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I know Feral Combat training got errata'd to remove the wording that it also included getting unarmed strike augments on your natural attack... but let's look at these two feats...
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage. This feat does not make levels in classes other than monk count toward any other monk class features.
ML is a feat that has Improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite. So, Feral Combat Training will apply it's effects to a natural weapon...
Does that mean the natural weapon gets the monk's unarmed strike table?
Also... if you just stay monk... it's at full level...
"you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite" is legitimately worse wording than "effects that augment unarmed strikes", so a precise RAW is pretty much impossible to determine, but I'd go with "no" - Feral Combat Training is for feats that affect an unarmed strike, and Monastic Legacy doesn't do that - it alters the Unarmed Strike class feature.
Not that I can imagine a nautral attack build where spending two feats to boost the damage of one type of natural weapon would be worth it...
It's indeed weird wording...
I wouldn't have posted this if it wasn't completely unclear. I posted this to see other people's opinions.
I'd also really like to see where the line is on Feral Combat Training right now... because there's tons of feats that have improved unarmed strike as a prequisite, and it's often quite unclear how they would play out with Feral Combat training.
A natural weapon is a weapon with its own intrinsic properties. Unarmed strike, though it becomes a type of natural weapon with Improved Unarmed, has different intrinsic properties.
FCT is poorly worded, and should likely read something like this:
"Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. You may treat the selected natural weapon as an unarmed strike for the purpose of activating feat effects which are activated when you use an unarmed strike."
Many IUAS-based feats apply to grappling and thus would not have interplay with natural weapons unless you have a relevant monster ability such as Grab. Sand Strike is IUAS-based, but explicitly applies to a cestus. So a dwarf werebear can't put the sand in his mouth.
Monastic Legacy changes the damage of your unarmed strike, and is there to compensate multiclass monks. It doesn't affect your claws any more than it would affect your nunchucks.
Unarmed strike, though it becomes a type of natural weapon with Improved Unarmed
What? Just... what?
I'd also really like to see where the line is on Feral Combat Training right now... because there's tons of feats that have improved unarmed strike as a prequisite, and it's often quite unclear how they would play out with Feral Combat training.
In most cases, act as if "unarmed strike" (or an interchangeable phrase) was replaces with "attack with a claw" (or whatever natural weapon you want to apply FCT to). If "unarmed strike" doesn't appear in the description FCT doesnät do anything.
Monastic Legacy is a special case, because that feat does not reference the unarmed strike combat option, but rather the Unarmed Strike class feature of the Monk. Just like pretty much everything that uses (or changes) the Monk's unarmed damage progression, Monastic Legacy has totally screwed up language, because it isn't worded in a way that acknowledges that the Monk's US damage is a f@@#ing class feature. I don't know if it's Paizo policy to flavor fluff over language that actually makes sense, or if the writers simply lack understanding of the rules, but stuff like "determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage" is bull s@$! wording.
What Monastic Legacy really does is make half levels in classes other than Monk stack with the character's Monk levels to determine the effects of the Unarmed Strike class feature.
Of course, I'm pretty sure that whoever at WotC thought that having a class feature bear the same name as a general combat option was doing drugs. I can't believe anyone with a fully working brain would ever do that.
It doesn't take drugs to word something badly, it just takes a gaming group who will interpret your words the same way you do.
On the actual question though - I'm not sure that monastic legacy changing the damage of your unarmed strike would then allow you to use FCT to change the damage of your natural weapon. I am sure it's not RAI.
The menhir guardian monk archetype, and the entire shifter class does something like this without the headache and I'd point you to one of those were I your GM.
It doesn't take drugs to word something badly
To word something badly? No. Although I think I'm not out of line when I expect some level of professionality from people who expect to get paid for their work. But giving multiple things the exact same name? That's stupidity on a level that makes me question their sanity. And I think I'm justified in doing so, because it's about the same thing as giving your dog the same name as your son.
Unarmed strike, though it becomes a type of natural weapon with Improved UnarmedWhat? Just... what?
Sorry, bad interpretation on my part to how a monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon.
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I don't understand why this looks unclear. Monastic Legacy has IUS as a feat requirement. Feral Combat Training opens up feats that have IUS as a feat requirement for use with 1 type of natural attack. Why do people think it is not supposed to function?
The cost to make it work is also pretty high. 3 feats and 2 levels of monk or 6 feats with no levels of monk.
I don't understand why this looks unclear. Monastic Legacy has IUS as a feat requirement. Feral Combat Training opens up feats that have IUS as a feat requirement for use with 1 type of natural attack. Why do people think it is not supposed to function?
Because Monastic Legacy only alters a class feature, it doesn't do anything in itself. Feral Combat Training makes a feat that affects or requires an unarmed strike affect or work with a natural attack instead, but Monastic Legacy doesn't (directly) affect unarmed strikes.
Sorry, bad interpretation on my part to how a monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon.
Ah, you meant the Unarmed Strike class feature, not the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Just to make sure you understand it correctly: The idea that a Monk's unarmed strikes count as natural weapons (or manufactured weapons) is a gross misconception. "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Rules are neither spells or effects, and thus for the sake of rules, a Monk's unamed strike is just like anyone else's unarmed strike.
I don't understand why this looks unclear. Monastic Legacy has IUS as a feat requirement. Feral Combat Training opens up feats that have IUS as a feat requirement for use with 1 type of natural attack. Why do people think it is not supposed to function?
The cost to make it work is also pretty high. 3 feats and 2 levels of monk or 6 feats with no levels of monk.
So... I'll try a different approach to explaining this.
We have two awakened wolves trained in a monastery, Anteri (monk 9) and Ilsbeth (monk 3 / ranger 6). Both have Feral Combat Training (bite), and Ilsbeth has Monastic Legacy.
1. FCT doesn't cause a natural weapon to use the monk's Unarmed Strike chart to determine its damage. It allows the natural weapon to flurry, and to use feats like Elemental Fist that activate with unarmed strikes.
- Thus, while Anteri's unarmed strikes (headbutts? Pseudo-slams? Paw slaps?) deal 1d10, his bite does {1d6 and trip}.
2. Monastic Legacy improves your position on the Unarmed Strike chart based on half of your non-monk levels. It doesn't change the first point - your natural weapon still doesn't use the Unarmed Strike chart!
- Thus, Ilsbeth's unarmed strikes would function at 6th (3 + 6/2) level, dealing 1d8. Her bite would still do {1d6 and trip}.
Of course, FCT allows them to mix bites and unarmed strikes into their Flurry of Blows sequence, letting them try for trips early on, then switching to karate when the target is knocked down. Handy!
Well, I'd still say it's up for debate.
The unarmed strike damage of the monk might be a class feature, but Monastic Legacy is a feat that applies the effect of using that class feature as if it's a higher level.
While you could argue that the class feature is there on the side of things, getting altered only as a technicallity whilst having no effect on the natural weapon being used in this case...
But you could also argue that since Monastic Legacy is a feat that will apply as effect on unarmed strike that it's damage is treated as if a monk of a higher level, then it is most certainly an effect that's being applied by a feat and therefor should alter the natural attack.
The wording still leaves too much up for debate if you ask me.
Monastic Legacy is a feat that applies the effect of using that class feature as if it's a higher level.
FCT only applies feats. That's absolutely clearly said in the feat's description. A class feature is not a feat. Therefore, FCT doesn't apply class features.
So, OK, the natural weapon's damage is calculated as if the Monk level was higher than normal. Since the damage of the natural attack is not calculated based on Monk level, as that would require the application of a class feature that as established isn't applied, this does nothing.
FCT only applies feats. That's absolutely clearly said in the feat's description. A class feature is not a feat. Therefore, FCT doesn't apply class features.
So, OK, the natural weapon's damage is calculated as if the Monk level was higher than normal. Since the damage of the natural attack is not calculated based on Monk level, as that would require the application of a class feature that as established isn't applied, this does nothing.
I see where you're comming from, but I'd like to point you to a sneaky 3rd feat...
Prerequisite(s): Ascetic Form; Ascetic Style; Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon; base attack bonus +7 or monk level 7th.
Benefit(s): You can use the unarmed strike damage of a monk 4 levels lower than your character level (minimum 1st) instead of the base damage for the chosen weapon. Ascetic Strike functions in all other ways as the brawler’s close weapon mastery class feature.
In addition, you ignore the still mind class feature prerequisite for the Monastic Legacy feat.
As Bladelock pointed out in less words, and as you'll realize while reading Ascetic Strike... It's very well possible to obtain Monestic Legacy without being an actual monk.
This means that someone who doesn't have the unarmed strike monk class feature gets the added damage to unarmed strike completely from the feat Monestic Legacy. No class feature present to begin with.
That means the damage is applied through the feat, not the class feature.
The feat merely applies it's effect as per said class feature.
If you build into the Ascetic Style feat chain for Ascetic Strike, you wouldn't ever need Monastic Legacy... also Monastic Legacy wouldn't have any effect on your "Unarmed Strike Damage" from Ascetic Strike, as it is specifically "as a monk 4 levels lower than your character level" adding half of your non-monk levels to your monk levels for determining your unarmed strike damage won't change the result from Ascetic Style. If your a level 15 Fighter with Ascetic Style, you do damage with your chosen weapon as if you were a level 11 Monk using unarmed strike, if the same character somehow qualified for and took Monastic Legacy, their damage would still be as a level 11 monk's unarmed strike.
I see where you're comming from, but I'd like to point you to a sneaky 3rd feat...
** spoiler omitted **
As Bladelock pointed out in less words, and as you'll realize while reading Ascetic Strike... It's very well possible to obtain Monestic Legacy without being an actual monk.
It's a feat from a splat book (which only see very limited editing), and the freelance writer (not an employee of Paizo!) actually apologized for the unclear/bad wording of the feat chain.
Yes, having Monastic Legacy without having the actual class feature produces a very weird situation, because of the bad wording of the ML only indirectly referencing and not actually mentioning class features. But that doesn't change how things interact without the AStrike. Under a benign interpretation that allows it to work, Astrike creates a special situation with ML that basically allows the latter to grant the class feature (or the effects thereof). If you want to argue that in that situation, FCT applies that virtual class feature to the chosen natural attack, I won't oppose you.
But without taking the AStrike, the feat doesn't have any effect.
Even if it would work, it would only count non-Monk-levels. So if you took it on a Monk3/Barbarian4, you'd get the damage of a 2nd level Monk, 1d6.
For the record, I'd totally allow it as a GM, because it's very weak. Takign AStrike is obviously crap, but even then, it takes two feats (plus Weapon Focus which is pretty weak on a natural attack build), and three levels in cMonk (or four in unMonk), for a pretty small effect.
If you build into the Ascetic Style feat chain for Ascetic Strike, you wouldn't ever need Monastic Legacy... also Monastic Legacy wouldn't have any effect on your "Unarmed Strike Damage" from Ascetic Strike, as it is specifically "as a monk 4 levels lower than your character level" adding half of your non-monk levels to your monk levels for determining your unarmed strike damage won't change the result from Ascetic Style. If your a level 15 Fighter with Ascetic Style, you do damage with your chosen weapon as if you were a level 11 Monk using unarmed strike, if the same character somehow qualified for and took Monastic Legacy, their damage would still be as a level 11 monk's unarmed strike.
Ascetic style & follow up doesn't effect natural weapons, it effects a selected monk weapon for which you have weapon focus. Natural weapons aren't monk weapons.
This is also a style, which means it activates on stance, while monastic legacy is a "passive" effect.So that is beside the point. For the purpose of this scenario, ascetic strike is merely very high feat tax.
The point still is, Monastic Legacy has the ability to grant the entire class feature to a character that doesn't have it.
I disagree with the idea that ascetic strike is "merely high feat tax." It has a vital explicit function which, taken in comparison to its requisite feats, actually proves that feral combat training + monastic legacy cannot possibly be a combo.
1. The first feat, Ascetic Style, allows you to choose one monk-group weapon (for which you have Weapon Focus) and apply the following while using it:
- The effects of feats that have {IUAS} as prerequisite;
- "Effects that augment an unarmed strike."
- Special: Monks, and characters with weapon training (monk), can use Ascetic Style with ALL monk-group weapons.
If we compare this to FCT, the second line is what was intentionally removed from FCT by the errata. Let's move on.
2. The second feat, Ascetic Form, allows you to use Ascetic Style in conjunction with class features such as the Unmonk's style strike, which normally require unarmed strikes to activate.
This is comparable to the special on FCT, which allows the natural weapon to be used with Flurry of Blows.
3. Ascetic Strike lets you deal damage with your Ascetic Style weapon based on the unarmed strike chart, at {effective monk level = character level -4}, as though you were a brawler activating Close Weapons Mastery. It also serves as an alternative to Still Mind for taking Monastic Legacy (with which it does NOT stack, even for actual unarmed strikes.)
And if Ascetic Strike is required to get onto the unarmed strike chart and doesn't stack with Monastic Legacy, then there is no possible argument for Ascetic Style to "apply" Monastic Legacy.
Therefore, FCT does not apply Monastic Legacy.
A is slightly simular to B.
B gets a better effect than C.
B and C do not stack.
There is no point to take C when you have B.
your conclusion; oh, that means A cannot possibly work with C.
Just because an effect doesn't stack, doesn't mean the "lower" option can't be applied. Non-stacking feats do not mean in the slightest that a simular feat of a prequisite of said feat does not work together either.
Besides, as I pointed out before, Ascetic Style is a style feat, thus a stance. It's not an effect that is always present, it needs to be activated. Unlike Monastic Legacy that is always present.
Also, if anything... the fact that you can get Monastic Legacy through Ascetic Style only implies they would interact.
Event though they clearly don't stack, but that's besides the point. Not stacking =/= not functional; both effects are functional, you just take the highest of the two.
First off, I disagree with the notion that Feral Combat Training and Ascetic Style are "slightly simular"(sic). They're not merely slightly similar - in fact, they have the exact same function with regard to the question of feat interactions!
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Second, Ascetic Style being condition-based, and Monastic Legacy passive, only matters in one case - when actually using the weapon called "unarmed strike." This is because Monastic Legacy determines that weapon's base damage dice, and Ascetic Strike allows you to use an alternative damage dice "instead of the base damage". Thus, if you're in the stance, you use Ascetic Strike if it's better. If you're not in the stance, you don't use Ascetic Strike.
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Of course, now we're full circle. The question is whether "determines the base damage of an unarmed strike" is a feat effect that should be applicable. It's at least apparent from the errata's purpose that this is not the case for FCT.
Before the errata, there was a FAQ issued (29 Oct 2013) for FCT which explicitly allowed the unarmed strike table to count as an "effect which augments." If Monastic Legacy, as a feat, were understood to do that on its own, the FAQ would not answered it as yes. Instead, what popped up after the FAQ were these builds seeking to exploit it - typically druids using high-power builds such as the hippo biter or the octomonk. Synthesists and barbarians also messed with it to varying degree.
The errata was issued 20 Aug 2015 (based on its blog post).
There's also this, from the guy who wrote Ascetic Style:
However, I also believe that the Feral Combat Training errata swung the feat too far in the other direction. After this year’s errata, Feral Combat Training only works with the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite and the flurry of blows class feature. That list is REALLY small, and it totally misses the one REALLY fun thing about Feral Combat Training: having savage monks that used their monk damage progression for Feral Combat Training. That part was never the broken part; it was all of the other effects that you could apply to Feral Combat Training, like Pummeling Style and the like.
How It Could Be Fixed: An errata that makes specific mention that the character can use its unarmed strike damage in place of the natural weapon’s normal damage. Heck, even if you had to add a monk level –4 clause (like the close combat mastery class feature), that would be fine with me.
While you might not take much value in this, it is insight into a game developer's mind concerning the feat interactions in question. His proposed fix shows an understanding that the errata disallows the interaction with Monastic Legacy, since his fix is to simply allow the natural weapon to use the unarmed strike table.
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Putting it all together:
By RAW, it's questionable (or, as you say, "up for debate") that Monastic Legacy's effect could still apply to post-nerf Feral Combat Training. If we accept it as being questionable, then we have to turn to RAI - and RAI says "absotively and posilutely not!"