I would like to see the Summoner strongly influenced by the four sources of Magic (Divine, Occult, Arcane, and Primal). By looking at the 1E Summoner, Summoner Archetypes, and Spiritualist we have a good idea of what these four types of Summoners might look like. Interestingly, of the four traditions, I think the Arcane Summoner needs the most development. Below is a very brief snapshot of how I think the four traditions can be expressed.
God-Caller, Divine Spell List, Summons Paragon (Paragon = Unique Divine Entity from Outer Planes)
Spiritualist, Occult Spell List, Summons Phantom (Phantom = Unique Mortal Spirit, Animated Dream, or Shadow Creature)
Conjurer, Arcane Spell List, Summons Eidolon (Eidolon = Unique Manifestation of Arcane Energies)
Pagan, Primal Spell List, Summons Avatar (Avatar = Unique Elemental Entity or Nature Spirit)
I would love to hear what everyone else hopes to see in a 2E Summoner.
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I want the chassis to resemble a caster's, yet with no spell list (though ample Focus Spell options). I would like to encompass all the "pet" varieties from PF1 if possible, i.e. Hunter, Spiritualist, etc., though that might be a matter of skinning or feat selection rather than intrinsic pet differences (much like a PF2 Familiar).
I'd like the basic Eidolon to be comparable to a martial (albeit by proxy), therefore the Summoner itself should only be as powerful as an Animal Companion. Essentially they're swapping roles.
One way I see doing this is to have various generic Eidolon options (animal, fiend, angel, elemental(s), etc.) and class feats that allow the Summoner to boost it (w/ powers & flavor on par w/ Barbarian Instincts, though maybe not the raw melee damage). The boosts would be round by round, similar to a Bard. Focus Spells could be used to heal it, maybe give it a more powerful 1-minute buff, for it to breathe fire, and so forth.
And if the Summoner didn't want an Eidolon, those same feats, Focus Spells, etc. could instead be used to buff their summoned monsters (perhaps w/ one buff automatically that comes w/ maintaining the summons).
And their Summoned Monsters would come from a Focus Spell, perhaps with a feat network like Wild Shape which opens up further options along the way AND gives passive bonuses too so they don't feel wasted when you advance past them (nor do you need most as a prereq).
Whether these summons should mirror Wild Shape stats (limited set of creatures w/ given stats) or mirror the actual spells' variety would be for further discussion, maybe with both routes available.
I guess it might be good to have options for a skilled Eidolon.
Built alongside a Shifter, I could see the feats & unlocked powers being very comparable except one class is out in the fray while the other fights be proxy.
Something like this summoner
Just some rough ideas so far. But basically a wizard with little offensive magic, with the option of a eidolon that is a bit better than an animal companion. Still needs a lot of work.
Is it bad I'm happy seeing another thread named like this?
I never played or built a Summoner, but I think the most important thing is balance. I mean that's obvious, but I don't mean just mechanically and statistically. I mean those also have to be balanced with gameplay satisfaction.
For starters, how minions work in 2e means you spend an action to give your companion/minion two actions, right? How do you make that work with Summoner? How do you make Summoner the companion class? Especially with regards to the upcoming Beastmaster archetype.
Another issue is the matter of Eidolon points. I imagine a big draw for people was having their Eidolon be customizable based on their character and how they wanted the Eidolon to play. Given 2e trends to the more simplistic (yet no less customizable) side of things, Eidolons would need to be heavily reworked in order to still find that balance.
Of course, class feats are a thing. You could build a Summoner who's focused on buffing up their Eidolon to be as strong as possible while keeping to support, or have the Eidolon be utility while the Summoner focuses on their casting.
But one thing's for sure, I don't think we're ever getting "minionmancer" back. I mean hell, Beastmaster only gets two max and is noted to have "difficulty" commanding multiple companions. But maybe we can get the whole "symbiosis" concept again. Assuming people don't hate it with a passion for (supposedly) breaking Summoner and requiring it be nerfed.
I want a narrative-driven eidolon.
I want a summoner that gives me the tools to craft a narrative around what my eidolon is and how they relate to my character. I don't want the flavor to be restricted to just a mage that summons an outsider. Having a supernatural creature as your companion can have a ton of potential story and flavor potential.
Some of my eidolon character concepts included:
- My exotic spirit animal
- A death spirit that travels with me until my death
- My childhood imaginary friend come to life
- A manifestation of song, painting, or other artwork I created
- A genie that became my spouse as a result of me drawing the Marriage from the Harrow Deck of Many Things
- A manifestation of some aspect of my personality
- A magitech automaton I created on a drunken, stormy night. Now I must spend a lifetime trying to figure out how I built it.
- An eidolon that is myself from the future or another timeline
- A creature that pretends to be my twin sister.
Most of all, a summoner should enable a diverse amount of cool character concepts.
But one thing's for sure, I don't think we're ever getting "minionmancer" back. I mean hell, Beastmaster only gets two max and is noted to have "difficulty" commanding multiple companions. But maybe we can get the whole "symbiosis" concept again. Assuming people don't hate it with a passion for (supposedly) breaking Summoner and requiring it be nerfed.
You can create a "minionmaster" by using a summon spell to summon a swarm. Yet, it is not enough for "the master of many" fantasy without using a lot of flavoring.
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the Summoner itself should only be as powerful as an Animal Companion.
I strongly agree with that.
I would certainly separate the roles of a normal character:- Skills would be on the summoner side. The Eidolon would just have very basic skills (Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception).
- Combat abilities should be on the Eidolon. The Summoner should be really weak (Expert proficiency at most, maybe Master on armors like the Alchemist).
- Actions have to be split between both of them. Like the Companion"s Cry Ranger feat, the Summoner should be able to share more actions with his Eidolon.
- The Summoner should not be a full caster. I like the idea of focus spells. But during combat the Summoner should give most of his actions to his Eidolon as it is the combat oriented character.
Anyway, when I play a Summoner, I want to have a powerful Eidolon. The character should be super weak outside what all characters have (skills mostly).
An Eidolon NEEDS to be customizable. Going with the Unchained Eidolon seems like a good start. Having a set of archetypes and then you getting control of the finer details.
Eidolons need to have full action economy.
An Eidolon needs to be able to mix and match abilities to fit anything from a full martial, to a support caster, or even a skill monkey and everything in between. If the Eidolon cannot have a variety of abilities its not really an Eidolon.
Summoners should not have their spell list determine or be determined by their Eidolon. A Summoner is an Arcane caster who has bound an outsider. Limiting the Eidolon type based on spell list will actively harm the diversity.
- It is much better to implement different spell tradition via class archetypes. That way they can also get a relevant ability.Hunters will never be Summoners. A Hunter does not summon an animal, they have animal companions.
Spiritualists Phantoms are not Eidolons. They never were Eidolon. And in fact they dont want to be around Eidolons.
** spoiler omitted **
For me the Phantom rule that you reference feels like it was largely there to keep a multi-class character from having both a Phantom and an Eidolon active at the same time. By putting both under the same chassis that conflict is eliminated.
I like your thoughts on the Eidolon having full action economy that makes a lot of sense to me.
As for the Summoner being strictly defined as an Arcane Caster, for me, that doesn't seem to match concepts like the Sarkoris God-Callers whose summoning tradition feels more Divine or Primal than it does Arcane. But having the class chassis be flexible enough to create space for Eidolons, Phantoms, etc. seems like a win for everyone. Also, this could potentially be done similar to the Champion where we get both Paladin and Anti-Paladin from the same class chassis. For example, when the class is first released we get the Arcane/Eidolon tradition but in a later book we get the Occult/Phantom tradition.