I'm building a half elf unchained rogue.
I'm looking for advice on building it to maximize the best level by level.
Looking for some solid advice.
Although I know I already want to pick feats and skills that allow me to live such as toughness evasion offensive defensive.
So I have a good start but the majority of character survivability is picking the right skills the right feats every level.
What more should I know about unchained rogue?
This is my first attempt to build play a unchained rogue.
Trying to pool knowledge how best to build and play one.
Usually I'm a tank or spell casting type of character.
RavagerReqz wrote: I'm building a half elf unchained rogue.
I'm looking for advice on building it to maximize the best level by level.
Looking for some solid advice.
Although I know I already want to pick feats and skills that allow me to live such as toughness evasion offensive defensive.
So I have a good start but the majority of character survivability is picking the right skills the right feats every level.
What more should I know about unchained rogue?
This is my first attempt to build play a unchained rogue.
Trying to pool knowledge how best to build and play one.
Usually I'm a tank or spell casting type of character.
What kind of Campaign is it?
How are your party setup?
Which level do you start at?
Do you want to multiclass ?
Ranged or melee build?
How are you going to get sneak attacks in?
Some quick comments:
Offensive defence is a Core Rogue talent only.
Will saves are more important than toughness feat.
So, this seems to be the second thread... did you decide to ditch the Hunter part?
And how fixated are you on Rogue? Because if you're working on a concept of what you want your character to have, and not just try to build a Rogue for then sake of building a Rogue, there a very high chance that other classes are a better fit. Even if you want to build a dex-based character without spells who's good at stealth and skills in general, can disable magic traps, and targets an enemy's vital points with their attacks and get extra d6s on damage rolls when doign so, Rogue is not the best class for that.
The thing I like best about Unchained Rogue is Finesse Training. The thing I like best about Elves is that Elven Curved Blade. The thing I like best about the Elven Curved Blade is that Threat Range of 18-20. And when I think about Crit Fishing, I think about the Outflank Feat.
I like dipping a lot. Outflank is a Teamwork Feat, so I'd have you dip a level in Cavalier (with the Constable Archetype, probably) and get Tactician and gift the Outflank Feat to all your allies. Dip a level in Arcanist and take the Dimesnional Slide Arcane Exploit. It's a 10' Teleport that you can do as part of your Move. Not much, but that should be just enough to guaranty you can achieve Flanking and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. Also, it allows you to use any Sorcerer or Wizard Wand such as a Wand of Greater Invisibility when you can afford to buy one.
Since you aren't a Full BAB character, there's no reason not to make lots of use of Improved Feint to lock in your SA Damage. I also like Dirty Tricks to Blind your opponents and lock in your SA Damage that way. Dirty Tricks is Feat-expensive, though: You need Dirty Fighting or Combat Expertise, Improved, Greater, and Quick dirty tricks. Improved Dirty Trick is available as the Underhanded Trick Rogue Talent. The nice thing about Dirty Tricks, is that they work on more kinds of opponents. If you Blind a creature with Blindsight, you can play another DT and Deafen them, too, and that should put your SA Damage back on the menu.
Rogues do best when they get sneak attack and sneak attack doesn't multiply on a crit.
That's not to say ignore crits altogether, but it's not worth building around the elven curved blade.
An unchained rogue is usually built as a two weapon fighter, relying on something like a rapier and something light. If you can get martial weapon proficiency without a feat kukri are good.
Claxon wrote: Rogues do best when they get sneak attack and sneak attack doesn't multiply on a crit. Fair enough.
Claxon wrote: That's not to say ignore crits altogether, but it's not worth building around the elven curved blade. But Elven Curved Blades are lovely, and the OP has an elf. It just makes sense. It just takes a 1 level dip in a Full BAB Class to become proficient, such as Cavalier. Then he get's Outflank as a Bonus Feat and has a high Threat Range weapon that does a respectable 1d10 damage, and he'll get extra Attacks of Opportunity, or at least be passing them along to his allies. AoO builds work well with Rogues because Combat Reflex and Roguishness work well with high Dex. Outflank works when you are Flanking, and he'll want to be flanking a lot anyway because Rogue.
Claxon wrote: An unchained rogue is usually built as a two weapon fighter, relying on something like a rapier and something light. So like Rapier and Short Sword with a combined 2d6 as opposed to my 1d10, but 2wf if you have the 2wf Feat still imposes a -2 on both attacks. But double attacks means double Sneak Attack Damage. The OP has a choice to make. Claxon wrote: If you can get martial weapon proficiency without a feat kukri are good. With what I'm proposing, he would get proficiency with Kukris without spending a Feat. Kukris also have an 18-20 Threat Range, so would be twice as likely to trigger Outflank. Curious you should suggest Kukri instead of Dagger. They do the same amount of Damage. Daggers are Simple Weapons and don't require any Feats for a Rogue to use them, and Daggers have a Range Increment where Kukris are melee only. The only benefit Kukris have over Daggers is that Kukris have a better Threat Range, and you were just advising against a Crit-Fishing Rogue.
Be cool. Play an Ankou's Shadow Slayer. Take the Gang Up feat. Flank with yourself. Have your shadow clones take hits for you. Survivability-wise they're bulkier than Rogues with a good Fortitude save and medium armor proficiency. Go the Dervish Dance route if you really want Dex to Damage.
@Scott, I suggested kukri as sort of the best combination of crit fishing and two weapon fighting if the OP is intent on doing that sort of thing.
I was simply trying to provide advice to the effect of "What you're proposing to do isn't an optimized plan. It doesn't make it wrong, but it possibly wont be as effective as you like."
A dip into a class with martial weapon proficiency and full BAB isn't a bad idea, but counter point is....why not go straight Slayer.
Sure you don't get dex to damage, but with sneak attack and studied target you can forgo dex to damage and just be a dex based slayer with minimal strength (you don't really need other stats so you can be dex>str=con>wis>>int/cha).
Alternatively you can use the ranger combat style feats to ignore the dex requirements on twf feats and just pick up two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting (ignoring greater) and just go str based, but you'd still want some dex for AC.
Even with dex to damage of the Unchained Rogue, there's not much reason to play one over a Slayer.
Claxon wrote: @Scott, I suggested kukri as sort of the best combination of crit fishing and two weapon fighting if the OP is intent on doing that sort of thing. Cool. I suggested the Elven Curved Blade because the OP said he wanted to play an Elf.
Claxon wrote: I was simply trying to provide advice to the effect of "What you're proposing to do isn't an optimized plan. It doesn't make it wrong, but it possibly wont be as effective as you like." You know I'm all about exploiting the rules for mechanical advantage when building my own characters.
Claxon wrote: A dip into a class with martial weapon proficiency and full BAB isn't a bad idea, but counter point is....why not go straight Slayer. 2 reasons I see: 1, you get more Sneak Attack Damage as a Rogue, and 2, The OP said he wanted to be a Rogue.
Claxon wrote: Sure you don't get dex to damage, Okay, so 3
Claxon wrote: but with sneak attack and studied target you can forgo dex to damage and just be a dex based slayer with minimal strength (you don't really need other stats so you can be dex>str=con>wis>>int/cha).
Alternatively you can use the ranger combat style feats to ignore the dex requirements on twf feats and just pick up two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting (ignoring greater) and just go str based, but you'd still want some dex for AC.
Even with dex to damage of the Unchained Rogue, there's not much reason to play one over a Slayer.
And with the Bounty Hunter Slayer Archetype, the OP can get a Class Ability that works like Quick Dirty Trick in just a couple of levels.
If we wanted to really go off on a tangent, then in addition to the 1 level dip in Cavalier, he could take a 5 level dip in Inquisitor. With Solo Tactics, he can also take Paired Opportunist, then he also gets a Attack of Opportunity whenever he scores a Crit with his Elven Curved Blade. He misses out on SA Damage, but that can be offset by taking the Precise Strike Teamwork Feat in addition to Accomplished Sneak Attacer and more than offset by taking Bane. Plus, better Will Saves.
I mean for that matters there's Sanctified Slayer which is an Inquisitor with Sneak Attack, if he's really wanting Sneak Attack.
At the end of the day, sneak attack isn't a great class feature but can be fun to incorporate into a build.
Assuming the OP is interested in sneak attack, there are classes that do it much better than even the Uncahined Rogue, as long as sneak attack damage dice aren't your only guide. Slayer and Inquisitor both do it better because they get attack bonuses from their class (and damage bonuses too). The lack of dex to damage doesn't really matter because of the inherent damage bonuses on the other classes.
And if you're going to focus on sneak attack (and damage) then two weapon fighting is much better idea than used a two handed weapons (like a Elven Curved Blade).
Just because someone is playing an Elf doesn't mean Elven Curved blade is a good idea for a build, at least in my opinion it's a bad idea for a sneak attack build.
Even you seem to be admitting that ditching Rogue and going Bounty Hunter Slayer or Sanctified Slayer would accomplish the OPs goal and be a stronger build.
I'm not sure if we're arguing against one another or just talking past each other.
Claxon wrote: if you're going to focus on sneak attack (and damage) then two weapon fighting is much better idea than used a two handed weapons (like a Elven Curved Blade). More Attacks is better, but if you have an Attack of Opportunity Build or a highly mobile build, that probably favors 2 handed weapons. 2 handed weapons are usually also better with Great Cleave.
2 Weapon Fighting is usually better for Full Attacking, but the best Full Attack Sneak Attack option would be a Natural Attack build. Play a Tengu with Claws, a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, and dip a level in White Haired Witch. Finesse Training can only be taken for 1 weapon, though, so in that case you'd be better off with some other Sneak Attack Class like Vivisectionist. When you are high enough level, you can use an Extract of Echolocation and an Eversmoking Bottle.
Claxon wrote: Just because someone is playing an Elf doesn't mean Elven Curved blade is a good idea for a build, at least in my opinion it's a bad idea for a sneak attack build. It all depends on the build. I'm not just trying to offer the most optimized build: we don't know a lot about what the OP wants. I'm just brainstorming about Dexterity, Sneak Attacks, and being Elfy. Crit Fishing is an extension from the Elven Curved Blade.
Claxon wrote: Even you seem to be admitting that ditching Rogue and going Bounty Hunter Slayer or Sanctified Slayer would accomplish the OPs goal and be a stronger build. For my own builds I tend to multiclass very aggressively. It's likely that by level 12, I don't have any class above level 4.
Claxon wrote: I'm not sure if we're arguing against one another or just talking past each other. I think you're hating on the Elven Curved Blade overly, but I like some of your ideas, or at least your ideas give me ideas that I like.
I mean the elven curved blade is a fine weapon for a dex based build using two-handed weapons, I just didn't think that was the direction OP wanted.
I was mostly imagining the OP wanted a high damage build that maximized sneak attack, which despite often having less sneak attack dice than a rogue, other classes do it better due to having class based bonuses to attack (and usually to damage).
Elven curved blade is one of the best two-handed dex weapons.
The nodachi is probably the best two-handed strength based weapon.
Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting.
The main thing is very little damage comes from weapon dice in PF1, so they're almost irrelevant. Crit range and and special qualities of the weapon are usually what make the good.
I don't feel like I was overly hating on the elven curved blade, but it just did mesh with what I was thinking the OP wanted.
The OP may come back and say "Yes, this is exactly what I wanted, you can take your two weapon fighting and shove it" but as you noted they didn't actually give much detail on what they really wanted.
Claxon wrote: I mean the elven curved blade is a fine weapon for a dex based build using two-handed weapons, I just didn't think that was the direction OP wanted. Maybe, I don't know enough about what the OP wants.
My advice is going in a few directions at once: hey you're an elf, so elven curved blade, hey high threat range, so Outflank, hey, and Flanking helps with SA Damage, and yay! Attacks of Opportunity with high Dex! I'm just brainstorming, here.
I guess a really important question to ask is how do you intend to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage? One of the things people complain about Sneak Attack Damage is that it's conditional: you only get it if your opponent is Flanked or denied their Dex Mod to AC somehow, and there are certain creatures: Oozes, Swarms, and incorporeal undead, that are immune. But if you know 2-3 tricks, those conditional conditions can be made to happen all the time.
Greater Invisibility: As a Half-Elf, you can take an Alternate Racial Trait that gives you the ability to use any Arcane Magic Wand. It's called Arcane Training. A Wand of Greater Invisibility is very expensive, but the ability to use any magic wand has tremendous utility, and not all Wands are all that expensive.
Ninja Vanishing Trick: I really like this for a Ninja Sniper. You can use Vanish to then shank someone while you are Invisible, or you can use Vanish to make you unobserved that round, then use Stealth to find yourself a hidy-hole to shoot from. Remaining hidden after shooting someone from Stealth requires a 2nd Stealth check Opposed by Perception, and the sniper gets a -20 on the roll. So take the Rogue Talent False Attacker, which allows you to stay hidden if only by a simple Bluff Check opposed by Sense Motive which you can make as an Immediate Action, and you still get the Stealth Check if that fails. If I want a character that does this, I really prefer Ninja to Unchained Rogue, but you can do this as an UCR by taking the Rogue Talents Ki Pool, which then lets you take the Ninja Trick Rogue Talent. As a Half Elf, you can learn the Orc Hornbow (any Exotic Weapon) as an Alternate Racial Trait, but for a character like this I really like a Wand of Scorching Ray: Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flatfooted AC that locks in Sneak Attack Damage. Just try to say that out loud without your face splitting open into your Evil Grin!
Dimensional Slide: Dip a single level into Arcanist, and you get a +2 Will Save (the most important Save), the ability to cast 0 and 1st level spells, and an Arcane Exploit. I really like Dimensional Slide. Dimensional Slide is a 10' Teleport that you can make as part of your Move. 10' isn't much, but it should make it very easy to achieve Flanking. And at the cost of a 1 level dip, it's a Steal.
Dirty Tricks: This is expensive: Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting, then Improved, Greater, and Quick Dirty Tricks. The idea is you play a Dirty Trick to Blind your opponent, so they are denied Dex. The nice part is if you run into a creature with Blindfighting, Blindsight, or Blindsense, you can play a 2nd Dirty Trick to Deafen them as well. Blind and Deaf, Sneak Attacks are back on the table most of the time. When you have Quick Dirty Trick, it costs an Attack.
Feinting: Improved Feint lets you Feint as a Move Action. 2 Feats, Feint as a Move Action, then Sneak Attack as a Standard Action.
Canny Tumble: this requires Dodge and Mobility first, but it's quite powerful. If you tumble through a Threatened Square without Provoking an Attack of Opportunity, your opponent is denied Dex-to-AC. This is especially nice if you intend to skirmish and move around the battlefield a lot.
Improvised Weapons: with Catch off Guard, your Unarmed Opponents are Flatfooted. With Improved Catch off Guard, your Armed Opponents are Flatfooted, too. ICOG is a 3rd Party Feat, though, so a lot of GMs won't allow it. I saw a build on these forums that combined COG with Improved Disarm: once her opponents were Disarmed, they were then Flatfooted!
Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd?
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Well, kukri ARE the best TWF weapon for crit-based builds. There's not really much to discuss here, the math checks out.
Gorbacz wrote: Well, kukri ARE the best TWF weapon for crit-based builds. There's not really much to discuss here, the math checks out. Depends on who you are, but in general yeah. Sawtooth Sabres are cool to consider. Fighters can Effortless Dual-wield Falcatas.
Gorbacz wrote: Well, kukri ARE the best TWF weapon for crit-based builds. There's not really much to discuss here, the math checks out. The OP is playing a Half Elf. He can take an Exotic Weapon as an Alternate Racial Trait such Estoc: 1 handed, 2d4 Piercing, and Threat Range 18-20. He can 2 Weapon Fight with Estoc and Kukri.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd? I was half-joking.
Here's a thought: Spear Dancing Style Feats let you take any Pole Arm and make it Finessable, Double (the butt-end is treated as a Light Mace), Reach, and any Quarterstaff Feat can be used with your Pole Arm of Choice.
My Pole Arm of Choice is the Halberd. Halberds do 1d10 Piercing or Slashing. They are Tripping and Brace weapons. So a Halberd with Spear Dancing Style Feats is a Tripping, Brace, Finessable, Double, Reach Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage! This would make a very tricksy melee character, so not a little roguish.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd? I was half-joking.
Here's a thought: Spear Dancing Style Feats let you take any Pole Arm and make it Finessable, Double (the butt-end is treated as a Light Mace), Reach, and any Quarterstaff Feat can be used with your Pole Arm of Choice.
My Pole Arm of Choice is the Halberd. Halberds do 1d10 Piercing or Slashing. They are Tripping and Brace weapons. So a Halberd with Spear Dancing Style Feats is a Tripping, Brace, Finessable, Double, Reach Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage! This would make a very tricksy melee character, so not a little roguish.
Halberd is not a reach weapon. You have to take Spear Dancing Reach ro get that.
*Khan* wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd? I was half-joking.
Here's a thought: Spear Dancing Style Feats let you take any Pole Arm and make it Finessable, Double (the butt-end is treated as a Light Mace), Reach, and any Quarterstaff Feat can be used with your Pole Arm of Choice.
My Pole Arm of Choice is the Halberd. Halberds do 1d10 Piercing or Slashing. They are Tripping and Brace weapons. So a Halberd with Spear Dancing Style Feats is a Tripping, Brace, Finessable, Double, Reach Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage! This would make a very tricksy melee character, so not a little roguish.
Halberd is not a reach weapon. You have to take Spear Dancing Reach to get that. Yes.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: *Khan* wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd? I was half-joking.
Here's a thought: Spear Dancing Style Feats let you take any Pole Arm and make it Finessable, Double (the butt-end is treated as a Light Mace), Reach, and any Quarterstaff Feat can be used with your Pole Arm of Choice.
My Pole Arm of Choice is the Halberd. Halberds do 1d10 Piercing or Slashing. They are Tripping and Brace weapons. So a Halberd with Spear Dancing Style Feats is a Tripping, Brace, Finessable, Double, Reach Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage! This would make a very tricksy melee character, so not a little roguish.
Halberd is not a reach weapon. You have to take Spear Dancing Reach to get that. Yes. Hmm that is a 6 feat-chain + dex 17 prerequest.
I think RavagerReqz has left the thread...
But if you are still watching please let us know and I will post a level by level build.
for the unchained rogue, two-weapon fighting allows you to maximize the usefulness of Debilitating Injury, allowing your first sneak attack to lower the opponent's AC, helping the second weapon to hit, and then replace that one with an attack penalty to increase your and your parties effective AC. Kukiri's as mentioned are best and pair with Knife Master for increased sneak attack die type and you can really pump out some damage while debilitating your opponent's.
*Khan* wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: *Khan* wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd? I was half-joking.
Here's a thought: Spear Dancing Style Feats let you take any Pole Arm and make it Finessable, Double (the butt-end is treated as a Light Mace), Reach, and any Quarterstaff Feat can be used with your Pole Arm of Choice.
My Pole Arm of Choice is the Halberd. Halberds do 1d10 Piercing or Slashing. They are Tripping and Brace weapons. So a Halberd with Spear Dancing Style Feats is a Tripping, Brace, Finessable, Double, Reach Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage! This would make a very tricksy melee character, so not a little roguish.
Halberd is not a reach weapon. You have to take Spear Dancing Reach to get that. Yes. Hmm that is a 6 feat-chain + dex 17 prerequest. Meh, there's good reason to take 2 Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Finesse, anyway. The OP wants to play an Unchained Rogue, so he gets Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat, and he wants a high Dex regardless.
Given all that, I really only see it as 3 Feats: spear dancing Style, Spiral, and Reach. And those 3 Feats give you a lot: they make your weapon Double, Reach, and Finesseable. I don't think the Feat Tax is all that high, considering.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: *Khan* wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: *Khan* wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Claxon wrote: Kurki's are probably the best weapon for two weapon fighting. Oh yeah? What about Halberd? I was half-joking.
Here's a thought: Spear Dancing Style Feats let you take any Pole Arm and make it Finessable, Double (the butt-end is treated as a Light Mace), Reach, and any Quarterstaff Feat can be used with your Pole Arm of Choice.
My Pole Arm of Choice is the Halberd. Halberds do 1d10 Piercing or Slashing. They are Tripping and Brace weapons. So a Halberd with Spear Dancing Style Feats is a Tripping, Brace, Finessable, Double, Reach Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning Damage! This would make a very tricksy melee character, so not a little roguish.
Halberd is not a reach weapon. You have to take Spear Dancing Reach to get that. Yes. Hmm that is a 6 feat-chain + dex 17 prerequest. Meh, there's good reason to take 2 Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Finesse, anyway. The OP wants to play an Unchained Rogue, so he gets Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat, and he wants a high Dex regardless.
Given all that, I really only see it as 3 Feats: spear dancing Style, Spiral, and Reach. And those 3 Feats give you a lot: they make your weapon Double, Reach, and Finesseable. I don't think the Feat Tax is all that high, considering. You are right. You can get them all by level 5 as a half elf if you dont have an archtype that replaces a level 2 or 4 rogue talent.
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Matching 2 weapons such as kukri is far better than getting a bit of damage from an estoc and then a kukri offhand.
You'll need to pick a weapon to dex to damage and also pick a weapon focus feat. Make the weapons match and skip a bit. Dont double dip options you only need once.
I'm a fan of intimidate/shattered defense builds, combined with cruel weapons to sicken those you shake and grab extra HP.
Best to grab a few scrolls of greater invisibility before you get there. But specialize in skill unlock intimidate and then turn shaken to panic as you level up. Get free hits as they run, drop weapons and scatter. Allows full damage, no weapons to hit back and no one to hit you back. Even the few that resist you'll have a lot of temp hp to stay going.
Fairly easy to get into, dazzling display can do it, as well as any crit / kill to intimidate feat.
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