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I heard a rumor that Boons as written on Chronicle Sheets are going away for good.
>>Relevant Link?<<
Is anyone able to walk me through the reasoning for this change? Or did I hear wrong?
Cheers.
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I think the plan is that different adventures will unlock different purchasable AcP boons.
So instead of 3 mediocre boons on 3 sheets, each instead unlocks a more powerful boon, but you have to spend AcP on the one you want.
I think the biggest advantage is you can buy the boons on the characters they are best for instead of having them be stuck on the character that played the scenario.
Has some other issues, not entirely sure how I feel, or if I'm entirely accurate.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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I mean, boons are a topic with that doesn't really have "correct" answers.
On one hand, having cool/powerful options on boons can lead to chronicle fishing, and "cool chronicle" scenarios are run more than "boring chronicle" scenarios. (Down the verdant Path, for example, has been a favorite in our local lodge because of the super cool boon, with many of our players using a replay and/or both GMing and playing it.)
This could be alleviated by giving access to all your characters instead of just the one who played it.
Alternatively, you could move from good boons to flavourful but mechanically insignificant boons.
Items on chronicle sheets are -largely- useless. "Why does this list an item that's level 5? I'm already 4, I can access that next level anyway and I don't have gold saved up yet."
However, some items are very cool and appropriate for certain characters - it was nice being able to purchase +1 striking handwraps a level early with my monk, and it was cool getting access to Ring of the Ram early. Problem is that while items are -largely- useless, the sometimes they are -pretty cool- or -very handy- to gain early access. I think 2e's move towards "less items on sheets" was the right choice, But "No items on sheets" definitely feels wrong.
It's all about balance.
It seems like playing certain adventures might unlock options in the AcP later, but... Why not also include a mention of those in the chronicle sheet too? And it doesn't completely alleviate the disapointment of seeing a blank sheet of paper with "4xp, 150gp, 4 fame" in front of you after an otherwise exciting special.
When we gained a certain item at the beginning of the new 2-00, I was sure it would be featured on the chronicle sheet. Was really disapointing when it wasn't. Nothing really was.
Venture-Lieutenant, Michigan—Warren
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I'm disappointed with the new approach to boons. I think it really got to me when I finished PFS2 2-00 and received a sheet with no boons or items. Completing specials used to feel like a big deal with very interesting chronicle sheets. I feel like there are lots of ways to do it right and have enjoyed boons that are just plot related and especially enjoyed Starfinder boons that unlock new playable races. This new approach is flavorless and off-putting.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Items on chronicle sheets are -largely- useless. "Why does this list an item that's level 5? I'm already 4, I can access that next level anyway and I don't have gold saved up yet."
However, some items are very cool and appropriate for certain characters - it was nice being able to purchase +1 striking handwraps a level early with my monk, and it was cool getting access to Ring of the Ram early. Problem is that while items are -largely- useless, the sometimes they are -pretty cool- or -very handy- to gain early access. I think 2e's move towards "less items on sheets" was the right choice, But "No items on sheets" definitely feels wrong.
I very much agree with this conclusion. I'd like to see the "can buy this anyway" items trimmed, but aim to put either early-access or uncommon-access items more often on chronicles.
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I'm disappointed with the new approach to boons. I think it really got to me when I finished PFS2 2-00 and received a sheet with no boons or items.
They could have let us keep the items we received from the venture captains at the beginning (iron weapons, vial of X).
2E PFS is becoming more effort for less result.
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I think PFS2 season one overdid it a little with the boons. A few are so generally useful that they are constantly slotted, many not really worth the effort of remembering.
My favourite boons in PF1 were definitely the ones that had in world effects. One of my characters REALLY liked the idea of becoming a high ranking noble. Much more important to him than getting some situational +1 to a skill. And, story side, it felt absolutely right that he would have access to that potential while others did not
One thing that I DO really like in PFS2 is the adventure synopses on the chronicles. That is a superb idea and, alone, makes the chronicles worth while.
I also like the call backs to earlier scenarios, sufficiently so that I was quite disappointed that 2-02 did NOT have a callback to an earlier scenario (sorry, being deliberately vague as 2-0w hasn't even been released yet). The callbacks make it seem a lot more like a campaign rather than a series of unrelated episodes
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How I'd do it:
Chronicle Boons
Every scenario provides a Boon, but all chronicle boons are Checkbox Only (☑☑☑), and so eventually are expended. You slot them hoping they come up, and if they do, check the box (☑) and gain a small bonus. The idea is that these Boons are less powerful, providing small and temporary benefits until exhausted. By sheer volume, there is an incentive to use them. Assign the better amongst these the "Advanced" tag.
This includes single Checkbox Item Boons (☑) designed to give either/both Early or Discounted Access to special items that play a role in the scenario / quest / bounty.
Achievement Boons
Players can purchase Boons based on their Faction, whether they played a specific Scenario, or other in-game factors. Achievement Boons are designed to be either/both Stronger or Permanent, compared to Chronicle Boons.
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Seems Paizo is already moving ahead with the second kind. But I think also including the first kind would be a neat way to move forward with a "best of both worlds" situation.
Cheers!
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Alternatively, you could move from good boons to flavourful but mechanically insignificant boons.I honestly think this is the best way to go, and then have mechanically significant boons require AcP purchases.
From a practical standpoint, this is the best option. Players don't like mechanical options imposed on a character; getting an awesome sword boon on a wizard character is a huge disappointment. On the other hand, the Chronicles are a record of each character's accomplishments, and all those little nuggets of flavor that happen should be immortalized.
I want to see more boons like
"[ ] Aquaphobia: Your character fell into the water and now is scared of the water. Take a -1 Swim penalty until you put a rank into Swim or succeed on three Swim checks in a row."
or
"[ ] You sang a goblin song that impressed the goblin chief. Write the song below. You can cross this boon off for a +2 Diplomacy check on a goblin NPC. ___________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________"
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I want to see more boons like"[ ] Aquaphobia: Your character fell into the water and now is scared of the water. Take a -1 Swim penalty until you put a rank into Swim or succeed on three Swim checks in a row."
Most Players hate negative boons.
Most players hate negative boons that occupy boon slots with the burning pasion of a thousand suns.
"[ ] You sang a goblin song that impressed the goblin chief. Write the song below. You can cross this boon off for a +2 Diplomacy check on a goblin NPC. [/]
This is what we had in PF1. The problem is that the boons were so narrow that they would never come up again. IF the player even remembered they had one of them from 2 years ago.
They had to be that narrow because permanant bonuses would pile up and overpower the character.
Thats why they went to the slotting a boon system.
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I think I'm going to miss _items_ on chronicles more than I miss boons. Theoretically I like the idea of the boons, but I think OP has had a hard time finding the correct balance for strength & applicability of a boon. I liked the idea of the slotting solution to pare down the time spent mid-scenario checking through a large stack of pfs1 boons looking for a relevant one; however it does still lead to boon tetris at the beginning of the scenario. Even if people generally only have 3 slots to work with (faction/advanced boons are almost always pre-determined).
Some of the things that i think make a good _chronicle_ boon:
a) generally cosmetic/interesting/minor mechanical effect that's a great callback to the scenario. I think we've had one of those this season.
b) non-scaling, limited use boon that highly encourages you to use it and be done with it, in the next 1-2 levels of play. These need to be be generally applicable so you can be pretty sure if you slot it, you'll use it. We've had one great version of this, and a couple of almost great ones.
c) Passive always on effect that you don't need to keep checking if its proc'd. We've had a couple of these.
Anything more situational feels a bit like the campaign is playing gotcha with you -- you can only slot so many, the briefing made it sound like this could come up, so you slotted it, it didn't come up.
The faction boons on the other hand all seem to work exactly as intended, so that's great. Some may be weaker or stronger, but you get predictability from them.
Now as to items, both accelerated access and uncommon/rare items make for good rewards. One problem is that accelerated access is a double edged sword that hurts multiple ways:
1) its often not much of a reward as gold can be tight and you usually can't afford something at the level+2 level; so its only a one level accelerations in most cases. There are times you can pull it off, but you almost need to know its coming. And of course it might not be an item you even care about (but bequeathal helps with that some).
2) it can throw off the expected balance -- accelerated access to fundamental runes feels like it might be a bad idea in general. Accelerated access to property runes, to precious metals, to utility items/etc should be safer and explored more.
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Most players hate negative boons that occupy boon slots with the burning pasion of a thousand suns.
Then ... don't slot them ... ?
boons were so narrow that they would never come up again
Then ... don't slot them ... ?
Thats why they went to the slotting a boon system.
The boon slot system doesn't fix the problems you say it does. People still need to remember the ones from 2 years ago - they're just forced to remember when they slot their boons at the beginning of the scenario, rather than digging through their Chronicles when the moment arrives. Most of the boons are still highly situational and/or limited, and characters are mostly slotting the same few useful boons.
That's why just getting rid of the whole "scenario boons are/can be mechanically powerful" facade is better. Just intentionally make them not powerful. Make them situational and/or stupid, but entertaining. And use the AcP boon system to provide real, permanent, mechanical benefits - on terms of the player's choosing.
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I think I'm going to miss _items_ on chronicles more than I miss boons.How often to items on chronicles really matter though?
They haven't mattered much in season one, but I think that's due to a few aspects.
1) Using it to grant access to uncommon or rare items is better than using it for accelerated access, IMO. However, most of season's ones items were accelerated access to common items.
2) Season one saw the developers still learning the system and often putting items on the list that you likely already had by the time they showed up.
Taken together, accelerated access to uncommon or rare items (which can be transferred via bequethal) are valuable.
In Starfinder (which I basically haven't played since PF2 launched, so I'm not up to speed on the meta/group think), I was always looking for accelerated access on my armor or weapons, due to the 10% sellback (versus 50% in PFS1/2), being able to jump one level up made a huge difference in wealth, maybe too much difference, but it was always the most exciting thing... But that's also why I'm thinking that fundamental runes might be over-powered as accelerated access, and think focusing on the rarity access is better than the accelerated common access. I also think discounted, utility items would have a lot of value.
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Most players hate negative boons that occupy boon slots with the burning pasion of a thousand suns.Then ... don't slot them ... ?
boons were so narrow that they would never come up againThen ... don't slot them ... ?
I'm presuming you missed the rule in the guide requiring they be slotted rather than are advocating cheating.
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I'm presuming you missed the rule in the guide requiring they be slotted rather than are advocating cheating.Most players hate negative boons that occupy boon slots with the burning pasion of a thousand suns.Then ... don't slot them ... ?
boons were so narrow that they would never come up againThen ... don't slot them ... ?
To be clear, I'm not advocating cheating. Either you've misunderstood me, or I am grossly misunderstanding the rules.
As far as I am aware, boons aren't required to be slotted if you don't want their effects (absolutely correct me if this is wrong). If you get negative boons, useless boons, or boons you simply don't like, you can simply ignore them - don't slot them, and you don't gain the effects.
I'm saying that situational boons (and negative boons, although I fully admit not everyone finds them as amusing as I do) can't have negative utility in a boon-slotted system - because you can always choose to not slot the boons. If you think they're less than worthless, you can make them worthless by not slotting them.
Attaching these sorts of boons to a scenario can bring a lot of flavor to a character. If there's a vat of acid in the scenario that dyes characters pink, you can have a boon that allows your character to be pink. Don't want to be pink? Don't slot the boon. Want to be pink, but just for a little bit? Slot the boon, and then unslot it when you get bored.
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One aspect I’ll miss is how choices made during a scenario affect you in future scenarios. I know that success conditions will still be reported, and I know that scenarios can still consider whether or not you have played a previous scenario, but for example:
I don’t understand how something like that will be possible without boons on the chronicles. It would instead have to be just based on whether you’ve played the scenario or not, regardless of what actually happened during the scenario.
Now, it may be that GMs are going to expected to note things on chronicles by writing them in instead of just having the boon there. That could potentially accomplish something similar. Though given how often GMs forgot to cross stuff out on chronicles in the past, that seems an unreliable system, since the player would have no way of knowing there was something to note unless the chronicle said so.
If the consequences/benefits of an individuals choice are lost in all of this, then I think that’s a downside to removing the boons as well.
Edit: Or maybe it’s maintained by using checkboxes in the scenario summary? That might be ok.
Edit again:
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The discussion around "multiple free random niche boons" vs "fewer focused powerful purchased boons" mirrors the discussion around playstyle between Wizard and Sorcerer. Some of us actually enjoy tracking 100 little things at once - others prefer to focus fully on fewer moving parts.
Let's call those two playstyles equal.
To me the strongest argument against Chronicle Boons seems to be the additional Creative Capital (if you will) that needs to muster to keep them supported @ 30-40 per year.
To that end, I think two kinds of Chronicle Boons could speak to that line of argumentation.
1) Pre-declared +1 to Skill or Skill Function under Specific Circumstance with Checkboxes (☑☑☑)
2) Single 5% Discount or One Level Early Boons for Common Items with Single Checkbox (☑)
Disclaimer: I am not a Game Designer and as such always run the risk of oversimplifying issues that seem less complex on the surface but are but an iceburg's tip...
Cheers!
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** spoiler omitted **I don’t understand how something like that will be possible without boons on the chronicles. I
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Return to the island of fluffy bunnies II: the Carroting
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