| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Historically clone (spell) exist as a measure for arcane spellcasters, who distrust their "resurrection" been handled by anyone else but themselves. With reasonable downside of 1 week spellcasting.
On one side it's of course cool that as a ritual it now can potentially been handled by non-spellcasters.
On the other hand though... it requires 4 ritualist, and subject of cloning CAN'T bee one of ritualist. That alone negates secrecy of cloning, which often necessary (due to preference of cloning over a resurrection). Not mentioning that success of ritual obviously reduces with number of required ritual participants.
And of course 7 days takes only to perform ritual. Which alone reasonable time. But waiting 2d4 month afterward for clone to grown almost negate clone usefulness for a player character.
Every GM weeps.
The PF1 clone also took 2d4 months to grow, that hasn’t changed.
You remove 1 cubic inch of flesh from the target, who must be present throughout the ritual and can be one of the casters. You then use that flesh to grow a duplicate of the target's physical form that will house the target's soul upon death. This duplicate is physically identical to the original creature.
It looks that it can be one of the casters.
You remove 1 cubic inch of flesh from the target, who must be present throughout the ritual and can be one of the casters. You then use that flesh to grow a duplicate of the target's physical form that will house the target's soul upon death. This duplicate is physically identical to the original creature.It looks that it can be one of the casters.
Alright, misread that. Still requires 3 other participants, and clone grow time still impractically very long.
Keeping an emergency body lying around requires significant preparation time, including the assistance of assistants or accomplices. This is definitely not as powerful as the 1E version.
Hard disagree that it's a worse way for things to work, whether that clone is a PC or an NPC.
The weaknesses inherent in requiring assistance are plot hooks, in either direction.
Take the Ritualist Dedication. Take Efficient Ritual, Speedy Ritual, and Flexible Ritualist. Get two of your adventuring friends to help you cast it in seven hours, in a nice, safe Demiplane they also helped you set up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, this isn't too bad. The clone maturation time is the same as PF1.
It is kind of annoying that you need friends, but that's why you should make some.
True, you still need friends for that, but at least those friends wont know about the clone army you're making.
Convince your new friends you are helping them make their clone, taking the sample of their flesh. However swap in your flesh when they aren’t looking.
Then when the tower you were growing the clone in blows up they assume the clone body died, as you had secretly transported it.
Yeah, this isn't too bad. The clone maturation time is the same as PF1.
It is kind of annoying that you need friends, but that's why you should make some.
True, you still need friends for that, but at least those friends wont know about the clone army you're making.
i don't think they get you skills also it requires secondary 3 casters anyway so what is the point?
sigh this mania of making literally everything that a wizard could do RARE is so annoying
they should give the ritualist the ability to get rare ritual at high level and reduce more secondary casters at level 20
not that it matters a clone spell that can be blocked from working by pharasma is literally the same as not having the spell at all
Sigh. Pharasma saying it doesn’t get to work from a game perspective is literally the GM just saying ‘no.’
From an in-universe perspective, if she stopped every single incident of someone coming back to life, all of the other gods would have ended her by now.
Sigh. Pharasma saying it doesn’t get to work from a game perspective is literally the GM just saying ‘no.’
From an in-universe perspective, if she stopped every single incident of someone coming back to life, all of the other gods would have ended her by now.
"is literally the GM just saying no"
PRECISELY
Then you argue with your GM in game.
In PF2, this would be represented by your deity of choice going to have a ‘discussion’ with her, or bypassing her altogether like Urgothua did. I mean, you’re at least 18th level when you get the ability to even HAVE the ritual. That’s the point when even Archdevils and beings like Jatembe and Baba Yaga take you seriously.
Then you argue with your GM in game.
In PF2, this would be represented by your deity of choice going to have a ‘discussion’ with her, or bypassing her altogether like Urgothua did. I mean, you’re at least 18th level when you get the ability to even HAVE the ritual. That’s the point when even Archdevils and beings like Jatembe and Baba Yaga take you seriously.
i play as an atheist (more specifically i hate gods)
if you are ok with relying on deities and others then forget about clone and just contract a lawful cleric or outsider to resurrect you
then again if you are willing to bow to a deity then why even bother with coming back? just worship a good deity and go to heaven nirvana or elysiun
point is that you cant use it to avoid death from old age or even to avoid death forever anymore since pharasma is sure to stop it eventually
clone was the non-evil alternative to lichdom now if you want that serial murderer to leave you alone its either lichdom or godhood
Then you argue with your GM in game.
In PF2, this would be represented by your deity of choice going to have a ‘discussion’ with her, or bypassing her altogether like Urgothua did. I mean, you’re at least 18th level when you get the ability to even HAVE the ritual. That’s the point when even Archdevils and beings like Jatembe and Baba Yaga take you seriously.
i play as an atheist (more specifically i hate gods)
if you are ok with relying on deities and others then forget about clone and just contract a lawful cleric or outsider to resurrect you
then again if you are willing to bow to a deity then why even bother with coming back? just worship a good deity and go to heaven nirvana or elysiun
point is that you cant use it to avoid death from old age or even to avoid death forever anymore since pharasma is sure to stop it eventually
clone was the non-evil alternative to lichdom now if you want that serial murderer to leave you alone its either lichdom or godhood
Nobody expects you to bow down to pharasma because of clone and most gms probably won't use that clause anyway.
It's most likely a ploothook for gms who want to make a little adventure out of your (most likely temporary) demise.And avoiding death 'forver' is something that pf1 always had limited. Besides that there are different outsiders who start looking for you if you dodge the bullet too often, no matter what method you use.
And there is still reincarnation as non-evil method to extend your life after you kicked the bucket - with the same clause
but look at it like this: Pharasmas decision if your time has come can include supernatural means like clone and reincarnate, maybe you are destined to do a lot more things then the lifespan of your original ancestry would allow
and from what I know about pharasma your rabid atheist ass could probably spit in her face and she would still judge the same way
It is either way a lot harder in pf2 to die then in pf1 and your campaign probably wont span centuries of adventure
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
sigh this mania of making literally everything that a wizard could do RARE is so annoying
Eh, this is the nerf caster's edition and they have succeeded in doing so per their intent.
The only question is, have they've over-corrected?
Yes. The answer is yes in my opinion.
Sigh. Pharasma saying it doesn’t get to work from a game perspective is literally the GM just saying ‘no.’
From an in-universe perspective, if she stopped every single incident of someone coming back to life, all of the other gods would have ended her by now.
That seems unlikely, Pharasma is the strongest deity per James Jacobs (though probably couldn't stand against all the deities united) but more importantly her position in judging souls and sending them to the correct place in the afterlife keeps the universal soul cycle going. If she were to die, the universe would like grind to a halt and Groteus would gobble everything up and the universe would die.
Pharasma's role is what keeps everything running.
Maybe someone could replace her, it's unclear. But certainly killing the (arguably) most important god in the setting is going to have repercussions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
i play as an atheist (more specifically i hate gods)
The name for that is misotheist.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Further evidence that the only thing archsage cares about in this game is playing as an immortal, I see.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sigh. Pharasma saying it doesn’t get to work from a game perspective is literally the GM just saying ‘no.’
From an in-universe perspective, if she stopped every single incident of someone coming back to life, all of the other gods would have ended her by now.
"is literally the GM just saying no"
PRECISELY
PF2 is a game that decided to cut back on shenanigans. Explicitly allowing the GM to say know to things that could potentially cause problems for their game is a way to do that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I find the rarity system to be a flag to a GM to consider the impact this will have on the story being told between the GM and players. Will it impact the story positively, throw it in. Will it detract, hold off for awhile. Just remember that it's a joint story being told from both sides, so if your character has overarching goals that will require something with a rarity tag talk with the GM to be sure that will fit.
While true, the issue boils down to some people think they're entitled to anything that's printed and some GMs don't want to allow anything that remotely seems like it's not approved for all the time play.
And that leads to a lot of frustration on both ends.
Unfortunately it seems hard to find people (on the internet) who want to say that they don't expect anything that could alter the tone/direction of a game while also finding GMs who are willing to listen to requests and consider carefully whether or not they're disruptive to their narrative.
Tl;DR Adulting is hard, we're all children.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not really the game's fault that your GM apparently only runs low levels, dude.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i have tried before to convince gms to allow me to do things that aren't in the rules such as "i wish to be young" and let me tell you the experience is not good and it rarely ever works
its hard enough to get a gm that will allow you access to high level stuff since most will end the campaigns at low level intentionally making something completely dependent on gm fiat then its not only annoying but could end up swallowing the campaign something that would actually be a tangible detriment to other players
You don't seem to be having problems with the setting itself. It sounds like you have a lot of problems with your GM though.
You might be better off playing with a different GM whose playing style is better matched with yours.
i recommend using animate object instead of create undead for obvious reasons although judging by how people seem to act i'm sure your gms would just ignore the implications
Animated Object could work, but you could argue you need a creature that isn't Mindless to make the check.
To be fair, nothing says your secondary caster has to be trained in the skill or even have better than a -5 in the stat. But I think that is a reasonable thing a GM could throw at you. Create Undead can explicitly make intelligent undead.
"intelligent undead" ... could you make a vampire? if so that could be much easier than clone and pharasma doesn't even get a say
Unfortunately, it targets a dead creature so I don't think you could. You could of course use a hireling or planar binding, but that runs its own risks and isn't self contained. Alternatively, a vampire creation ritual following the same costs could be created that targets a living creature.
Other alternatives include an animal companion or dominated townsperson.
actually i was thinking of making someone into a vampire count [6] preferably a willing lawful and friendly subject and command/convince then to make me one then free me but that works too
Pharasma explicitly having the veto on your clones is just to give the GM grounds to put an end to clone shenanigans that go too far.
The GM always has "rocks fall, everyone dies" in their back pocket. But it's best to never use it and when there's a danger of rocks falling, it's best to put that where everyone can see it.
And ultimately the "no ethical problems" immortality solution for the nigh-omnipotent caster has always been the "create private timeless demiplane, never leave."
Pharasma explicitly having the veto on your clones is just to give the GM grounds to put an end to clone shenanigans that go too far.
The GM always has "rocks fall, everyone dies" in their back pocket. But it's best to never use it and when there's a danger of rocks falling, it's best to put that where everyone can see it.
And ultimately the "no ethical problems" immortality solution for the nigh-omnipotent caster has always been the "create private timeless demiplane, never leave."
i'm more concerned about the RAW lore from the perspective of my character he knew pharasma can cancel the clone and since he cant tell when is the lady of graves gonna arbitrarily say "nope you lived enough" he couldn't rely one it ever so it would make no sense for him to learn it
i actually care about what happens to my character after the campaign is over so if the natural course is him using clone and eventually dying because pharasma decided its enough that bothers me
but there is 1 issue with the timeless demiplane are you sure the ritual actually allows you to alter the time of the plane? maybe im reading it wrong but even then what prevents the axis and the boneyard from sending a usher or inevitable with a army of maruts and morrignas to kill you
also maybe you people don't realize but i understand those event are rare the issue is that when you live forever that means rare is not a question of "if" but "when" that is the mindset of a immortal
The original casting of Create Demiplane just gets you the basic Demiplane. Casting it again lets you grow its size, alter the terrain, change the planar features, and alter the flow of time on the Demiplane. As for people sending things after you... it’s a locked plane, and you have the only key in or out. They can’t get in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There surely ways to get in. Gods and other equally powerful entities wouldn't have a hassle to find way inside demiplane. Only thing is forbidden for then - is other godly realms. Unless they are invited of course. But taking that god's plane is source of his/her immortality, even most trustful gods would be super-paranoid of letting any other god in.
Pharasma doesn't have ultimate control on life-death cycle. Otherwise she would destroy all undeads (and other entities with unlimited lifespan) long time ago.
Where i bet she could personally put an end to some entity that not a god, in most cases she is likely too busy to do that.
So unless you personally insult Pharasma in some way - you unlikely should worry about her putting an end to you.
Obscure demiplanes are really hard to get into. Even Gods can't just break into the Akashic Record, for example.
You can absolutely cast the clone ritual without outside assistance, at least without anything you couldn't get from non-minions.
Step one. Have a familiar. Make it skilled.
Step two. Cast Create Undead at the lowest level.
You mean Animate Dead?
If so, it last only up to one minute. Where even shortest rituals last for hours.Simulacrum might work. But been only level-4 creature (that initially don't even have your knowledge), he surely will screw up on your ritual check. Very likely critically fail. Meaning you have to critically succeed yourself (with additional penalty) for purpose of ritual to be simply successful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Obscure demiplanes are really hard to get into. Even Gods can't just break into the Akashic Record, for example.
Those are not regular demiplanes. Such demiplanes created by gods or other equally powerful entities. With means of put extra protection to them. Something that players simply don't have access to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eventually, the multiverse will end. Living forever is quite hard unless you are a god; and even if you are...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Time trait is not an option the APG demiplane ritual can change.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i'm more concerned about the RAW lore from the perspective of my character he knew pharasma can cancel the clone and since he cant tell when is the lady of graves gonna arbitrarily say "nope you lived enough" he couldn't rely one it ever so it would make no sense for him to learn it
Your character does not know RAW, you character probably does not know that Pharasma can interact with those kinds of ritual - especially since he proabably has no religion skill investment.
i actually care about what happens to my character after the campaign is over so if the natural course is him using clone and eventually dying because pharasma decided its enough that bothers me
Your gamemaster proabably does not care that much what happens with the character after the campaign (talk about it) and it might as well be that he lives a peaceful reclusive life where he clones himself over and over again without pharasma giving a f until the point golarion disappears a little before starfinder and that guy possibly with it
but there is 1 issue with the timeless demiplane are you sure the ritual actually allows you to alter the time of the plane? maybe im reading it wrong but even then what prevents the axis and the boneyard from sending a usher or inevitable with a army of maruts and morrignas to kill you
If you are at the point where you can have your demiplane and can just disappear there you can also take percautions against such stuff. I also think that sending an army after one person is in many cases rather unlikey, else people like nex, geb, tar-baphon (and I am sure a few others) would have way bigger problems then what they have now
also maybe you people don't realize but i understand those event are rare the issue is that when you live forever that means rare is not a question of "if" but "when" that is the mindset of a immortal
Not every immortal is paranoid. It is an if not a when - except maybe your really push it with your immortality and need a new clone body every few weeks.
Also if you just want to stop aging play a druid (timeless nature) or monk (timeless body)
and before you say something - both are perfectly valid as atheistic characters
Time trait is not an option the APG demiplane ritual can change.
You are correct, I went and double-checked a bit ago, but it was too late for me to edit my post.
Thankfully deities in Golarion are intentionally set up in such a non mechanic bound way so PCs can't just go "nuh uh RAW" for the most part.
Personal taste I know, but being able to do something mechanically shouldn't stop a character for striving for an ideal. One of the awesome things about the post game narrative, it isn't being played so the player and GM can work on what happens together.
We might get a lich ritual in the future though.
Permanent invincibility with no vulnerability even from gods that can be accessed mid levels... That isn't happening unless someone at Paizo loses the plot.
Eventually, the multiverse will end. Living forever is quite hard unless you are a god; and even if you are...
Yeah, this is a good point. Nothing in Golarion really gets to live forever, not even the gods.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eventually, the multiverse will end. Living forever is quite hard unless you are a god; and even if you are...Yeah, this is a good point. Nothing in Golarion really gets to live forever, not even the gods.
Pharasma is doing the best so far.
She is the only survivor from the previous universe and took the "foundation" from it to start the current universe when the previous one collapsed.
However, she also knows that she must go down with the ship (from prophecy) and is training a successor (her "daughter") to assume the same role in the next universe.
Though I believe Pharasma is also looking at how she might be able to extend this current universe for as long as possible, or how they might be able to end the cycle of universes collapsing and being re-birthed. It's unclear exactly what causes it, though feeding souls to Groteus seems to stave off the end.
Kill the assistants after.
Or grab scrolls of Simulacrum maybe?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kill the assistants after.
Or grab scrolls of Simulacrum maybe?
Simulacrum is a ritual, no scrolls.
Simulacrum is a ritual, no scrolls.Kill the assistants after.
Or grab scrolls of Simulacrum maybe?
If rituals can be written down in books for learning, I am sure scrolls can be used as well ;)
Why you would want multiple, well... That is of questionable benefit.