if 2e were to make a necromancer class what would you expect it to be like?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Gortle wrote:

I'd like to see the ability to create and raise and control a lot of undead. Obviously to be balanced they are going to have to be low level. But the limit of 4 in Create Undead is just too low.

Maybe the spell Bind Undead could be a cantrip avaliable to specialist necromancers only from level 10.

Consider the level 8 spell Horrid Wilting. It will do 55ish necromantic damage to everything within 500 feet.
Surely given the power level of this spell it wouldn't be too much to be able have a spell that creates 50 level 2 undead from a pile of bodies and give them a mission for a few days. Would it be anymore powerful?

A lot less powerful, due to proficiency. A Skeleton champion will need to roll a 17 or higher to target a low AC level 10 enemy. Throw them at a level 12 enemy (not uncommon for a level 10 PC to face) and they'll need a nat 20 before debuffs come into play.

Perhaps when the troop rules comes out in Bestiary 3, we might be able to see something like this.


I don't think it would work without a skeleton swarm or something of the like you can control. You only have three actions, so that's commanding three creatures at most, and any class feats/features that allow you to command more would mean your turns take too long.

I also don't think it's enough for a class on its own. I think additional spell and feat support for the necromancy wizard or clerics is the most likely (getting a Dirgesinger bard or something of the like would be neat too), with other possibilities of it being a class path/class archetype for something like the Summoner.


I would be interested in it as a class archetype of summoner, or maybe an archetype along the lines of Animal Tamer. For me, having a minion is the essential bit that I can't get out of an undead sorc or a wizard. You could probably make some kind of template to apply to any animal companion to turn it into an undead version.


Personally I would prefer a broader "get power from bad things" class, where the "other necromancer" could reside. I would go with something similar to the 5e wild magic sorcerer, where there is a certain amount of risk involved. So something like if you wanted to summon a horde of undead, you enhance the "conjure undead" spell, and roll the dice: if the roll comes up really good, you get your horde (and it obeys you), the roll comes out really bad, you get your horde, but it attacks everyone, and if you get in the middle, you get the same conjured undead that any other caster (except I am assuming primal) can get.

Evil just wants you to create a catastrophe that benefits Evil. Your survival, if you do, is accidental.


Gortle wrote:
Quote:

But what other options do you think are missing?

Besides a "you are an undead, and do not age or need to breathe" feat.

A lot of necromancers play like evocationists.

There are necro damage spells at every level, except 2 and 10. And the focus spell.

Quote:
I'd like to see the ability to create and raise and control a lot of undead. Obviously to be balanced they are going to have to be low level. But the limit of 4 in Create Undead is just too low.

Summon Undead is oddly missing.

Seems like it should be right there with Summon animal, and Summon Construct...

Quote:
Maybe the spell Bind Undead could be a cantrip available to specialist necromancers only from level 10.

Way too powerful.

Maybe if it's limited to 1 at a time. Or...

Skeletal Familiar: You gain a Skeleton Familiar. It's size is medium.

Quote:

Consider the level 8 spell Horrid Wilting. It will do 55ish necromantic damage to everything within 500 feet.

Surely given the power level of this spell it wouldn't be too much to be able have a spell that creates 50 level 2 undead from a pile of bodies and give them a mission for a few days. Would it be anymore powerful?

Power can be balanced. But who wants to sit around while you roll 100 attack rolls each turn? Who is going to keep track of each skeleton's HP?

That said. Summon Undead Horde would work.
Summon Undead Horde, level 5
You summon an Undead Hord. You can use 1 action to attempt to command the horde move in the direction you want. The Horde makes a Will save against your DC. On a failure, you can direct it's first Stride action. On a critical failure, you can direct both it's stride action. On a critical success, the horde will stride towards. Many would-be necromancers have paid the ultimate price for not being able to control the spell. You cannot dismiss this spell.
Heightened +1: The Hordes maximum and starting hit points by +50, and their DC, Saves, Checks, AC are increased by +1
Heightened 7: Increase the damage dice to d6
Heightened 9: Increase the damage dice to d8

Undead Hord Creature 9
Gargantuan (30', but only 5' tall) Undead Mindless Swarm
Perception +15; darkvision
Skills Athletics +18
Str +1, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -5, Wis -5, Cha -5
AC 23; Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +20
HP 200; Immunities precision, mindless; Resistances bludgeoning 10, piercing 10, slashing 10, evil 10;
Weaknesses area damage 10, splash damage 10, good 10. Every 10 minutes the horde is in the sunlight, they take 10 damage.
Speed 10 feet, climb 5 feet
Mindless Hunger: Unless otherwise commanded, the undead horde spends it's actions to mindlessly Stride towards the nearest living creatures, attempting to surround them. They prioritizing those of the lowest hit points.
Arms of the Dead: Countless claws, hands, and bones are reaching out to tearing apart any creature within range. For each 5' they move within the Hord's area each living creature takes 1d4 bludgeoning, 1d4 piercing damage, and 1d4 slashing damage. Also, the Hord's space is considered difficult terrain.
Fill the Ranks: When a living creature dies within the Hordes area, the Hord's increases it's current and maximum hit points by three times the creatures level (minimum 1). For every 50 hit points it gains, it's size increases by 5'. For every 50 hit points it loses, it size shrinks by 5'.
Grabbing Hands: (Free action): At the start of the Hoards turn, each living creature in the area or within 5' of it must make a DC 27 Fortitude Saving throw.
Success: pulled 5' toward the center of the swarm and triggers Arms of the Dead damage even if they did not move.
Failure: same as success, but also grabbed.
Critical Failure: same as success, but also restrained.

Quote:
Is there a ritual to suck life force out of a target and extend your life a year.

Seems like an easy enough one to add.


Mellored wrote:


That said. Summon Undead Horde would work.

Nice work. That sort of option gives me the tool to create the story I want to tell as a GM. But still makes it mechanically relevant to the PCs.

This is the sort of thing that would give us Necromancers that feel like the Necromancers of fiction.


Saedar wrote:

Different class paths.

Undead controller
Evoker-style necro nukes
Some ghosty stealth/possession stuff.
Fear-based battlefield control

All interesting concepts to explore more, and to get more specific support for in the game.

Posssession/Magic Jar is hard to do game wise. But it is part of the genre.

Some big Fear auras would be really nice. Is there a spell that gives Frightful Presence?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
This is the sort of thing that would give us Necromancers that feel like the Necromancers of fiction.

Do you have a specific fiction source in mind?


Mellored wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Quote:

But what other options do you think are missing?

Besides a "you are an undead, and do not age or need to breathe" feat.

A lot of necromancers play like evocationists.

There are necro damage spells at every level, except 2 and 10. And the focus spell.

Quote:
I'd like to see the ability to create and raise and control a lot of undead. Obviously to be balanced they are going to have to be low level. But the limit of 4 in Create Undead is just too low.

Summon Undead is oddly missing.

Seems like it should be right there with Summon animal, and Summon Construct...

Quote:
Maybe the spell Bind Undead could be a cantrip available to specialist necromancers only from level 10.

Way too powerful.

Maybe if it's limited to 1 at a time. Or...

Skeletal Familiar: You gain a Skeleton Familiar. It's size is medium.

Quote:

Consider the level 8 spell Horrid Wilting. It will do 55ish necromantic damage to everything within 500 feet.

Surely given the power level of this spell it wouldn't be too much to be able have a spell that creates 50 level 2 undead from a pile of bodies and give them a mission for a few days. Would it be anymore powerful?

Power can be balanced. But who wants to sit around while you roll 100 attack rolls each turn? Who is going to keep track of each skeleton's HP?

That said. Summon Undead Horde would work.
Summon Undead Horde, level 5
You summon an Undead Hord. You can use 1 action to attempt to command the horde move in the direction you want. The Horde makes a Will save against your DC. On a failure, you can direct it's first Stride action. On a critical failure, you can direct both it's stride action. On a critical success, the horde will stride towards. Many would-be necromancers have paid the ultimate price for not being able to control the spell. You cannot dismiss this spell.
Heightened +1: The Hordes maximum and starting hit points by +50, and their DC,...

I already said that, but Paizo confirmed at Paizocon that the APG is going to incloud the spell "Animate Dead". According to Logan, the spell is similar to the summon spells.


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Rushniyamat wrote:
I already said that, but Paizo confirmed at Paizocon that the APG is going to incloud the spell "Animate Dead". According to Logan, the spell is similar to the summon spells.

Then all we need is an undead horde monster or 3. Which you can then summon.

Also. A group of zombie should be called a shamble.


Mellored wrote:
Rushniyamat wrote:
I already said that, but Paizo confirmed at Paizocon that the APG is going to incloud the spell "Animate Dead". According to Logan, the spell is similar to the summon spells.

Then all we need is an undead horde monster or 3. Which you can then summon.

Also. A group of zombie should be called a shamble.

Might come with Bestiary 3

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