Hello reader! So as the title says I’m looking for some clarification of a “grey area” or two for stacking archetypes.
I understand that you can’t have two archetypes that replace, alter, or alter than replace the same ability, but what about archetypes that have a skill that doesn’t directly effect a ability? Like an ability that says something like “This ability lets you add a +2 to your attack and damage rolls when your weapon training bonus reaches +3, 3 times a day.” It’s not altering weapon training but giving you a separate bonus. Would something like this be a conflict of archetypes or would it be more similar to multiclassing where you have some skills you don’t utilize for your build. Along with that what if you have an archetype that limits your regluar class choices, like how some ranger archetypes say you can only a certain combat style, but then the other archetype replaces one of the combat style feats you gain?
I appreciate any and all help given, and if there is any other issue I missed or something you personally feel is important to stacking archetypes please let me know. Thank you!
At the very bottom of each class ability, it will say "This [Alters/Replaces] X". There is no grey area.
For your Ranger thing, while it makes sense they can stack, RAW they don't. They both alter Combat Style Feats, as selecting the combat style and gaining the feat are the same class feature.
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without knowing the specifics the answer is that no, they probably don't stack.
It doesn't matter what the ability its self is. What matters is the line that follows the ability. If both archetypes affect the same class feature then they don't stack.
For example. If Archetype A makes Stealth, Use Magic Device and Climb class skills and Archetype B Makes Swim a class skill. By RAW the two archetypes do not stack because they both alter your class skills. Even though there's obviously zero conflict between the two archetypes.
There are archetypes like this that by RAW do not stack, but which most DMs would probably allow to stack if you brought it up to them and asked.
Your first example is one ability, but what are you looking at for the second which might or might not conflict?
The hooded champion is required to take the archery combat style, and the beast master replaces the L6 combat style feat. These are compatible IMO. Is that what you're asking?
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Not enough info to answer your first question. Which archetype are you referring to?
For your second question (ranger with a required combat style and a replaced feat) the answer is, unfortunately, that there's going to be some GM interpretation in play. Not every archetype uses the "this alters class feature X" language. If the "required combat style" is literally just "you must choose style Y" then a lot of GMs will allow them to stack, but with one important caveat.
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability.
Let's say you are an Elemental Envoy/Beast Master ranger. Elemental envoy forces you to choose elemental combat style. At level 6 you get the beast master's Improved Empathic Link instead of a combat style feat. When you get your next bonus combat style feat (10th level) you must choose from the feats normally available to a 6th-level ranger instead of a 10th-level ranger.
Not enough info to answer your first question. Which archetype are you referring to?
For your second question (ranger with a required combat style and a replaced feat) the answer is, unfortunately, that there's going to be some GM interpretation in play. Not every archetype uses the "this alters class feature X" language. If the "required combat style" is literally just "you must choose style Y" then a lot of GMs will allow them to stack, but with one important caveat.
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability.Let's say you are an Elemental Envoy/Beast Master ranger. Elemental envoy forces you to choose elemental combat style. At level 6 you get the beast master's Improved Empathic Link instead of a combat style feat. When you get your next bonus combat style feat (10th level) you must choose from the feats normally available to a 6th-level ranger instead of a 10th-level ranger.
Thank you for answering even though I didn’t explain the first question very well. avr and you both understood my second question for stacking archetypes. I wasn’t sure if the mandatory combat style would be considered a alteration since it still levels and preforms just like the base form. As for the first question let me put it this way:
I’ve decided I’m going fighter and I have Archetype A which replaces Weapon Training with its own unique ability. Archetype B which replaces Armor Training for a alteration to Weapon Training. Finally Archetype C which replaces Bravery and gives me a skill I can only use once my Weapon Training reaches +3.
Now I obviously can’t stack A with B or C since A removes Weapon Training, but what about stacking B and C? B alters Weapon Training but still gives me the increasing bonus as I level, so would I be able stack B and C together?
Your first example is one ability, but what are you looking at for the second which might or might not conflict?
The hooded champion is required to take the archery combat style, and the beast master replaces the L6 combat style feat. These are compatible IMO. Is that what you're asking?
Yes! Thats exactly what I’m asking!
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Yes! Thats exactly what I’m asking!Your first example is one ability, but what are you looking at for the second which might or might not conflict?
The hooded champion is required to take the archery combat style, and the beast master replaces the L6 combat style feat. These are compatible IMO. Is that what you're asking?
I would let these two stack. The only "alteration" hooded champion makes to Combat Style is to say that you have to take archery combat style. And it doesn't even say that it is an alteration.
The Hooded Champion's Combat Style is written messily. (Actually, probably a copy/paste or copyfitting error.) The first part should be its own entry:
Combat Style: At 2nd level, the hooded champion must select the archery combat style.
and the second part should actually be part of Deeds, making that whole ability read:
Deeds: At 1st level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s derring-do and dodging panache deeds. He also gains the deeds below at the levels indicated. For all deeds, treat the hooded champion’s ranger level as his swashbuckler level.
Dead Aim (Ex): At 1st level, the hooded champion can spend 1 panache point when making a single ranged attack (not a full attack) with a bow to make a ranged touch attack instead. The target must be in the bow’s first range increment.
At 3rd level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s kip-up deed as well as the following deed.
Hooded Champion’s Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, while the hooded champion has at least 1 panache point, he gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Also, if he has the Quick Draw feat, his hands are free and unrestrained, and his weapon isn’t hidden, then he can draw a single bow as part of the initiative check.
At 9th level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s grace and evasive deeds. At 16th level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s edge and cheat death deeds. This ability replaces wild empathy, endurance, evasion, and improved evasion.
Those abilities actually line up with the replaced class features.
I would let these two stack. The only "alteration" hooded champion makes to Combat Style is to say that you have to take archery combat style. And it doesn't even say that it is an alteration.
The Hooded Champion's Combat Style is written messily. (Actually, probably a copy/paste or copyfitting error.) The first part should be its own entry:
Combat Style: At 2nd level, the hooded champion must select the archery combat style.
and the second part should actually be part of Deeds, making that whole ability read:
...Deeds: At 1st level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s derring-do and dodging panache deeds. He also gains the deeds below at the levels indicated. For all deeds, treat the hooded champion’s ranger level as his swashbuckler level.
Dead Aim (Ex): At 1st level, the hooded champion can spend 1 panache point when making a single ranged attack (not a full attack) with a bow to make a ranged touch attack instead. The target must be in the bow’s first range increment.
At 3rd level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s kip-up deed as well as the following deed.
Hooded Champion’s Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, while the hooded champion has at least 1 panache point, he gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Also, if he has the Quick Draw feat, his hands are free and unrestrained, and his weapon isn’t hidden, then he can draw a single bow as part of the initiative check.
At 9th level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s grace and evasive deeds. At 16th level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s edge and cheat death
It’s not the only one written that way, the Divine Marksman and Shapeshifter archetypes have a mandatory combat style as well.
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I’ve decided I’m going fighter and I have Archetype A which replaces Weapon Training with its own unique ability. Archetype B which replaces Armor Training for a alteration to Weapon Training. Finally Archetype C which replaces Bravery and gives me a skill I can only use once my Weapon Training reaches +3. Now I obviously can’t stack A with B or C since A removes Weapon Training, but what about stacking B and C? B alters Weapon Training but still gives me the increasing bonus as I level, so would I be able stack B and C together?
I'm not sure if you're deliberately being vague to avoid tipping off someone (GM? another player?) about your plans or if this is purely in the realm of hypothetical. If you tell us the archetype names it would be much easier to give you an answer.
It really depends on how the archetypes are written. If C really does say "you may use this ability once your weapon training bonus reaches +3" and B keeps an ability called "Weapon Training" that continues to increase in numbers as you level then yes, they would stack. (Assuming nothing else conflicts.)
However if C says "this ability alters weapon training 3" or "this ability replaces weapon training 3" then they may not stack. They may not stack at all, or it may delay functionality for another 5 levels (per the quote on "series of improvements" I posted above).
I'm not sure if you're deliberately being vague to avoid tipping off someone (GM? another player?) about your plans or if this is purely in the realm of hypothetical. If you tell us the archetype names it would be much easier to give you an answer.
It really depends on how the archetypes are written. If C really does say "you may use this ability once your weapon training bonus reaches +3" and B keeps an ability called "Weapon Training" that continues to increase in numbers as you level then yes, they would stack. (Assuming nothing else conflicts.)
However if C says "this ability alters weapon training 3" or "this ability replaces weapon training 3" then they may not stack. They may not stack at all, or it may delay functionality for another 5 levels (per the quote on "series of improvements" I posted above).
I’m sorry, I’m honestly not trying to be vague, I was just curios in general. I’ve never stacked archetypes before and wanted to make sure I understood “stacking” as best as I could. Everyone has been really helpful and have answered all my questions. Thanks everyone ya’ll are awesome!
This is generally fine. For a personal favourite example, the Paladin's Hospitaler and Tempered Champion archetypes will stack.
Hospitaler modifies Channel Positive Energy to not consume uses of Lay on Hands, but does not actually modify Lay on Hands itself to do so.
Tempered Champion modifies Divine Bond to give you extra uses by spending uses of Lay on Hands instead, but again does not actually modify Lay on Hands.
As for the Hooded Champion/Beastmaster example, doesn't work.
Being required to choose a certain Combat Style modifies that entire feature; the later bonus feats are from the same feature's progression.
You could take archetypes that trade out the 2nd level feat and the 6th level feat independently, but what you'd be doing as a Hooded Champion/Beastmaster is like replacing a Fighter's Armor Training with Aldori Defender and then also trying to trade Armour Training 2 and 4 out with Cyber-Soldier.