The Goblin Problem

[Artofregicide]

Hey folks, this is a serious one - all I ask is that people try to be respectful when they post, because this is a genuine IRL issue. If you don't think it's actually an issue, please move along.

So I've made my peace with green Kender Goblins being a core playable race, and the significant shift in Goblin alignment and lore. Honestly, I was never in camp "Always Evil" for any humanoid ancestry.

But recent (and some not so recent) conversation has suggested the origins of Goblins has an antisemitic bent, carried through to some very modern and very popular fantasy series. It's a whole can of worms, but I'd like to stay focused on goblins specifically.

While I don't think this applies to The Lost Omens/Golarion setting, it does affect a very core part of Paizo's identity.

For my part, I am not Jewish (or semitic in any definition of the word) but have close friends who are and haven't heard anything about this at all. Nor have I heard any reference to Paizo.

This came up when I was researching names for my podcast (we're going to start recording within the month, finally) and thought the term Goblin was appropriate to my podcast conceptually. But I also don't want to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

The opinions of those who are directly impacted is strongly requested, and again, if you don't think antisemitism in fantasy or folklore is real just move along.

Most of all, let's be respectful to each other.

Thanks.

[CrystalSeas]

Artofregicide wrote:

Hey folks, this is a serious one - all I ask is that people try to be respectful when they post, because this is a genuine IRL issue.

<snip>

So I've made my peace with green Kender Goblins being a core playable race,

So, are you joking or are you serious? Hard to tell from your post.

And what are you looking for? Permission from people who identify as "semitic" to use "Goblin" as part of your podcast name?

Quote:

it does affect a very core part of Paizo's identity.

Or just a bunch of arguments about your podcast and Paizo as potential insensitive racists?

I'm flagging this because I don't see any way this discussion benefits you, posters on this board, or Paizo itself.

[Artofregicide]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

Hey folks, this is a serious one - all I ask is that people try to be respectful when they post, because this is a genuine IRL issue.

<snip>

So I've made my peace with green Kender Goblins being a core playable race,

So, are you joking or are you serious? Hard to tell from your post.

And what are you looking for? Permission from people who identify as "semitic" to use "Goblin" as part of your podcast name?

Quote:

it does affect a very core part of Paizo's identity.

Or just a bunch of arguments about your podcast and Paizo as potential insensitive racists?

I'm flagging this because I don't see any way this discussion benefits you, posters on this board, or Paizo itself.

To clarify:

I'm being serious in this post. The green Kender joke was... a joke.

I'm looking for whether people who identify as semitic are discussing this issue, as generally any respectful opinions on the matter. A lot of people claim to speak for communities they're not a part of.

My researching podcast is why I came across this issue, otherwise it's unrelated. None of my Jewish friends have ever mentioned this.

I am certain that Paizo is neither insensitive and racist, they've a proven history of going out of their way to be inclusive.

As the Goblins are a pretty core part of Paizo product identify, I thought it was worth mentioning.

I do appreciate your concern, but I think you've demonstrated the kind of unconstructive comment that probably would have best been left unposted.

You've made your point, please move on.

[Artofregicide]

CrystalSeas wrote:

I'm sincerely curious about your goal here. What do you expect as an outcome from posting this?

I genuinely wanted respectful conversation about whether Goblins are offensive to people, especially in the context of Paizo and the Lost Omens Campaign setting.

Look, I'm not sure if you're just trolling me or if you've genuinely found something objectionable in my post. If it's the second, can you explain what you take issue with in a polite, respectful way? I'm trying to offer you the same - and do so to all posters if I can. I'm not perfect, I'll be the first to admit that. But if I can communicate my question more successfully and without stirring up negativity, that's a win for everyone. I think this is a topic that deserves serious and respectful conversation, especially from those who are most directly affected.

If I've come off as a jerk, insensitive, or otherwise offensive I'm sorry. That's not my intent, and I'm always learning. The internet does not need more unkindness.

[James Jacobs]

Our portrayal of goblins began over ten years ago with Burnt Offerings and sprang from Wayne's design of them for the cover of that book and was largely and initially spearheaded by myself for that adventure. Over the years, we have adjusted portrayals of characters and peoples in Pathfinder as we've become more aware of unintentional harm our portrayals have caused, but in that time I've not heard any such complaints about our goblins in particular. The only cultural point of innspiration I'm aware of as having influenced me in particular for Pathfinder's gobilns were the various little monster movies from the 80s (Gremlins, Ghoulies, Critters, etc.), Stitch (from Lilo & Stitch, my favorite Disney movie), and of course Wayne's design. Most of the goblin lore, such as their appreciation of songs, their fear/hatred of dogs and horses, their fear of writing, their love of pickles and sour food, their knack for turning junk into deadly weapons, the fact that they're often found dwelling along coastal regions and are talented scavengers of flotsam, their love of fire, their voracious appetites, the fact that they get stuck easily, and their knack for sneaking were made up by me (which is to say, the melange of imagination and creativity that is me as a result of my particular upbringing and interests over my years).

If there IS particular elements of antisemitism in goblins, they're unknown to me, and I'd very much appreciate knowing where I can better myself about this by educating myself about my ignorance.

If those elements were introduced to goblins by other authors over the past decade-plus, as creative director, I'd like to know about that as well so I can direct our developers and authors appropriately to avoid those elements.

If its elements introduced to goblins for other settings or worlds that aren't Paizo things, there's not much I can do to stop that but I'd still like to know about it.

We can't fix our errors if we don't know they're errors, and the OP in this thread doesn't cite details or examples other than vague mentions of things maybe or maybe not existing, and that doesn't help us improve as writers.

That said, the word "goblin" has existed for a LONG time, and it's been used as an insult to people all over the place. As has pretty much every other monster name. And lots more. We can't and shouldn't avoid use of words like these when they're applied to appropriate subjects, but we absolutely should avoid using them to insult cultures.

TL;DR: If this is something we've actually done at Paizo, it was an error out of ignorance and I need specific examples. If it's something done elsewhere by other people, implications that Paizo is doing the same are inappropriate in a worst-case scenario, or off-topic in a best case scenario... in that case this topic shouldn't be in the Lost Omens messageboards.

To the OP: I suspect you're getting pushback from others here because of a perception that this topic is coming out of the proverbial left field, which some folks might think of as an attempt to stir up trouble. It seems apparent that this isn't your goal to me, but I hope you can see how some folks may have taken the way you approached this topic and the place you chose to present the topic as possibly encouraging such a reaction.

[Kevin Mack]

This could have something to do with a certain Youtuber in the warhammer community who has done things like compare jews to a creature called gnoblars (Basically a type of goblim in Warhammer fantasy/ AOS who collect junk and have big noses)

[Artofregicide]

James Jacobs wrote:

Great Wisdom

Thanks for the level-headed and insightful response. This is brand new to me too, which is why I'm asking. I genuinely don't know and I don't want to unknowingly hurt people.

As far as I'm concerned, I think Paizo has done a fantastic job at with being sensitive and inclusive. Also admitting where you've made mistakes and then addressing them.

I don't can't point to any cases of this in Paizo products, and I'd be surprised to find any. Paizo Goblins are there own wonderful thing.

I'm more than happy to have this thread moved to a more appropriate forum. I wasn't really sure where was appropriate, sorry.

I agree I did a poor job of communicating my concerns and acknowledge that. I'll try to do better in the future.

Thanks again.

[Freehold DM]

I have heard this before, but never aimed at Pathfinder goblins. They are distinct enough to avoid such concerns, but still, it is wise to tread carefully.

[Artofregicide]

Oh, the specific examples I've seen most prominently recently are Harry Potter and Tolkien, though there's strong arguments that it's folklore in general.

AskHistorians Reddit Thread

This is an older thread, a lot of the stuff I've seen or been told about is on social media (which broadly I don't use).

[thejeff]

Artofregicide wrote:

Oh, the specific examples I've seen most prominently recently are Harry Potter and Tolkien, though there's strong arguments that it's folklore in general.

AskHistorians Reddit Thread

This is an older thread, a lot of the stuff I've seen or been told about is on social media (which broadly I don't use).

I was looking at that, but the specific association there is Cornish "knockers" which are like folklore goblins, but not actually the same name.

I think it's pretty tenuous for goblins in general - though some specific more modern fantasy uses could be.

[NECR0G1ANT]

I've know that Potterverse goblins were criticized as being anti-Semitic caricature, but that is not true of goblins in general nor of Paizo's portrayal specifically.

[Albatoonoe]

There have been antisemitic tropes associated with goblins in Dungeons and Dragons. However, all of those traits simply haven't been kept with Pathfinder's portrayal of goblins. PF's goblins are more like Mogwai than anything else.

[Artofregicide]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

I've know that Potterverse goblins were criticized as being anti-Semitic caricature, but that is not true of goblins in general nor of Paizo's portrayal specifically.

I would agree that it's not true of Paizo goblins, and I'm not really qualified to say either way historically.

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

But I don't think JK Rowling's portrayal came from nowhere. *shrug*

[NECR0G1ANT]

Artofregicide wrote:

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

I strongly disagree with the view that Tolkien's dwarves are meant to be Jewish. My interpretation is that Tolkien wrote dwarves to reflect Scottish national stereotypes. Middle-Earth dwarves are "Scottish" in that they like mining, ale, and have Scottish accents in the films.

[zimmerwald1915]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

I strongly disagree with the view that Tolkien's dwarves are meant to be Jewish. My interpretation is that Tolkien wrote dwarves to reflect Scottish national stereotypes. Middle-Earth dwarves are "Scottish" in that they like mining, ale, and have Scottish accents in the films.

Khuzdul takes its cues from Semitic languages, rings of power drive them to greed and hucksterism, and the Longbeards (the dwarf people group we see most) are most strongly defined by their experience of exile. The Jewish coding is all but explicit.

That said, I have heard nothing similar about either folkloric goblins or Pathfinder goblins. As mentioned above, Rowling's goblins are coded Jewish (which given her other. . . proclivities implies very unfortunate things), but that's just in Harry Potter. So if OP wants a "Semitic person's" (ugh) stamp of approval to use goblins, there it is.

[NECR0G1ANT]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

I strongly disagree with the view that Tolkien's dwarves are meant to be Jewish. My interpretation is that Tolkien wrote dwarves to reflect Scottish national stereotypes. Middle-Earth dwarves are "Scottish" in that they like mining, ale, and have Scottish accents in the films.

Khuzdul takes its cues from Semitic languages, rings of power drive them to greed and hucksterism, and the Longbeards (the dwarf people group we see most) are most strongly defined by their experience of exile. The Jewish coding is all but explicit.

Greed is another Scottish stereotype, exile and diaspora are by no means exclusively Jewish experiences, and I doubt the dwarves' flight from Smaug is a metaphor for religous persecution. I'm also not convinced that Tolkien "taking cues" from a real-world language means the speakers of that fictional language represent speakers of any nondictional language, although you may know more details than I do.

Another problems with decoding Dwarves as Jewish rather than Scottish is that the other Dwarven cultural traits I outlined fit Scottish national stereotypes but not anti-Semitic ones.

I'm less familiar with Tolkien's other works. Did he ever say anything publicly that suggested personal anti-Semitism?

[Michael Sayre]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

I strongly disagree with the view that Tolkien's dwarves are meant to be Jewish. My interpretation is that Tolkien wrote dwarves to reflect Scottish national stereotypes. Middle-Earth dwarves are "Scottish" in that they like mining, ale, and have Scottish accents in the films.

Modern fantasy stereotypes of dwarves hew that direction, yes, but Tolkien did in fact model his dwarves after the Jewish people, at least to an extent. I scraped up a couple quick articles on Google for reference, but it's a relatively well-known thing among Tolkien historical buffs.

Tolkien was an interesting figure for his time, in that he was actually kind of the opposite of a racist by the standards of his day, but much of what he put into his stories was informed by his views on and interactions with other real-world cultures. This has since become the seeds of more problematic fantasy elements that continued to evolve in the genre since (probably the most infamous of which is Tolkien's description of orcs as being visually similar to "the least attractive type of Mongols, at least to Western sensibilities").

The evolution of fantasy is interesting, though. Tolkien's orcs and goblins were the same thing, indistinguishable from each other and both words being primarily used by other factions in Middle-Earth to describe them, while their own names for themselves were a bit more complex. Paizo's orcs and goblins are obviously both significantly distinct from each other, but also from Tolkien's orcs/goblins, with some overlap from Tolkien's work split out between Paizo's two separate ancestries.

Fantasy is fundamentally appropriative, and it kind of has to be, because as Stephen Radney-MacFarland once noted, fantasy is a language. If you only use the parts of the language that came from Europe, then you're excluding people by shutting out the elements of fantasy that speak to them. Ideally, you're going to have people who are from a culture adding that culture's words and views to the language of fantasy, but they might not realize the door is unlocked for them to do so unless you crack it open a bit first. Among some communities, fantasy can be treated as surprisingly tightly gated, unfortunately. So you need to pull from the very deep, very wide trough that is the mythology and folklore of the entire world. This also means you'll run into issues, because mythology is formed from human ideology, and almost no human ideology is without problematic elements. That's where fantasy gives us a unique opportunity, though. In the real world, we cannot excise harmful ideologies from the stories we tell, particularly historical ones, because to do so would be to erase lessons that shaped us and which can, hopefully, make us better. But fantasy gives us a different possibility: the option to shape and share a world that is different, that can grow, and which can model better ways of understanding both the people and creatures within that promote healthier, wiser, more original, and more nuanced portrayals of concepts that can evolve far beyond their real-world roots.

Moreover, very little in fantasy is original. Tolkien's goblins were a mishmash of European lore and Tolkien's experiences with the world around him. They've seen constant changes and evolutions over the years and through the hands of different stewards, and today you can scarcely look at the Uruk-hai of the Lord of the Rings movies and recognize that they share the same roots as the small, football-headed pyromaniacs of Golarion. And that's good. Because fantasy, like all other languages, should be continually shaped by the voices that speak it and the hands that write it. And if we're doing what we should, those hands and voices will continue to come from an increasingly larger and more diverse community that will add its perceptions and experiences to the way we talk about things and portray them.

[Unicore]

As a Jew and a massive fantasy nerd, I have always thought of the Dwarves of Tolkien as Jewish and I believe he made comments later in life explicitly stating that he drew heavily on Jewish themes, more so than Norse mythology in the construction of his dwarves. Even with the obviously problematic associations of greed and close mindedness, Tolkien portrayals never bothered me personally, or anyone I know, mainly because a lot of the other aspects of jewish culture that were borrowed, as far as language, and the power of the written word in the form of runes was such a cool way to visualize my culture brought forward into fantasy. In other words it didn't feel like a half-hearted attempt at derogatory appropriation for comedic value.

As far as goblins go, Rowling's portrayal of goblins did make me feel quite uncomfortable, because it was the exact opposite of Tolkien's efforts. There was nothing interesting about the portrayal and it did feel like it was pulling on only the vilest stereotypes and just to create some comic relief. Other portrayals of goblins in popular culture have drawn on some stereotypes of jewish people as well, but it can be difficult to separate out whether people were trying to associate Jews with the negative aspects of mythical creatures from folklore, or if people were shaping the monsters of folklore around jewish stereotypes (getting to what James Jacobs was talking about earlier).

For example Goblins/Kobolds and other gremlins of European Folklore appear in ashkenazi folklore as well, and do so in ways that are much more similar to Pathfinder portrayals of goblins than in more problematic depictions of goblins. I have never ever considered pathfinder goblins to be a depiction of Jewish people and very much enjoy the way that they have been evolving as an ancestry into pathfinder 2E.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Michael Sayre wrote:

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

I strongly disagree with the view that Tolkien's dwarves are meant to be Jewish. My interpretation is that Tolkien wrote dwarves to reflect Scottish national stereotypes. Middle-Earth dwarves are "Scottish" in that they like mining, ale, and have Scottish accents in the films.

Modern fantasy stereotypes of dwarves hew that direction, yes, but Tolkien did in fact model his dwarves after the Jewish people, at least to an extent. I scraped up a couple quick articles on Google for reference, but it's a relatively well-known thing among Tolkien historical buffs.

Tolkien was an interesting figure for his time, in that he was actually kind of the opposite of a racist by the standards of his day, but much of what he put into his stories was informed by his views on and interactions with other real-world cultures. This has since become the seeds of more problematic fantasy elements that continued to evolve in the genre since (probably the most infamous of which is Tolkien's description of orcs as being visually similar to "the least attractive type of Mongols, at least to Western sensibilities").

Well, I stand corrected. I'm glad to know Tolkien wasn't an anti-Semite.

[thejeff]

Tolkien's letter in response to an immediately pre-War (1938?) inquiry from a German publisher wanting to know if he was sufficiently Aryan for them to publish:

Quote:

Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

[thejeff]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

I know that Tolkien's dwarves were almost explicitly "Jewish", and they had basically nothing to do with goblins (admittedly, that's a whole other can of worms).

I strongly disagree with the view that Tolkien's dwarves are meant to be Jewish. My interpretation is that Tolkien wrote dwarves to reflect Scottish national stereotypes. Middle-Earth dwarves are "Scottish" in that they like mining, ale, and have Scottish accents in the films.

Khuzdul takes its cues from Semitic languages, rings of power drive them to greed and hucksterism, and the Longbeards (the dwarf people group we see most) are most strongly defined by their experience of exile. The Jewish coding is all but explicit.

Greed is another Scottish stereotype, exile and diaspora are by no means exclusively Jewish experiences, and I doubt the dwarves' flight from Smaug is a metaphor for religous persecution. I'm also not convinced that Tolkien "taking cues" from a real-world language means the speakers of that fictional language represent speakers of any nondictional language, although you may know more details than I do.

Another problems with decoding Dwarves as Jewish rather than Scottish is that the other Dwarven cultural traits I outlined fit Scottish national stereotypes but not anti-Semitic ones.

I'm less familiar with Tolkien's other works. Did he ever say anything publicly that suggested personal anti-Semitism?

I don't really see any of those as Scottish traits specificly? Are the Scots known as miners? I tend to think of sheep.

I'd say much of Tolkien dwarves comes from the original sources, mixed up with the cultures of those sources. The mining and craftsmanship from old Norse myths and the drinking and general look from the old Vikings themselves. The language was definitely influenced by Jewish. The exile thing certainly plays into it, though I'm not sure which way the causation goes.

As far as I can tell, the Scottish association is relatively recent - possibly a way to get across a kind of "northern" association with a recognizable accent in English? There's nothing in the speech patterns in Tolkien's actual text that touches Scottish. I don't believe the original Hobbit cartoon film had Scottish dwarves. LotR definitely did. Any Scottish media dwarves before that? Even non-Tolkien ones.

[Artofregicide]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Khuzdul takes its cues from Semitic languages, rings of power drive them to greed and hucksterism, and the Longbeards (the dwarf people group we see most) are most strongly defined by their experience of exile. The Jewish coding is all but explicit.

That said, I have heard nothing similar about either folkloric goblins or Pathfinder goblins. As mentioned above, Rowling's goblins are coded Jewish (which given her other. . . proclivities implies very unfortunate things), but that's just in Harry Potter. So if OP wants a "Semitic person's" (ugh) stamp of approval to use goblins, there it is.

I admit I probably don't know the correct term to use here. No offense was meant, only ignorance. I'm happy to update my vocabulary.

I've decided against using the term for several reasons, one of which is just simply avoid unnecessary contention.

I'm not looking for anyone's "stamp of approval" nor do I expect a handful of posters on the internet to represent an extensive and diverse population.

But I did want to get some feedback, and what I've heard is helpful. If for no other reason than reassurance that Paizo has done a good job of extricating itself from any negative stereotypes or racist coding, should it exist in this specific case.

[GralphidB]

Goblins, like much of pathfinder content, derives from various folklore. These folklore sources have all the same biases and stereotypes that the culture they are embedded in. Since goblins (and kobolds, dwarves etc.) come from Europe, they have a fair amount of antisemitic junk included within them since medieval Europe was rife with antisemitism. So these myths and legends inevitably picked up antisemitic overtones in various subtle and overt ways over time.

Rowling's Goblins are particularly bad in that they took those tropes (small, hunchbacked, obsessed with gold) and ramped them up to 11 (bankers, disloyal separatists). Paizo, to its credit has gone in opposite directions, adding things like their fear/hatred of dogs and horses that to me (as a Jewish person) don't feel like continuations of that trope, but rather making them a separate and unique thing. I don't feel particular uncomfortable with them as written, although I think a DM could certainly use them in problematic ways.

[James Jacobs]

GralphidB wrote:

Goblins, like much of pathfinder content, derives from various folklore. These folklore sources have all the same biases and stereotypes that the culture they are embedded in. Since goblins (and kobolds, dwarves etc.) come from Europe, they have a fair amount of antisemitic junk included within them since medieval Europe was rife with antisemitism. So these myths and legends inevitably picked up antisemitic overtones in various subtle and overt ways over time.

Rowling's Goblins are particularly bad in that they took those tropes (small, hunchbacked, obsessed with gold) and ramped them up to 11 (bankers, disloyal separatists). Paizo, to its credit has gone in opposite directions, adding things like their fear/hatred of dogs and horses that to me (as a Jewish person) don't feel like continuations of that trope, but rather making them a separate and unique thing. I don't feel particular uncomfortable with them as written, although I think a DM could certainly use them in problematic ways.

The word "goblin" derives from folkore, and we certainly kept the fact that goblins in Pathfinder are small sized and monstrous looking, but as I detailed above, Pathfinder goblins are not based on a real-world mythological goblin legend from a specific real-world culture.

[Ianesta]

I always figured the Dwarves as being an antisemitic stereotype. Traditionally I mean, not specifically for Paizo.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ianesta wrote:

I always figured the Dwarves as being an antisemitic stereotype.

There's a difference between "coded Jewish" and "an anti-Semitic stereotype." Same for every people-group you care to name. The trick is finding the line - it's not always in the same place.

[Deserk]

There is some wonderfully lost irony to all this. Allow me to illustrate:

Certainly-not-prejudiced-at-all Wokicists: "Goblins like shiny things... hey, who else does that sound like?!"

[Darth Game Master]

Ah, the classic "acknowledging potential stereotypes makes you the real bigot" argument.

(Not that I think Paizo is being antisemitic in this case, but that line of thinking is ridiculous. You do not have to BELIEVE a stereotype in order to recognize that it is harmful to a specific group)

[Freehold DM]

Darth Game Master wrote:

Ah, the classic "acknowledging potential stereotypes makes you the real bigot" argument.

(Not that I think Paizo is being antisemitic in this case, but that line of thinking is ridiculous. You do not have to BELIEVE a stereotype in order to recognize that it is harmful to a specific group)

So its like Freddy Kruger that way?

[Davor Firetusk]

There will always be lines to navigate, but hopefully the tools being suggested to solve the problem will tell you where the lines are...

With these purely qualitative approaches that doesn't really seem to be happening. For example how much heavy lifting does 'greedy' by itself do in signaling to someone that there might be antiSemitic content? In a number of the examples people have come up with it is a very small list of adjectives/ descriptors. In the case of greedy, I'm suggesting the connection to historical anti-Semitism is strong enough that it can easily set the table for someone else to find other pieces of description that confirm some version of stereotype. No one has mentioned the Kalistocrats yet, but the combination of money obsessed and esoteric religious based cleanliness standards could be argued to be a Jewish analogue. Zimmerwald even used the term coded Jewish. The fact that people are assuming 'codes', or code words only adds the potential for a conspiracy theory type mindset to make it confusing at best where the trouble spots are.

Another way to think about this is something called effect size in statistics. Namely even if there is a real basis, how much does it contribute to the problem? Working super hard to determine whether or not Goblins are secretly promoting stereotypes that the vast majority of people have missed does not sound like the way to get the biggest amount of Social Justice accomplished

[Darth Game Master]

I think you're making coding out to be a much more complex thing than it really is. It essentially refers to a fictional group/culture or character being modeled after something in reality. It isn't necessarily positive or negative. To use a Pathfinder example, people from Osirion are Egyptian coded.

I think it's called coded because the writing uses traits (or at least perceived traits) of a real thing to present their creation as a fantastical translation of it, but don't make it literally that thing. Hence why (in my above example) it's called Osirion rather than Egypt or Misr.

[Darth Game Master]

Freehold DM wrote:

Darth Game Master wrote:

Ah, the classic "acknowledging potential stereotypes makes you the real bigot" argument.

(Not that I think Paizo is being antisemitic in this case, but that line of thinking is ridiculous. You do not have to BELIEVE a stereotype in order to recognize that it is harmful to a specific group)

So its like Freddy Kruger that way?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. To clarify, I'm simply pointing out this: the claim that the person worrying about the perpetuation of a stereotype is *themselves* contributing to that stereotype makes no sense, and is a common tactic to deflect criticism without actually engaging with it, regardless of whether said criticism is valid or not.

[zimmerwald1915]

Davor Firetusk wrote:

No one has mentioned the Kalistocrats yet, but the combination of money obsessed and esoteric religious based cleanliness standards could be argued to be a Jewish analogue.

Oh, can we talk about that? Last time I tried to bring it up I got pointedly ignored.

(Granted, it was in a thread about Varisians and Romani, and wasn't exactly on topic, but still.)

[PossibleCabbage]

Paizo has messed up this sort of thing in the past (the Charau-Ka and the orcs in the PF2 playtest come to mind) but their goblins seem more based on "what if raccoons learned how to start fires" than anything else with a real world analogue.

Like the reason we call them "Goblins" and not "glazbreezles" is that no one knows what the latter is, and the former at least puts you in the correct general area via things like "greenish skin", "small", "sharp teeth", "hairless", and "big ears" which you see in a lot of different versions of goblins.

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't think Paizo's goblins are coded Jewish or anything even remotely resembling it.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Davor Firetusk wrote:

No one has mentioned the Kalistocrats yet, but the combination of money obsessed and esoteric religious based cleanliness standards could be argued to be a Jewish analogue.

Oh, can we talk about that? Last time I tried to bring it up I got pointedly ignored.

Kalistocrats are a lot closer, at least to the extent that a real-world bigot could definitely lean into this comparison if they desired.

I'd personally argue that the very specific nature of Kalistocrat standards, philosophy, and origins make this clearly not the intent...but they're a lot closer to being an issue than goblins are, and I think the discussion about the issue is probably worth having.

[CorvusMask]

I hear Kalistocrats being compared to Mormons(only in sense of cleanliness though) more often but then again I guess antisemitism isn't really common over here?(I could be wrong though, but I think most commonly discriminated minority over here are romani)

[Davor Firetusk]

I'll try and refine my point a bit. My suggestion is this,because at best all of this is vague a single perceived negative cultural trait can alert people to try and find a pattern, any use of these negative traits is going to create the same problem. We know that humans love to obsess over finding patterns. The solution ends up being not using any of these traits, which seems incredibly impoverishing to producing a rich fictional setting.

[The Raven Black]

Thanks to this thread, I discovered that goblin comes from Medieval Latin gobelinus in Orderic Vitalis before 1141, which was the name of a devil or daemon haunting the country around Évreux, Normandy.

I live approximately 10 miles from Evreux. I am very happy to share some link with Paizo's beloved mascot.

I already discovered that I might have common ancestors with the awesome Mr. Daigle.

Guess we're all a big family after all and it surely is a small world :-D

[MMCJawa]

Goblins are french in origin, and early in their history were largely considered malevolent mischievous spirits, many times associated with households. Later they were depicted as more demonic creatures, and considered to be witches familiars.Gobli-like creatures are a very very common archetype in folklore. Most cultures have some variation of goblins, even if the description and the degree of evilness varies.

I've heard the "goblin as "Jewish caricature", but this is solely based off a recent trend in some fantasy works to spin them as a greedy and clever long-nosed mercantile race. I don't think I ever encountered that before the 2000's,

[Sara Marie]

Thank you to folks contributing to the thread. I think we'll wrap it up here to avoid going off the rails and into the weeds.