I think that's a common trend among some of the abilities.
Most of them are "use this whenever I can" at the moment, and that's fine in some cases (rangers are probably using Hunted Shot/Twin Takedown every turn), but there should be a lot more niche options.
Right now, because everything is in the "use this all the time" category, the only thing that's limiting them is the fact that you can only get so many.
Dive For Cover/Sniper's Step are good examples of these good niche type feats, I just wish there were more of them, particularly for the reactions.
We don't want them to feel Reaction starved, we want them to feel like they have a reaction for a lot of different scenarios should they arise.
Also, I remember there was a huge aversion to Reactions because people felt like it was too close to the Swashbuckler (AnimatedPaper mentioned it at least), so the heavy lean on Reactions is a bit surprising to me.
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I guess what I think is missing at the moment is a "playstyle formula" of sorts.
Basically a Swashbuckler works like this:
1. I need Panache to be competitive damage-wise
2. I use actions to gain Panache
3. I can hold Panache for bonus damage or spend Panache to use a Finisher for 2d6 bonus damage
4. If spend, start over at step 1, if don't spend repeat step 3.
Now the Swashbuckler did a really cool thing in that everyone has a global option in Step 2, but also everyone has a personalized Class Path option that also triggers Step 2.
The "how" of the Trigger heavily governs their "playstyle formula".
Right now, the "playstyle formula" for this draft seems to work like this:
1. I need Grit to use my best actions
2. I have to use specific actions that trigger Grit (often Feats or the innate action of Drifter's Gambit/Lightning Draw)
3. I can hold Grit, but there's no real benefit to doing so, so I pretty much want to spend Grit as soon as I get it in hopes that I can get more Grit via one of my other actions
4. Start over at step 1.
This to me, and maybe it's a bit harsh, is a rather boring rotation of events because there's no variability in it really at all. You're literally treadmilling your abilities so that you can get access to your actions.
I think the formula can potentially stay in some form, but it feels very "flat" as a playstyle to me. It also probably won't feel very "fun" in its current form, since you're basically constantly trying to buy back access to abilities that you want, but without any real choice in the matter, so when you do get Grit you almost feel like you're finally being "enabled" and when your Grit attacks fail it's really punishing feeling because you just spent actions getting Grit so you could use your special actions and then your special action didn't work, so you have to go back to the beginning to get Grit.
Now you might say "Finishers are sorta the same thing, what's the big deal?" and to that I'd remind that because Panache has a default buff (a really good one too) it creates a "holding panache and NOT using a finisher is actually not a horrible idea". There is opportunity cost with the choice, so the player knows that if they try for a Finisher, it comes with "big pay off" if they succeed but essentially reseting panache if they fail.
The Drifter doesn't really have that option. Since most of their really good actions require Grit and a lot of the other actions generate Grit, the formula is very stale. You basically always want to spend Grit as soon as you get it, provided you have a valid option of using Grit that turn, and then you go back to recycling Grit.
This Class Feat/Ability setup is a "closed system" of sorts, the only things that generate Grit are Drifter abilities, and the only thing Grit enables is Drifter abilities.
Because Drifter is gaiting ability usage, there should probably be more parts of the Class that function outside of the Class itself (whether that be Skills or particular global actions is another matter).
This is part of why I liked having the interaction with initiative, delay, and criticals. Those three things all seem to fit the themes of the Class while being agnostic of the Class itself.
This closed system loop for Drifter actually limits agency where the player feels consistently drawn to the same repeated turns regardless of circumstances of robbing peter to pay paul (Grit buy back and spending).
Swashbuckler offers the "petition the GM for something cool" and the "holding panache isn't a horrible play", which enables player agency.
I'd like to see some agency go back to the player for this Drifter design too.
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I think the way to go might be to make Flashing Parry/Counter more similar to the TWF Parry feats. I mean right now if you were melee why wouldn't you want to use Flashing Counter every time you can, unless you were about to die? Free extra attack why your attacked in melee? Yes please. Wait you mean I can also make the target miss? Oh and there a feat where I get additional reactions and +2 to attack with reactions?
That's just too good. It might be smoother to have Flashing Parry as the retort it is now. A Parry Stance which is no retort but + AC while inside, and Flashing Counter trigger on a crit failure against you with the option to spend Grit and counter as it is now.
That's more inline with current melee characters, Gunslinger as ranged should be fine.
While its true that flashing counter is much better than the existing dueling riposte/twin riposte, that was an intentional choice because those two feats are, frankly, terrible. Compared to other reactions that allow for an attack like AOO and paladin reactions, their trigger will almost never come up, AND you have to have used dueling/twin parry the turn before. So I designed flashing counter in line with AOO and friends rather than dueling riposte.
This to me, and maybe it's a bit harsh, is a rather boring rotation of events because there's no variability in it really at all. You're literally treadmilling your abilities so that you can get access to your actions.
That's a good point, so much so that I think its probably worth making potentially major changes to account for it.
Personally, I like being focused on reactions because it has an inherent interactivity since you have to decide which enemy attack/ability to use your reaction on (and the argument that it's stepping on swash's toes is kinda moot since they've apparently been removed from the final version). So I'm going to instead try to adjust the way Grit is used, rather than how its gained.
Having grit have a passive bonus like panache is definitely a good idea, but in addition to that I have another idea that might help: having spending grit be optional. Basically, grit actions would have a base version that you can use as long as you have grit but which doesn't consume it, and then they would have an additional effect if you choose to spend grit when you use the action. This allows more player agency and choice in deciding whether to keep grit for the passive buff and to potentially use >1 grit action in your turn, or whether to spend it to gain the additional effect.
I can probably also cut down on the number of class feats that are grit actions; there's probably a good number of them that could stand to just be flourishes instead.
Idea; would having the ability to have more than 1 grit at once combined with variable grit abilities be worth exploring? You could, for example, have an ability that let you spend 0, 1 or 2 grit for increasingly powerful benefits (in this hypothetical, grit should probably cap out at 3).
This would be a big departure from your current design so I wouldn't say it's the best way forward, necessarily. But I think examining some of the merits of something like that could be worthwhile. Holding onto panache is good since it comes with a passive benefit, so using it is a tradeoff. Similarly, holding onto grit might be good for a different reason.
Edit: random notes;
-Deft Maneuver should probably be step up to three times to avoid awkwardness.
-I don't love the Warrior-Poet feat. It's flavorful, but feels a lot more like a skill feat than a full class feat to me.
-I think blood spray is a really cool and simple feat
I want to ask a question, and maybe that will lead us to answers on how to expand the Class concept into more than just a "bundle of cool/thematic feats".
Now I know these might seem obvious questions, and some of them we've answer sorta in various other threads and such. But from a mechanical point of view, we want to create support for these types of things. And we want to isolate the commonalities across all the Class Paths, regardless of what they chose:
Generally, I see Drifter's as being anti-combat in terms of thematics. The Gunslinger that just wants to drink his beer at the corner of the bar, the Ronin who is sipping tea while enjoying peace and quiet, the Outlaw who just wants to get the job overwith. I see them often as not pursuing combat directly, but then combat sort of explodes into their area.
Basically, they are the "gunpowder" and things around them are almost compelled to set them off in a sense. Whether that be related to targeting them by their nature (they aren't from around there) or being from a social system that fosters that (horse thief, abandoned house sigil, etc.)
While they aren't direct seekers of action, they are no slouch to when it breaks out, and in fact return that.
Although I'm not the hugest fan of Tom Cruise's Jack Reacher, the line "Remember, you wanted this" comes to mind.
Generally, there opening is like an explosion, because the hope is that if they demonstrate why they are not to be trifled within they can resume being "peaceful" once more.
They also feel compelled to prevent the violence in general, advising others to avoid it, intimidating the opponent to back down, etc.
So their opening is also a means to try to get enemies to flee as well as setting themselves up for success.
The two most iconic ways to react is a show of strength (an attack or offensive action) or if there is a heavy disadvantage, a means to protect themselves and outlast opponents by picking them off.
Drifter's are KEEN on the matters of a fight, they know exactly how to win, exactly who to take down to progress to that phase, and often work their way into advantageous positions over the course of a fight.
To me, a Drifter is not as Flashy as a Swashbuckler, but they are in a sense impressive.
Basically, the moves they make aren't "showy" in nature, but they are 100% effective.
When I think of how a Drifter fights, it comes down to the same thing across all types of Drifters: "The way a Drifter chooses to Fight directly correlates to their opponent/environment"
Now you might say "don't all classes" fight that way?
And the answer is sort of, but I think Drifter's do so more than anyone else. The way a Drifter approaches a bunch of enemies varies on a lot of fronts, typically with the level of force/response corresponding to how threatening the opponent is.
Basically, the tougher the situation, the more the Drifter's "Grit" comes through. The moments that are weaker, almost seem trivial because of how well they can read their opponents, the room, the situation, the environment, and their own resources.
When it comes to situational awareness, that is where they shine the most. An unprepared Drifter is a dead one.
When I think of things that reinforce the "Drifter" feel in the course of a combat, I think of things like felling a particularly impressive opponent, flipping a table of cards to create cover and opening fire, cleverly targeting a nearby bottle of liquor with a shot to cause a fire to start, staring coldly until someone flinches, etc.
Pivotal successful moments when an opponent is affected by something the Gunslinger did to their detriment as opposed to the Drifter's gain (almost the opposite of a Swashbuckler, where panache makes them stronger, Grit almost makes enemies "weaker" in a sense).
Critical attacks, intimidation, perfectly timed movements/actions, clever tricks, these are used to create scenarios where they can succeed.
Good examples of this are Full Metal Jacket (two enemies close and giving cover), Sniper's Step, Dive for Cover, Called Shot, Dirty Trick, etc.
Those are all targeted to the opponent/environment and the Drifter takes advantage of those circumstances in a way others do not.
Reading opponents and situations better than anyone else.
That's what I keep coming back to.
This one is a little harder for me to nail down specifically, and maybe that's a good thing.
Ultimately the player can decide what kind of Drifter they are off the field but some common things I can see are:
- Helping who they can
- Just trying to find happiness/peace somewhere
- Cutting loose to put their otherwise darting mind at ease
To me, they should be trying to be as efficient as possible always. Two birds, one stone is practically a must.
As for what they seldom do, that's hard for me to say.
I guess the one that comes to mind is when they fail, they don't completely fail. There's a sort of "denial" they give to failure that I think is really prevalent in their acts.
They succeed because they have to, and they have contingencies for failure so that when they do fail, they had already accounted for it.
I've sorta touched on what I think here already, but basically they create defense by exploiting opponents and situations.
They also have an air of "relatively mobile" but consistently finding ways to avoid attacks via cover, careful positioning, out maneuvering, etc.
Basically, they deny attacks directly. That is their defense.
These are all of course IMO, but they're just general concepts about the way a Drifter appears in popular media.
Some mechanics that I think jumped out at me while reading this are the following:
- Initiative
- Intimidation
- Delay
- Perception
- Critical Hits
- Take Cover
- Reactions
Hopefully, I haven't gone totally off the rails here and people see where I'm coming from on some of this stuff.
EDIT: On this note, I do want to point out that Take Cover is potentially an Action worth exploring here:
Ronin: "When you move at least half your speed, you also use the Take Cover action" or "When you make at least one successful Strike during a turn you may Take Cover as if you had cover"
Outlaw: "You may use the Take Cover action against an opponent with the Flat-footed or Dazzled condition as if you had access to Cover."
Gunslinger: "Whenever you use the Take Cover action, you may use an Interact action to reload as part of that action."
Just throwing out a new idea.
What if holding Grit prevented Critical Failures on certain rolls?
That would thematically tie in their ability to "shrug off" certain effects or govern more successful outcomes on average.
Not necessarily to attack rolls or saves, and maybe it could vary by Class Path (or maybe they could add an additional type of check or action they don't Critically Fail on).
Idea; would having the ability to have more than 1 grit at once combined with variable grit abilities be worth exploring? You could, for example, have an ability that let you spend 0, 1 or 2 grit for increasingly powerful benefits (in this hypothetical, grit should probably cap out at 3).
This would be a big departure from your current design so I wouldn't say it's the best way forward, necessarily. But I think examining some of the merits of something like that could be worthwhile. Holding onto panache is good since it comes with a passive benefit, so using it is a tradeoff. Similarly, holding onto grit might be good for a different reason.
Edit: random notes;
-Deft Maneuver should probably be step up to three times to avoid awkwardness.
-I don't love the Warrior-Poet feat. It's flavorful, but feels a lot more like a skill feat than a full class feat to me.
-I think blood spray is a really cool and simple feat
I kinda like Grit as a binary state, but that's me.
And I would make sure you're looking at Draft 2 Henro, since you said "step up to 3 times" for Deft Manuever, I assume you're looking at first draft since it was nerfed to 2 steps in version 2.
Grit
When you use your skills to overwhelm a foe, it sharpens
your focus and resolves, allowing you to achieve incredible
feats. Reactions with the Retort trait allow you to gain Grit,
typically by succeeding on an attack roll or saving throw as
part of the reaction. You can normally never have more than
one Grit. You can also gain Grit as part of the "Steel Your Mind" activity.
While you have Grit, you reduce damage taken from physical attacks by your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) and treat Critical Failures on Will Saves as Failures instead. You also treat Critical Failures on the skill associated with your Drifter path as Failures while you have Grit.
You can take powerful actions with the Grit trait while you have Grit, and when you do, you lose Grit.
Gunslinger: You are trained in Intimidation or Stealth. While you have Grit, you treat Critical Failures on the chosen skill as Failures.
Ronin: You are trained in either Athletics or Acrobatics. While you have Grit, you treat Critical Failures on the chosen skill as Failures.
Outlaw: You are trained in either Deception or Thievery. While you have Grit, you treat Critical Failures on the chosen skill as Failures.
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Steel Your Mind
[concentrate][exploration]
Requirements You are a Drifter and you do not have Grit.
"You regain your composure as part of your Drifter training, whether from closing your eyes, taking a breath, or relaxing briefly. You can spend 10 minutes to reclaim your Grit."
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Not totally in love with the Class path failure choices (maybe not even necessary), but I feel like maybe this could be worked with?
Might need another pass for balance, I like the Damage reduction based on WIS mod (and it incentivizes WIS for both Perception and this ability across the theme).
Thoughts?
EDIT: Okay expanded this a bit. Added basically out of combat Grit in a way which I think is thematically appropriate (why wouldn't Grit be an "always" thing), and allows them to start combat with Grit (which I think since they are "always ready" for a Fight, makes thematic sense.
This opens them up to having the vibe in more than just combat and also gives them a neat little activity they can be doing that makes them a bit of a "loaner" of sorts.
Ah, yes you're right. I was looking at version 1.
I just wanted to say that this is an awesome idea and the work you've put into it is inspiring.
A few posts back, Midnightoker mentioned that Drifters might need some AC help and up above, he compares the Swashbuckler's "playstyle formula" to the Drifter's current "playstyle formula", noting that Swashbucklers get a mechanical benefit for holding on to panache but Drifters don't have a mechanical benefit for holding on to grit.
I agree with Midnightoker that if holding on to grit provided a mechanical benefit, it provides more player agency in how and when to spend grit given the situation they find themselves in, such that one encounter's grit expenditure might look very different from another encounter's.
So with this in mind, what if we allow a +1 status bonus to AC for holding on to grit and perhaps it scales up to +2 when the Drifter is expert in the armor they are wearing, and +3 when they are master? Thematically, their grit is literally making them tougher.
Alternatively, that +1/+2/+3 scaling bonus can be put into AC or any one of their saves (Drifter's choice). The choice is then "locked" in until they spend the grit their holding. When they earn grit again and decide to hold on to it, they choose anew between AC/Fort/Ref/Will.
EDIT: if +3 is too OP (which I suspect it is), instead of tying this to AS or Save proficiencies (and the book keeping that might involve), can tie it to class DC so it's +1 while they're trained in Drifter class DC and +2 when they're expert in Drifter class DC
On the Focus Spell piece, here is my reasoning behind preferring the non-focus spell implementation (and if we're being totally transparent, not really wanting it in the concept):
- Drifter is by its nature and themes a strictly martial Class. All of their abilities to survive/act are centered snuggly in their sheer will, perseverance, and patience. That is not magical.
- Focus spells are the "easy" way to give powerful abilities, but they do not create playstyle formulas in the same way as the "binary system" (whatever you wanna call Panache systems). Because you can only use them once or twice per combat, they are inherently limited, where as a Grit system can be active consistently (and in the rework above I mention, even outside of combat). They enable actions that concepts should be able to take, but they do not in themselves create changes to the overall chasis of a Class (Monks are monks with or without Focus spells, Rangers and Champions same story)
- It is way too close to the Ranger if you add Focus spells IMO since Focus Spells are coming for the Ranger in APG and if we're being honest there are a LOT of themes of the current PF2 Ranger coming through already (though I still have the "ranger is wilderness warrior" mentality from 3.5-PF1, which honestly is only KINDA the case in PF2).
So in short, Focus Spells are the "easy way out" because they don't create a playstyle formula (too infrequent and unintegrated). And without a playstyle formula that's unique, they will find it hard to differentiate themselves from Fighters/Rangers/Rogues.
A Focus Spell system to me would be something that could be done. As an Archetype though, not a Class.
So while I agree "taking a step back" to evaluate how we really cultivate these themes with a fluent set of mechanics, I don't think Focus Spells are the way to go (And personally, if others feel that it is, I'll probably be participating a lot less just because that type of implementation I find a lot less interesting).
As another strictly martial class like the Swashbuckler, I'd like to see it be able to create another really cool "binary system" like Panache that fosters a cool "playstyle formula".
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To me, grit currently feels very, very similar to Panache, which is why I think being able to keep more than one grit might be worth exploring. Especially if all grit abilities force you to use all grit you have in your pool.
Many martial "headliner abilities" have some kind of "tension", or "question" built into them, which I think(?) is what both I and Midnightoker are currently missing. For example, hunt prey often has you consider whether it's better to switch your hunted target to something more pressing (thereby wasting an action), or to keep hunting the same thing. Barbarians are pretty straightforward, but even they have to decide when in the fight they are going to go into rage - raging turn 1 is usually a poor idea unless you can also attack something.
If all grit is is get grit, spend grit I feel as though it lacks a bit of that tension (though you're still having to answer how you're getting and spending your grit). Having grit grant a passive buff is a cool idea - though I feel like there's a lot of space to try something that isn't the same solution swashbuckler uses to create tension in order to differentiate the class. Grit pool accomplishes the same thing (at least seemingly) by having you consider if you use the grit point now, or save it for a more powerful ability.
Edit: just as an example of how this could actually work, the ability Deft Maneuver could be "Step, then take an additional step for each Grit in your pool."
The stacking Grit is similar to how the investigators study suspect scaling was pitched by the community during the Playtest in a way, basically treating inspiration that way but idk that inspiration made a direct conversion (maybe it did but Playtest it didn’t have it and I haven’t heard any mention of it in the teasers).
Perhaps that could be revisited, it had some mustard.
Basically investigators were suggested to gain inspiration as they succeed on study suspect checks, because it was a rather taxing ability and they lacked a lot of combat prowess, where the bonus would get better as you succeed on checks up to a cap.
I will say the thing that troubles me on that is a +3 bonus is huge. It would need to be really difficult to get to the +3 to be balanced and there would need to be enough incentive to give up a consistent +3.
It would need to be really unlikely I guess is what I’m saying, and would have to be temporary. Maybe you lose a grit at the end of your turn but you could theoretically trigger grit twice per turn so it’s like a constantly Ebbing and flowing resource but then I think honestly the ability don’t need to be better than standard abilities. The powerful part about Grit would be grit and not the actions, the actions simply enable their ebbing and flowing values. That would definitely make them much different than Swashbuckler, which is sort of the opposite.
It does encourage them to gain grit the easiest way possible, so grit granting actions would need be hard to grant grit or require clever play so they actively pursue the most rewarding option.
Aka having an attack miss by diving for cover or hitting both targets with full metal jacket.
It might encourage the thematic actions more, but strict number increases are always dangerous for the math.
I'm unsure of what you mean by +3 bonus? It's possible I'm missing something vital - please elaborate.
I'm unsure of what you mean by +3 bonus? It's possible I'm missing something vital - please elaborate.
Apologies, I had assumed something akin to the following:
Grit grants an incremental bonus of some kind (+1/2/3) up to a cap.
If you mean that strictly Grit only enhances Grit using abilities, but also has a "passive bonus" incentive, it would be difficult to ever beat the passive bonus (unless it was to something inconsequential).
So the Grit level, so to speak, would either have to be entirely abstracted to abilities or actually provide a numerical bonus (or cascading actions of some kind).
Now if you're saying that a Drifter has two types of Feats/Abilities, those that passively use Grit and those that actively use Grit (consuming it), that might work, but then Grit would HAVE to be gained somewhere outside of the "ability loop" to prevent the staleness issue I discuss above.
I still think the main thing that has to happen for Grit right now is some "global" interaction with some agnostic part of the game.
Some part of Grit needs to function as a portion of something that is not a Drifter ability specifically. There needs to be a reason to attain (if you choose to make the Grit only enhance abilities of the Drifter) or want (if you choose to have Grit be triggered by the abilities) Grit.
Right now, Grit is attained and spent by Drifter abilities. That is a closed loop treadmill problem that probably should be a priority to fix.
I personally still like the idea of they can't Critically Fail Will Saves and enemies cannot Critically Succeed against their Will DC while they have Grit for the following reasons:
- A decent buff but not overpowered, it basically still opens them to failures (which are rough) but also means they never take the worst of it when they have Grit
- It provides a strong incentive to hold Grit against higher level enemies because higher level enemies will have higher DCs and thus make it far more likely to Critically Fail
- It provides strong incentives to spend actions on Grit to "clear fodder" because you are less at risk of Failing a save.
- Thematically appropriate
Now I will say, the interaction with the Class path should probably be something active for benefits of Grit, a conditional AC bonus
I really like Take Cover for this action because Take Cover is inherently:
- Situationally aware based thing
- A good global action that all images of a Drifter I can imagine take in some form IMO
- A solid defensive action that would help them with their lower armor proficiencies, lack of shield block, or any other mitigating defense
I should have been more clear in that case - my suggestion should be viewed as an alternative to giving grit a passive bonus - or if grit was to also have a passive bonus, make that a static bonus that doesn't increase with the amount of grit in your pool. The main benefit of grit hoarding would be releasing it in a powerful ability, not keeping it forever.
Then I’m confused how having multiple grits helps? Does multiple grit only affect the executing ability for Grit then?
That could work, where the more Grit you have charged the stronger the ability.
It’s reminiscent of the oracle in a sense and I’m not sure up to three is good as a base number. Seems tougher to balance since each ability has to be regulated by the cost of the point vs other ability point costs, aka is a step worth a point over an extra attack in the case of a deft maneuver vs something else.
So I've got a player interested in playing this! We were curious, Cozzy, if you had any further development planned, or changes to the level 1 ability?
Then I’m confused how having multiple grits helps? Does multiple grit only affect the executing ability for Grit then?
Oh! Could have sworn I replied to this...
Yes, that was the thought - having more grit would boost up your grit executing abilities. Getting some sort of static bonus from grit isn't a bad idea, but it's already what ol' swashie does so I thought it might be worth examining a different direction, maybe.