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In general, I dont think it's a major difference and would advise eventually putting Greater Doubling Rings on your shield boss hand so you can vary your main hand weapon to match the situation.
I'm not even sure Double Slice on a Shield-Fighter is a great idea. Since your mainhand weapon will advance its proficiency faster for most of your adventuring career and the shield isn't agile, you'll basically making attacks at +0 and -4. That's only very slightly better than just doing +0 and -5 with your mainhand, but the shield will most likely have a smaller damage die and worse traits than your mainhand.
If you attack with the shield first, you're instead attacking at -2/-2. Not bad, but it sacrifices the fighters attack (and crit) advantage. The best version would probably attacking with the shield first and then follow up with an agile main hand weapon. Puts your attacks at -2/+0.
I'm not even sure Double Slice on a Shield-Fighter is a great idea. Since your mainhand weapon will advance its proficiency faster for most of your adventuring career and the shield isn't agile, you'll basically making attacks at +0 and -4. That's only very slightly better than just doing +0 and -5 with your mainhand, but the shield will most likely have a smaller damage die and worse traits than your mainhand.
If you attack with the shield first, you're instead attacking at -2/-2. Not bad, but it sacrifices the fighters attack (and crit) advantage. The best version would probably attacking with the shield first and then follow up with an agile main hand weapon. Puts your attacks at -2/+0.
Feats like Dwarven Weapon Expertise can allow fighters to get their higher proficiency bonus in more than one group to eventually get around this.
Feats like Dwarven Weapon Expertise can allow fighters to get their higher proficiency bonus in more than one group to eventually get around this.I'm not even sure Double Slice on a Shield-Fighter is a great idea. Since your mainhand weapon will advance its proficiency faster for most of your adventuring career and the shield isn't agile, you'll basically making attacks at +0 and -4. That's only very slightly better than just doing +0 and -5 with your mainhand, but the shield will most likely have a smaller damage die and worse traits than your mainhand.
If you attack with the shield first, you're instead attacking at -2/-2. Not bad, but it sacrifices the fighters attack (and crit) advantage. The best version would probably attacking with the shield first and then follow up with an agile main hand weapon. Puts your attacks at -2/+0.
Admittedly, that softens the blow a bit, but there's still at least 8 levels at which you're only master in one weapon group.
Admittedly, that softens the blow a bit, but there's still at least 8 levels at which you're only master in one weapon group.Feats like Dwarven Weapon Expertise can allow fighters to get their higher proficiency bonus in more than one group to eventually get around this.I'm not even sure Double Slice on a Shield-Fighter is a great idea. Since your mainhand weapon will advance its proficiency faster for most of your adventuring career and the shield isn't agile, you'll basically making attacks at +0 and -4. That's only very slightly better than just doing +0 and -5 with your mainhand, but the shield will most likely have a smaller damage die and worse traits than your mainhand.
If you attack with the shield first, you're instead attacking at -2/-2. Not bad, but it sacrifices the fighters attack (and crit) advantage. The best version would probably attacking with the shield first and then follow up with an agile main hand weapon. Puts your attacks at -2/+0.
Shield bashing is better as a Ranger or Barbarian who don't have this problem with this feat.
The -4 is relative, based on the idea that one of your weapons isn't in the correct weapon group and therefore is behind on proficiency.
"correct weapon group"? You've lost me.
Fighters at level 5 gain master proficiency with a single weapon group that advances to legendary at 13 (while all other weapons advance to master at 13).
So, unless both your weapons are in the same weapon group, one of them will be swinging at a relative -2 compared to the other from levels 5-19 (or 5-13 with an ancestral expertise feat at 13).
Yeah, -2, not -4."correct weapon group"? You've lost me.Fighters at level 5 gain master proficiency with a single weapon group that advances to legendary at 13 (while all other weapons advance to master at 13).
So, unless both your weapons are in the same weapon group, one of them will be swinging at a relative -2 compared to the other from levels 5-19 (or 5-13 with an ancestral expertise feat at 13).
-2 Relative to your best proficiency PLUS -2 explicit for a non agile offhand weapon. So -4.
Fighters are expert in all weapons except advanced.
At levels 1-4, yes. Starting at level 5 they become master in ONE weapon group.
At level 13, they become master in all weapons and legendary in ONE weapon group.
So either your shield or your mainhand weapon will always lack beind from level 5 to 18. Unless your mainhand-weapon is also a shield or you use Ancestry proficiencies to shorten this time from 5-13 as Gortle suggested.
Fighters are expert in all weapons except advanced.At levels 1-4, yes. Starting at level 5 they become master in ONE weapon group.
At level 13, they become master in all weapons and legendary in ONE weapon group.
So either your shield or your mainhand weapon will always lack beind from level 5 to 18. Unless your mainhand-weapon is also a shield or you use Ancestry proficiencies to shorten this time from 5-13 as Gortle suggested.
The regular two weapon fighter gets around this by going long sword/short sword or war hammer/light hammer. But they would run into the problem if they crossed weapon groups say Battle Axe/Light Pick
Shield/Shield is possible but then you are giving up a weapon dice step.
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-2 Relative to your best proficiency PLUS -2 explicit for a non agile offhand weapon. So -4.Yeah, -2, not -4."correct weapon group"? You've lost me.Fighters at level 5 gain master proficiency with a single weapon group that advances to legendary at 13 (while all other weapons advance to master at 13).
So, unless both your weapons are in the same weapon group, one of them will be swinging at a relative -2 compared to the other from levels 5-19 (or 5-13 with an ancestral expertise feat at 13).
Unless you choose shield as your master group, in which case Double Slice essentially just loses its penalty?
Unless you choose shield as your master group, in which case Double Slice essentially just loses its penalty?-2 Relative to your best proficiency PLUS -2 explicit for a non agile offhand weapon. So -4.Yeah, -2, not -4."correct weapon group"? You've lost me.Fighters at level 5 gain master proficiency with a single weapon group that advances to legendary at 13 (while all other weapons advance to master at 13).
So, unless both your weapons are in the same weapon group, one of them will be swinging at a relative -2 compared to the other from levels 5-19 (or 5-13 with an ancestral expertise feat at 13).
Unless your mainhand is another shield, you'd attack with -2/-2. -2 main hand since you're not master in that weapon and -2 with the shield because it's not agile.
Double shield bashing remains a viable strategy it seems. It also lets you get the durability of a sturdy shield in one hand and the additional advantages of a special shield in the other, so that is neat.
Double shield bashing remains a viable strategy it seems. It also lets you get the durability of a sturdy shield in one hand and the additional advantages of a special shield in the other, so that is neat.
Not sure about that. Shield Bash isn't exactly a great weapon, having no traits and a low damage die.
Many special shields also only apply their bonus if you have them raised. And you need to rais the sturdy shield to block with it. Not sure you can raise two shields with one action.
You could raise the special shield with an action and rely on Reactive Shield for the sturdy shield, I guess. But that also means no Shield Block before level 8.
Double shield bashing remains a viable strategy it seems. It also lets you get the durability of a sturdy shield in one hand and the additional advantages of a special shield in the other, so that is neat.Not sure about that. Shield Bash isn't exactly a great weapon, having no traits and a low damage die.
Many special shields also only apply their bonus if you have them raised. And you need to rais the sturdy shield to block with it. Not sure you can raise two shields with one action.
You could raise the special shield with an action and rely on Reactive Shield for the sturdy shield, I guess. But that also means no Shield Block before level 8.
By shield bashing, I meant shield bossing or shield spiking. It would still be a damage dip I suppose.
I imagine you'd normally pick which shield would be better to raise turn to turn. And fighters can eventually pick up Paragon's Guard. Not until level 12, admittedly, but Shield Master wasn't until level 10 for most classes in PF1, wasn't it?
The build seems viable to me but not optimal. It trades damage for some increased defensive flexibility.
i am building a fighter with a shortsword as his main weapon so that when he uses double slice, it's 0/0
Except one of those attacks will be at -2 compared to the other one starting level 5 when you get master proficiency in one weapon group.
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Oh, I see. You guys are talking about optimizing. Nah, I'm not into that. I just want my character to be effective. Thanks for the help.
"Oh you guys are optimizing, no thanks, I just wanted help optimizing" XD
yes, but he gets the benefits of blocking with a shield and all other attacks except the double slice will be with the shortsword
That's fine. I'm not saying there's no benefit to this combat style. Just saying that his double slice won't be at 0/0 once he hits level 5.
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I mean, I literally said in my post the suggestion I was making wasn't optimal, so this seems like a really strange time to play the min maxer card.
yes, but he gets the benefits of blocking with a shield and all other attacks except the double slice will be with the shortsword
I found having a shield and shield block available to my 10 CON Fighter to be... very useful. But comes 5th level, I am torn about what weapon group to master. Swords would mean that my toon could use a bastard sword as the main hand weapon and would be able to chose between attacking twice at +0, -5 for 1d8 damage, or at +0, -4 for 1d8 and 1d6 with Double Slice, which would still mean damage gets added before applying resistances.
Plus, if the shield gets busted, just switch grip and go to town with a d12. The enemy may yet regret having broken my shield...
Also, my guy can use the Shield cantrip to help himself out. Depending on how things work out with the other PCs, maybe he decides to focus on polearms instead. Retraining is a thing after all.
But as long as you prefer to go shield + extra weapon, you will need to live with the fact that the extra +2 AC come at the price of damage potential.
I mean, I literally said in my post the suggestion I was making wasn't optimal, so this seems like a really strange time to play the min maxer card.Sorry, I see that word and I sort of shut myself out of the conversation.
We wish you all the best in coping with and overcoming this terrible condition ; )
I will say, I think I was the one who suggested double slice in the first place, forgetting about the Proficiency gap fighters have.