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When taking an archetype dedication, there is AFAIK the requirement to take two additional feats from/for that archetype until a new dedication can be taken. So my question is, does this include additional feats?
As am example, the Archer Archetype in the APG lists several additional feats do this count towards the two additional feat requirement?
thanks,
"You can take the feat as an archetype feat of that level, meaning it counts toward the number of feats required by the archetype's dedication feat."
Yes they count.
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I have a similar question. If a archetype feat is marked as both an archetype and a skill feat, and I take it as a skill feat.
Does it count towards the two additional feat requirement?My hesitation is the example in the CRB pg 219, says they do not count as far as the Fighter Resiliency feat is concerned.
Fighter Resiliency specifically states class feats, whereas the Special entry for each dedication feat does not state class feats, but just feats in general.
You gain 3 additional Hit Points for each fighter archetype class feat you have. As you continue selecting fighter archetype class feats, you continue to gain additional Hit Points in this way.
You become trained in simple weapons and martial weapons. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC.
Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the fighter archetype.
Since some archetypes include (exclusive) skill feats in addition to class feats, it would make no sense to restrict your ability to select other dedication feats to class feats; otherwise, a character with Medic dedication, for example, could not take another dedication until 18th level, which is absurd.
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I have a similar question. If a archetype feat is marked as both an archetype and a skill feat, and I take it as a skill feat.
Does it count towards the two additional feat requirement?My hesitation is the example in the CRB pg 219, says they do not count as far as the Fighter Resiliency feat is concerned.
Darksol is correct, it applies to the two feats needed to get a new dedication, but not toward things that require archetype class feats, since it's a skill feat not a class feat.
However, I need to point out that you must take archetype skill feats as skill feats, you can't ever take them as a class feat.
It not works like skill feats that also have general trait where you can take both as skill feat or general feat?
I was thinking that Archetype feats could be taken as class or skill feat for same reason the the presense of archetype trait and skill trait. This won't break FA?
No. They only have the Skill trait, not Skill and General. None of them have General for that matter but it seems to support the idea that an Archetype Skill feat is not an Archetype Class feat. The core book explicitly states "These are not archetype class feats" which is hard to argue with.
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No. They only have the Skill trait, not Skill and General. None of them have General for that matter but it seems to support the idea that an Archetype Skill feat is not an Archetype Class feat. The core book explicitly states "These are not archetype class feats" which is hard to argue with.
General Feats, Core Rulebook pg. 68: "This section specifies the levels at which your character gains general feats. Most classes grant a general feat at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter. At each of these levels, you can select any general feat (including skill feats) as long as your character qualifies for it."
Skill trait, Core Rulebook pg. 636: "A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill. A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype's dedication feat."
So I don't think not having General as a trait matter as both the general feat feature and the Skill trait say you can spend general feats on skill feats.
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Okay, cool. We are talking about Archetype feats, which are Class feats not General feats. The book pretty clearly states an Archetype Skill feat is not a Class feat and to my knowledge none of them have the General trait either.
It not works like skill feats that also have general trait where you can take both as skill feat or general feat?
I was thinking that Archetype feats could be taken as class or skill feat for same reason the the presense of archetype trait and skill trait. This won't break FA?
Considering that you (usually) earn Class feats at the same levels as General feats, if you take both an Archetype Class feat and an Archetype Skill feat at the same level, you would already fulfill the "two archetype feat" restriction put forth by the dedication.
As for whether it working with General feats will break FA, it's doubtful. There are a handful of "mandatory" General feats, and they are far more infrequent compared to Skill and Class feats. As far as I know, only Humans (or ancestries with the Human trait if they take Adopted Ancestry) can have an abundance of General feats via General Training and Advanced General Training, which are done at the cost of Ancestry feats (which is almost a wash, since everyone gets 5 Ancestry feats and 5 General feats). So you are burning a more precious resource on a less precious resource to either have earlier or in addition to what you already have.
This would also mean that if you allowed someone to take an Archetype Skill feat as a General feat, it wouldn't break the game, so even if it is allowed (and the rules seem pretty specific on it working this way), players aren't more powerful as a result, since the cost (mostly) outweighs what your choice provides.
Okay, cool. We are talking about Archetype feats, which are Class feats not General feats. The book pretty clearly states an Archetype Skill feat is not a Class feat and to my knowledge none of them have the General trait either.
Let's review what Graystone quoted again:
A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype's dedication feat.
So the second sentence says that Archetype feats with the Skill trait state that they can be taken in place of a skill feat (slot) if you have the respective dedication feat selected. So taking Sentinel for example, if I take Sentinel Dedication, I can select Steel Skin in place of a skill feat at 4th level or higher.
Then, the first sentence says that feats with the Skill trait (of which Steel Skin is a feat with the Skill trait) can be selected when you gain a skill feat or a general feat. This means that either of these feat types can select feats with the Skill trait, and it doesn't make exceptions to whether they are Archetype feats or not.
Now, we have both the exception that a general feat can select either a feat with the Skill trait or a feat with the General trait (or both), and that archetype feats with the Skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat once you have the archetype dedication for it (of which you will, since the feat isn't otherwise available until you do).
With this in mind, it seems pretty self explanatory that, for example, I could select Sentinel Dedication at 2nd level, and then either take Steel Skin at 4th or 6th level as a skill feat, or 7th level as a general feat. All of these feat options are legal based on the above text, because this functionally works like a transitive property. If general feat slots can take skill feats, and archetype feats with the Skill trait count as skill feats, then you can take archetype skill feats with general feat slots.
Granted, I can see how you came to that conclusion, since it doesn't outright say that it's a skill feat, the issue is that the second sentence isn't an exclusive-based one; that is, it doesn't specify that archetype feats with the Skill trait can only be taken as a skill feat (and consequently not a general feat, of which the rules seem pretty adamant about being able to select skill feats in place of general feats).
And no, the General trait isn't required for you to spend a general feat slot on a skill feat, but it's required for you to acquire a feat with the General trait via, well, a general feat slot. It does fulfill the requirement if the feat (also) possesses the Skill trait, since it counts as, effectively, two types of feats.
Thank you Baarogue. The context argument accurately captures what I had wanted to express. This feels like a case of Specific overrides General. General feats follow certain rules and their subset General Skill feats expand on those rules. Class feats follow certain rules and their subset Archetype feats modify those rules. It does get confusing when Class feats come up with the sub-subset Archetype Skill feats. This has been a delightful delve into the book. On the subject of breaking or unbalancing Free Archetype if a GM allows it anyway? Seems unlikely.
You, uh, "forgot" the first sentence
A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill. A feat with this trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat. Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype's dedication feat.
219, 255"A general feat with the skill trait" is context that should not be discarded when reading the second sentence's, "A feat with this trait"
It then goes on to state that you can select an Archetype feat with the skill trait in place of a skill feat, but it doesn't say you can do so with a general feat
This is supported in the other two places that talk about skill feats, the pages at the end of that appendix entry
...There are infinite possible character concepts, but you might find that the feats and skill choices from a single class aren’t sufficient to fully realize your character. Archetypes allow you to expand the scope of your character’s class. Applying an archetype requires you to select archetype feats instead of class feats. Start by finding the archetype that best fits your character concept, and select the archetype’s dedication feat using one of your class feat choices. Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites. The archetype feat you select is still subject to any selection restrictions on the class feat it replaces. For example, if you gained an ability at 6th level that granted you a 4th-level class feat with the dwarf trait, you could swap out that class feat only for an archetype feat of 4th level or lower with the dwarf trait. Archetype feats you gain in place of a class feat are called archetype class feats.
Occasionally, an archetype feat works like a skill feat instead of a class feat. These archetype feats have the skill trait,
I didn't forget at all. The first sentence in the paragraph just exposits what a general feat with the skill trait usually is, it doesn't mean you can't select skill feats with general feats so long as it also has the general trait, because the second sentence contradicts that statement by saying that "a feat with this trait (the Skill trait) can be selected (as a feat) when a class grants a skill feat or general feat." It doesn't say "a general feat." It doesn't say "a skill feat." It just says "a feat." Which means any feat with the Skill trait, not just one that's a General feat. If the idea is that you can't select Skill feats as General feats unless they also have the General trait, they would just simply say this in the rules. But they don't.
Your first point of reference outright says that Archetype Skill feats have the Skill trait, which means that it falls under the second sentence of the Skill trait entry, which says that it can be selected when a class grants a Skill feat or General feat, so that makes no sense.
Your second point of reference says that "General feats include a subcategory of skill feats, which expand upon what you can accomplish via skills. These feats also have the skill trait." This isn't being debated.
The following sentence, however, discusses a different topic, by stating that "Most characters gain skill feats at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter." This is not talking about General feats anymore. And then the sentence afterward says "When you gain a skill feat [again, not a general feat, a skill feat], you must select a general feat with the skill trait; you can't select a general feat that lacks the skill trait." This is a restriction put forth on Skill feat selections, not General feat selections, and the restriction applies to General feats lacking the Skill trait, not General feats possessing the Skill trait. Because if this was the reverse, at no point could you select Steel Skin as a skill feat, because the feat lacking the General trait means it's not eligible to be taken as a Skill feat at any point in time.
At no point does this mean that General feats cannot select non-General Skill feats, because again, we have a sentence in the Skill trait stating that "a feat with this (Skill) trait can be selected when a class grants a skill feat or general feat." If Steel Skin has the Skill trait, then it's a feat with the Skill trait, and the sentence says it can be selected when a class grants either a Skill or General feat.
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Most classes grant a general feat at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter. At each of these levels, you can select any general feat (including skill feats) as long as your character qualifies for it.
It is very clear that all Skill feats are also a General feat even if they don't have the trait listed out explicitly.
Believe what you will, but clarity seems questionable. The book is very insistent that a feat with General and Skill as traits is still General. I suspect there was concern that the presence of both traits (General and Skill) would be confusing. Thus we get frequent reminders that General Skill feats are indeed still General. Did the first printing of 2e only label them Skill and not also General? That would help explain the over insistence that a feat with two traits in fact has two traits. Oh well, this is deep into "assuming authorial intent" territory. If the authors wanted to weigh in, there are established channels for Errata.
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Believe what you will, but clarity seems questionable. The book is very insistent that a feat with General and Skill as traits is still General. I suspect there was concern that the presence of both traits (General and Skill) would be confusing. Thus we get frequent reminders that General Skill feats are indeed still General. Did the first printing of 2e only label them Skill and not also General? That would help explain the over insistence that a feat with two traits in fact has two traits. Oh well, this is deep into "assuming authorial intent" territory. If the authors wanted to weigh in, there are established channels for Errata.
I've already referenced all the relevant rules, so there's no point in reposting them. That being said, the intent is quite clear when it's all pieced together.
A feat with the General and Skill traits are considered to be both; it's a General feat, and it's a Skill feat. The traits are what indicate this, which means we refer to the trait rules. The rules state that you can take a General feat with the Skill trait as either a Skill feat or a General feat, and that a General feat without the Skill trait can only be taken as a General feat, not as a Skill feat.
The only real issue is whether a feat with the Skill trait, but not the General trait, can be taken with a General feat, since the rules aren't exactly explicit on this, but the second sentence in the Skill trait entry states that the only thing you need to check for in regards to whether you can take a Skill feat as a General feat is if the feat in question has the Skill trait, and that if it's an Archetype Skill feat, that you have the relevant Archetype Dedication.
Again, taking the Steel Skin example, if I take Sentinel Dedication at 2nd level (fulfilling the Archetype Skill feat requirement of having the dedication), that means I can take Steel Skin either at 4th or 6th level for either of those Skill feat slots (since these slots let me take feats with the Skill trait on them), or 7th level as the General feat slot (again, because this slot lets me take feats with the Skill trait on them).
Now, would I want to take Steel Skin as a General feat? Probably not. There are far better, more unique options to take compared to this (and its real payoffs don't work out until much later anyway). But saying a player can't take Steel Skin as a General feat because it lacks the General trait is a misnomer because the Skill trait outright says you can take feats with the Skill trait as a General feat; only Skill feat slots specify that feats with the General trait must also have the Skill trait. The inverse of this (General feat slots can only take Skill feats as long as they have the General trait) is not true, and not specified in either the General or Skill trait entries.