I'm trying to figure out when/why you'd want to use One Inch Punch?
It's 2 actions to make 1 Strike that deals 1 extra damage die, or 2 dice for 3 actions, but if you have a Striking Rune or any Property Runes it does less than just using Flurry?
lvl 6 Dragon Stance (BackSwing), Striking Rune, No Property Runes, 18str
One Inch Punch
2 Actions, 3d10 + 4 avg 14 dmg
Flurry
1 Action, (2d10+4) + -5MAP(2d10+4) avg ~17dmg
The gap widens as you gain higher Striking Runes + Property Runes and Flurry combines attacks for weakness/resistance so One-Inch Punch doesn't do anything there, so what's the point?
Attacking twice does more damage once you have a Striking Rune and uses the same amount of actions.
Flurrying does more damage for less actions.
The only time I can see this actually being a damage increase is if you're using a weapon with no runes I guess?
Did I miss something that makes this better?
It's about the same as Power Attack for Fighters, it just also gives an option to add more dice as an action. It's solid to combine with Flurry of Blows, IMO.
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So, a two action on-inch punch averages 12.3 damage, but if they use their remaining action on a Flurry, their total DPR is about 19.05.
My calculations for a Flurry plus two more attacks at -10 are more like 17.5 or thereabouts.
So, I'm not sure it's a good Feat, but it does have a modest damage increase at 6th level at least with d10 strikes on turns when you do nothing but attack, if you use the two action version.
At higher levels, I'd have to do some additional analysis, and it might lose out, but the increasing damage boosts might help with that. Like I said, I'd need to do more analysis.
I haven't got to play 2nd much yet. Is their situations similar to say high DR or high AC where it would be more useful?
If you're facing really high-level enemies, making -5 or -10 attacks isn't helpful, and you'll want to spend actions getting in flank positions as well as intimidation or using other means to boost your to-hit or lower enemy ACs/ignore resistances. Even using non-AC-based effects might be helpful if the enemy has a not-so-strong saving throw you can affect. If you already have (or don't have) those things, then throwing -5 or -10 attacks is really all you can do.
The other nice thing about this ability is it still only counts as one attack for the purposes of MAP. So if you are Hasted (reasonable to expect at 6th level when you choose the feat), you can move with Haste, use the 2 action One (Inch) Punch, then follow up with a Flurry at normal MAP.
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Actually, for high level enemies, Flurry sans Punch looks better. Those -10 hits are fishing for 20s anyway, so they make up a larger damage percentage vs. high AC foes.
Resistance to the damage is a lot harder to analyze, but might (or might not) help out the One Inch Punch.
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Another factor is True Strike.
PF2 feats that put all of your Strike-eggs in one basket tend to give modest bonuses, yet if you build around that single attack (or the party's tactics amplify that) then those feats prove their worth. Also say you can predict the next Strike w/ the Investigator's ability (via MCD) or some divination effect. If it's a 20, go for it. If a 1, then Flurry so the 2nd Strike has a chance.
Developers also have to account for a d12 Animal Barb using MCD Monk to pick this up!
That said, Flurry comes for free (!) so to me it seems hard to balance any feats that substitute for Flurry, especially since Flurry ties into Stunning Fist.
One Inch Punch broadens options rather than strengthens one's bread-n'-butter attack routine. So I'll likely never take it because of all those juicy Monk (or MCD) feats. But I could see it being really cool tossing out 10d10! (at highest levels)
If you're facing really high-level enemies, making -5 or -10 attacks isn't helpful, and you'll want to spend actions getting in flank positions as well as intimidation or using other means to boost your to-hit or lower enemy ACs/ignore resistances. Even using non-AC-based effects might be helpful if the enemy has a not-so-strong saving throw you can affect. If you already have (or don't have) those things, then throwing -5 or -10 attacks is really all you can do.
The other nice thing about this ability is it still only counts as one attack for the purposes of MAP. So if you are Hasted (reasonable to expect at 6th level when you choose the feat), you can move with Haste, use the 2 action One (Inch) Punch, then follow up with a Flurry at normal MAP.
I was thinking this as well but looking at numbers in the attack compare tool One Inch Punch doesn't really do more damage this is why I was asking if I was missing something.
10d10 is cool but only does about 1 more damage than just attacking 4x with Flurry + Strikes at that level. Doesn't really seem worth a feat
Their is a little bit of role play options for it but I feel about this one How I feel about power attack. I'm just not sure about it.
Presuming the math is the same as Power Attack, it's likely worse in most cases when there's no resistance, and better by far in any case where there is resistance. The three-action version, especially, shines in that case.
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Presuming the math is the same as Power Attack, it's likely worse in most cases when there's no resistance, and better by far in any case where there is resistance. The three-action version, especially, shines in that case.
I'm not sure if this is true, since it actually has a couple of very different variables in play.
1. Unlike Power Attack, One Inch Punch only counts as one attack for MAP, which is relevant.
2. Flurry of Blows throws a bit of a wrench into this in a couple of ways. First, it provides two attacks with one action for both parties, which is interesting. Second, you combine the attacks in a Flurry for overcoming Resistance.
How all that changes the calculus I'm unsure, but it almost certainly does.
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I think I would of like to of seen one inch punch as a replacement for flurry with maybe a bit more of a buff. that might have been the better way to do it.
I take my Tiger Slash over it any day of the week. It scales less harder but I have a guaranteed shove and a stronger baseline (not everyone will play at higher levels, this is important). At higher levels it can be much better, specially with bigger die. But it's undeniably cool, I gotta say.
While I am not sure how it works out mathematically ot seems like it can be ok when you need +/-0 map to hit. Also it does open up the option of One Millimeter Punch which opens up some tactical options.
It's great against stronger enemies, they have higher AC and shoving them away as part of your attack is very helpful if they don't have massive reach.
It's great against stronger enemies, they have higher AC and shoving them away as part of your attack is very helpful if they don't have massive reach.
Running the numbers it's really not more advantageous than just attacking multiple times, even at extreme acs.
Unless the enemy has above extreme ac and high resistances it's pretty much a wash, or your weapon doesn't have runes.
It doesn't knockback without taking another feat.
From what I can tell using the damage compare tool it is better for a few levels from 10-12 before proficiency increases but then falls behind again.
Except with FoB the 2nd attack will be at a -4 to hit so vs. A High AC target you may not get that damage.
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for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
Yes, if using 3 actions to attack FOB->OIP is stronger than FOB+2Strikes but it's such a small difference it doesn't really seem worth a feat in most instances?
And 3 Action OIP falls off past lvl 13 even with resistance from what I can tell just due to the raw number of extra dice from runes and fishing for crit/hits with multiple attacks.
EDIT: Aren't multiple attacks also advantageous vs anything with a weakness?
for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
Yes, if using 3 actions to attack FOB->OIP is stronger than FOB+2Strikes but it's such a small difference it doesn't really seem worth a feat in most instances?
no you OIP then you FOB.
but there are a lot of feats whose power is questionable. dancing leaf? crushing grab? like sure STR mod to damage on a grapple nice, but its never gonna be higher then 6 by 20 and characters like fighters can combat grab and furious grab as barbarian so its kinda moot.
dont take it if you dont want it imo.
for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
Yes, if using 3 actions to attack FOB->OIP is stronger than FOB+2Strikes but it's such a small difference it doesn't really seem worth a feat in most instances?
no you OIP then you FOB.
but there are a lot of feats whose power is questionable. dancing leaf? crushing grab? like sure STR mod to damage on a grapple nice, but its never gonna be higher then 6 by 20 and characters like fighters can combat grab and furious grab as barbarian so its kinda moot.
dont take it if you dont want it imo.
? I actually ran the numbers and posted the image above, flurrying first does more damage vs extreme ac.
And crushing grab would be 7 at max
for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
Yes, if using 3 actions to attack FOB->OIP is stronger than FOB+2Strikes but it's such a small difference it doesn't really seem worth a feat in most instances?
no you OIP then you FOB.
but there are a lot of feats whose power is questionable. dancing leaf? crushing grab? like sure STR mod to damage on a grapple nice, but its never gonna be higher then 6 by 20 and characters like fighters can combat grab and furious grab as barbarian so its kinda moot.
dont take it if you dont want it imo.
? I actually ran the numbers and posted the image above, flurrying first does more damage vs extreme ac.
And crushing grab would be 7 at max
im not sure how fob first makes sense. but ok. i think vs higher ac enemies thats not exactly true. but maybe.
either way, everything else i said still stands, plenty of feats that arent very powerful.
for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
Yes, if using 3 actions to attack FOB->OIP is stronger than FOB+2Strikes but it's such a small difference it doesn't really seem worth a feat in most instances?
no you OIP then you FOB.
but there are a lot of feats whose power is questionable. dancing leaf? crushing grab? like sure STR mod to damage on a grapple nice, but its never gonna be higher then 6 by 20 and characters like fighters can combat grab and furious grab as barbarian so its kinda moot.
dont take it if you dont want it imo.
? I actually ran the numbers and posted the image above, flurrying first does more damage vs extreme ac.
And crushing grab would be 7 at max
im not sure how fob first makes sense. but ok. i think vs higher ac enemies thats not exactly true. but maybe.
either way, everything else i said still stands, plenty of feats that arent very powerful.
It's because of the difference in damage dice with runes that FoB avgs out.
You add 3 extra dice at lvl 18 with one inch punch, flurry with max runes adds 4extra dice + 3d6 (Fire, Shocking, Cold) + 7(strength). Just with a -5 or -4 if agile.
If you FoB than OiP your OiP is at a -8. Damage doesn't mean a darn if you don't hit.
If you FoB than OiP your OiP is at a -8. Damage doesn't mean a darn if you don't hit.
You're free to use the dmg tool and compare yourself I posted the results I got above
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It's great against stronger enemies, they have higher AC and shoving them away as part of your attack is very helpful if they don't have massive reach.Running the numbers it's really not more advantageous than just attacking multiple times, even at extreme acs.
Unless the enemy has above extreme ac and high resistances it's pretty much a wash, or your weapon doesn't have runes.
It doesn't knockback without taking another feat.
From what I can tell using the damage compare tool it is better for a few levels from 10-12 before proficiency increases but then falls behind again.
Well these are just averages that doesn't take into account several other factors such as dice variance and re-roll enhancing abilities or simply using the hero point.
It's nice to see some of this math, but I always take then with a grain of salt. Theorycraft is important, but these often assume scenarios that don't reflect well the experience in game. It's akin to the Alchemist's consolation prize of dealing meager damage on a miss, sure it's a benefit, but try missing every attack in your session and see if it feels good in play.
The One-Inch Punch isn't a direct upgrade to Tiger Slash and similar, but it's a good way for other builds to pick up, not every Styel attack has agile, which makes Flurry of Blows a better prospect in more situations
Also, it is very important to remember that the purpose of such abilities is to offer a different tool for different situations, not to become your bread and butter and be a straight for increase your DPR.
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I like the mental image of a Monastic Archer Monk combining One-Inch Punch and One-Millimeter Punch to just hammer a foe with a 10d8 hit and send them flying 30 feet away, into a wall or off a cliff.
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I like the mental image of a Monastic Archer Monk combining One-Inch Punch and One-Millimeter Punch to just hammer a foe with a 10d8 hit and send them flying 30 feet away, into a wall or off a cliff.
That is a fun idea, a gap opener instead of closer. OmmP them back and than flury them with arrows.
Seems there's been enough discussion to suggest that One Inch Punch is just niche, not a trap. Would've been nice to have an initial function that doesn't overlap with FoB to an extent, but it looks usable. (And amusing ~w~)
It also con be nice to combo with investigator feat. So if you know the hit will impact you go with this strong attack
It also con be nice to combo with investigator feat. So if you know the hit will impact you go with this strong attack
or true strike, feint, or any other "next attack" bonus.
Just a note, remember that at 16, you can grab a feat to add a knockback effect to the punch. At that level, the punch adds 2 or 4 extra dices, I'm not sure how strong that is, but I'm guessing the upside is not having to deal with MAP.
Some people might not like the risk of MAP, so this could appeal to them?
I dunno if it's great, but a dragon stance at level 10 could put out 5d10 + Dice from runes.
Any idea how far One Millimeter Punch sends them flying? I don't see any range.
If it wasn't for runes it would probably be solid. It needs to add the extra weapon dice for the actions as well for it to be a solid option I think.
Just a note, remember that at 16, you can grab a feat to add a knockback effect to the punch. At that level, the punch adds 2 or 4 extra dices, I'm not sure how strong that is, but I'm guessing the upside is not having to deal with MAP.
Some people might not like the risk of MAP, so this could appeal to them?
I dunno if it's great, but a dragon stance at level 10 could put out 5d10 + Dice from runes.Any idea how far One Millimeter Punch sends them flying? I don't see any range.
In the PDF, it's a basic save that goes: No distance, 5 feet, 10 feet, 10 feet per action used for One-Inch Punch (so 20-30 feet).
If it wasn't for runes it would probably be solid. It needs to add the extra weapon dice for the actions as well for it to be a solid option I think.
It'd be broken.
It's not meant to be a straight increase (otherwise it's not worth it!), but rather as several have noted, as a great way to deliver damage if you have a "next Strike" buffing ability that would work poorly w/ Flurry. And I'd argue a higher die type too like a d10 Dragon or a d12 Animal Barbarian.
Without one of those buffing abilities, there's not much gained, and likely there shouldn't be or there'd be an obligation to take it to keep up.
In the PDF, it's a basic save that goes: No distance, 5 feet, 10 feet, 10 feet per action used for One-Inch Punch (so 20-30 feet).Just a note, remember that at 16, you can grab a feat to add a knockback effect to the punch. At that level, the punch adds 2 or 4 extra dices, I'm not sure how strong that is, but I'm guessing the upside is not having to deal with MAP.
Some people might not like the risk of MAP, so this could appeal to them?
I dunno if it's great, but a dragon stance at level 10 could put out 5d10 + Dice from runes.Any idea how far One Millimeter Punch sends them flying? I don't see any range.
I wish this knockback worked for Improved Knockback, would be pretty nice.
I see that it's not a "trap" now you all have brought up good points.
The 2-action version combo's well with Flurry, it works well in the case of not having max dmg runes on a weapon and if you want to get extra damage for 2 actions without having the MAP of 2 Strikes.
Also I'm probably giving too much credence to just running the numbers and not seeing it in action.
for a full round attack OIP+FOB makes sense. just saying.
but its not a replacement for FOB
Yes, if using 3 actions to attack FOB->OIP is stronger than FOB+2Strikes but it's such a small difference it doesn't really seem worth a feat in most instances?
no you OIP then you FOB.
but there are a lot of feats whose power is questionable. dancing leaf? crushing grab? like sure STR mod to damage on a grapple nice, but its never gonna be higher then 6 by 20 and characters like fighters can combat grab and furious grab as barbarian so its kinda moot.
dont take it if you dont want it imo.
? I actually ran the numbers and posted the image above, flurrying first does more damage vs extreme ac.
And crushing grab would be 7 at max
im not sure how fob first makes sense. but ok. i think vs higher ac enemies thats not exactly true. but maybe.
either way, everything else i said still stands, plenty of feats that arent very powerful.
It's because of the difference in damage dice with runes that FoB avgs out.
You add 3 extra dice at lvl 18 with one inch punch, flurry with max runes adds 4extra dice + 3d6 (Fire, Shocking, Cold) + 7(strength). Just with a -5 or -4 if agile.
You're not always going to hit with both attacks, though, unless you're fighting mooks, which is what One Inch Punch isn't really designed for. (Except if you just wanna be some cool badass who flexes his damage to the scrubs.)
I mean, running the numbers you are technically correct, since strikes at -10 or so will just average out to piddly number differences. But this only works out in a perpetual vacuum where you aren't pressured in killing stuff fast and you don't have to worry about having a limited number of probability trials before you lose.
Which is why I'm of the opinion that OIP will get you better results in fewer probability trials than FOB would in a vacuum.
thats a good point, sure over time fob will average higher, but vs a tougher enemy, that will kill you in 3 rounds, you probably dont want to be whiffing half your damage at a high % chance.
thats a good point, sure over time fob will average higher, but vs a tougher enemy, that will kill you in 3 rounds, you probably dont want to be whiffing half your damage at a high % chance.
That's why I consider DPR averages calculations as very loose guidelines, it's good to know about them, but I don't let them inform my every decision, analysis and evaluation. In a given adventure, the dice rolls will be limited and will always matter , specially in this edition, since it was designed to keep functioning well at higher levels (unlike PF1e).
Abilities that forego extra attacks aren't always a DPR increase when you consider an infinite number of rolls with the same static numbers and no combat environment, but during a combat, there will be moments where it's much better to put everything into a single roll than in several, there are various buffs that only work for a single attack specially when resistances or high AC are in the mix(FOB and similar abilities require both hits to be effective in bypassing resistances).
We as players need to take our eyes off that DPR benchmark more often, it can make us miss important aspects that make characters good and the game fun.
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I think sometimes there's a tendency to get fixated by people who understand statistics and probability on the overall expected damage and lose track of the fact that sometime in the here-and-now of a situation that you don't care about the statistical expectation; you care about what you reliably can get out of the attack right now. That's frankly what makes Power Attack worthwhile for me a lot of the time; I don't want to find out if that additional -5 penalty attack will work. I'd rather just do the one higher likelyhood attack and get a little extra damage out of it without finding out if that second attack will be worth it (and I've almost always got something I want to do with the third action so its almost irrelevant what it'd do).
These analysis aren't even that accurate, specially those that only calculate DPR based on very specific scenarios. These calculations often assume an infinite number of rolls, which completely disregard the dice and make them very unreliable and hardly an ideal metric.
There was a thread here a while ago about DPR calculations and how they were never that reliable to begin with and are even less so specially now in PF2e:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42s5x?The-new-whiteboarding-why-DPR-as-a -metric-is#1
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You can also put me down under "This feat, like Power Attack, is for when you're facing Resistances."
Two attacks vs X resistance means you lose out on 2X damage. 1 attack vs X resistance means you lose out on X damage. X is less than 2X. Seems simple to me.
Every monk is going to be able to Flurry if they chose, 1 Inch Punch puts another tool in the toolbox. I view this as a "breadth" option rather than a "depth" option.
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You can also put me down under "This feat, like Power Attack, is for when you're facing Resistances."
Two attacks vs X resistance means you lose out on 2X damage. 1 attack vs X resistance means you lose out on X damage. X is less than 2X. Seems simple to me.
Every monk is going to be able to Flurry if they chose, 1 Inch Punch puts another tool in the toolbox. I view this as a "breadth" option rather than a "depth" option.
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Only issue with that line of thinking is that flurry combines for resistance/weakness so it wouldn't lose more dmg to resistance
Doh! Got me there, I forgot about that.
Back to the drawing board for me...
Oh this thought just occurred to me one inch punch might work well for a multi-class monk/investigator. Because of how devise a stratagem works on only one attack.
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You can also put me down under "This feat, like Power Attack, is for when you're facing Resistances."
Two attacks vs X resistance means you lose out on 2X damage. 1 attack vs X resistance means you lose out on X damage. X is less than 2X. Seems simple to me.
Every monk is going to be able to Flurry if they chose, 1 Inch Punch puts another tool in the toolbox. I view this as a "breadth" option rather than a "depth" option.
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Only issue with that line of thinking is that flurry combines for resistance/weakness so it wouldn't lose more dmg to resistance
You still need to hit both and there were several occasions where I took the risk and it didn't pay off at all. Tiger Slash proved itself more productive against high AC enemies with resistance. There's an encounter in age of ashes with a Gelugon, it had 34 AC against our +19 to hit, which made the second attack already unlikely. Since my Monk was the only character providing flanking because of my mobility (the creature has 15ft reach and attack of opportunity) I had to say put, so my routine was mainly Tiger Slash or I risked a FoB to stun him (got stunned 1 once). It was a hell of a fight and FoB was basically me hitting once with luck to trigger stunning fist and the second attack was basically a throw away, meanwhile the resistance was shaving off the damage from my 2d8 instead of 4d8.
You still need to hit both and there were several occasions where I took the risk and it didn't pay off at all. Tiger Slash proved itself more productive against high AC enemies with resistance. There's an encounter in age of ashes with a Gelugon, it had 34 AC against our +19 to hit, which made the second attack already unlikely. Since my Monk was the only character providing flanking because of my mobility (the creature has 15ft reach and attack of opportunity) I had to say put, so my routine was mainly Tiger Slash or I risked a FoB to stun him (got stunned 1 once). It was a hell of a fight and FoB was basically me hitting once with luck to trigger stunning fist and the second attack was basically a throw away, meanwhile the resistance was shaving off the damage from my 2d8 instead of 4d8.You can also put me down under "This feat, like Power Attack, is for when you're facing Resistances."
Two attacks vs X resistance means you lose out on 2X damage. 1 attack vs X resistance means you lose out on X damage. X is less than 2X. Seems simple to me.
Every monk is going to be able to Flurry if they chose, 1 Inch Punch puts another tool in the toolbox. I view this as a "breadth" option rather than a "depth" option.
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Only issue with that line of thinking is that flurry combines for resistance/weakness so it wouldn't lose more dmg to resistance
Ok.
Statistically flurry is the slightly stronger option if you had time to make hundreds of attacks, but I already agreed with you above that I was getting caught up in just analyzing raw numbers and they don't play out as often in gameplay.
I was just pointing out that flurry combines for resistance/weakness.
Question, if a monk is going to do the OiP FoB combo, what is the best way to do it?
One Inch Punch followed by Flurry or Flurry followed by OIP?
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Reminder for everyone disparaging the tool he used: it can generate full probability distributions.
So all the complaints of infinite number of rolls needed, or wanting to know the chance of doing this much damage don't apply. You can literally see that if you want to use the tool for yourself.