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There's been an idea going around the forums for a couple weeks of a Drifter class which combines the fantasy of gunslingers, samurai movies, and other themes into a single grit-based class. I found this idea pretty inspiring, so I decided to try my hand at putting it together as a sort of reverse-playtest-swashbuckler that uses special reactions to gain grit, then spends it to use various special attacks.
Only the first 10 levels so far because feats take forever to right, and I think the balance of some of the feats might be a little on the high end at the moment, but overall I'm happy enough with it to look for feedback.
Also, I decided to take the path of least resistance on guns and just make them essentially advanced-weapon crossbows instead of something fancier, since they aren't realllly the focus of the class.
The full class is here, thanks for taking a look!
My first thought is that Paizo dropped the retort reactions, because they clogged things up. Thats a strong possibility here. Secondth, Lightning Draw is way too strong. Being able to strike as soon as initiative is rolled seems way out of the ballpark for a 1st level ability. Just drawing would probably be a reasonable ability though.
Lots of great stuff here. The Path's I think are on point.
Lighting Draw - Great Concept, but it's a reaction on initiative (these have been errata'd to free actions so they can coincide with initiative) and it allows them to attack out of turn, which is a bit weird (especially if their initiative is lower than several people they just start with a free attack.
Grit - No duration on Grit that I can see, which means that since they get this every initiative they always have Grit. While they should be able to trigger it reliably, not sure "always" is a good idea.
Gunslinger - Pretty standard stuff, solid.
Deadeye - Actually really love this because it the double attack penalty for a single action at upped weapon damage is a really cool way to give them action economy while allowing them to be deadly with a gun. Solid.
Ronin - Excellent interaction with Lightning Draw, love the swap to allow Stride/Step. A Class Feat that opens this movement up to other types (Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth) offers a lot of creative ways to define the path. Really cool interaction.
Whirling Blades - This is just Double Strike but with a single blade and it's way too strong for a two-handed melee weapon. If you're going to do this, probably want to do the same as Double Strike (-2 if weapon is not agile).
Mercenary - Nice job again on the interaction with Lightning Draw.
Dirty Trick - Two action minimum on this. It's really good.
Steely Gaze - Wow really flattered <3
Flashing Parry - I like this, but I also feel like the weapon should have the Parry trait. That does seem to discount the traditional Katana, so I can see why it's not there. It's more or less the same power as raising a shield, so perhaps this should just be that but you can do it when wielding a weapon in two hands? Maybe it's fine as is.
You're Next - Apt choice
Deft Maneuver - Seems really strong, and it might be easier to just say "If you move half your speed when you Stride, you do not trigger reactions."
Warrior Poet - I'm all for flavor, but this really needs something to merit being a Class Feat. Starting Expert in a skill to me sort of breaks the consistency of the game IMO. There's something here in concept, just not in love with expert skills at level 1 as a bonus.
Fan the Hammer - Actually love this, but it's hard to say how good it is without 1 knowing how much damage guns will do, and 2 how high the reload is. I would have said this could be reduced to 2 actions, but those two would probably need to be considered.
Combat Grab - Nice choice
Take Aim - Nice
Blood Spray - Love this. Seems on the strong side, and it would get used most turns you succeeded on an attack because a 1 to 1 action trade is pretty valuable (second attack lands, this is basically guaranteed best use of a third action). Probably needs a save on it for the Class DC, but that opens up Critical Success having a better outcome.
Mobility - Great choice again
Battle Assessment - This is Recall Knowledge but more structured. Not sure it deserves a feat on its own, probably could be expanded though. Perhaps enhancing the use of Recall Knowledge is more thematic (and that helps lean into the "Monster Hunter" theme too)
Will try to go through the rest later, but wow did you put in a lot of work, and I think there's some solid ideas here for sure!
Okay back for more
Duelist Challenge - something here but it’s weird. Because it’s not Demoralize, it can stack with Demoralize, but you also have to use it every turn and can spam it and you can switch it every turn. Something here but probably better to use Demoralize and build from there.
Dive for Cover - bonus is a bit too big IMO. Maybe allow the take cover action as a reaction and if there’s cover within 5ft (similar to snipers step) you avoid the prone condition and can step for free.
Flash Counter - my only problem with this is it’s melee only and it really shouldn’t be. Ask Han Solo.
Quick Reversal - odd choice to put here... and Running Reload deserves the spot way more IMO
Killing Strike - definitely nice, similar to sudden charge.
Called Shot - nice. Might need the open trait, seems like it should be once per round.
Snipers Step - love this. Maybe expert stealth though and a slightly different name (pistol users will love this too)
Trackless Step - nice
Coiled Spring Stance - needs stance trait
Snapshot - nice
Blindfight - nice
Full Metal Jacket - penetrating shot still in the description but it’s already good on its own since it avoids map and costs one bullet. Think the end part about hitting more people is probably not needed, but it’s probably fine for 10th Level. Might just change it to some form of “adjacent” instead of the lesser cover requirement and then just state “lesser cover provided by either creature does not apply to this attack”
Reaper stance - needs stance trait but also seems too much action hogging. Might be better to limit it by total movement instead of cumulative minus 2, since I don’t know that penalty stacking really has that kinda precedent anywhere else. Besides that’ll just lead to Johnny PC running his ac so far into the ground he guaranteed could be crit by a goblin. “May continue to move and make attacks but their total movement cannot exceed twice their speed.” Or something to that effect
Terrifying howl - surprisingly like this on them. Nice choice.
Untraceable - nice
Nodachi - nice, probably fine as is.
Single shot pistol - not bad
Revolver - too good. Needs to be 1d6 even with the high reload. I also think you need to consider building in reload help, since reload 3 effectively means no turn outside of reactions. They either need to feel empowered with reactions, or additions like running reload are needed.
Rifles - should be hands 1+ IMO, really helps the reload situation and opens opportunities for feats there.
Overall really solid work. Bravo!
Appreciate all the feedback so far! I'm probably going to hold off on making changes until replies here tail off in a day or two, but I wanted to reply to some specific comments that jumped out at me:
My first thought is that Paizo dropped the retort reactions, because they clogged things up. Thats a strong possibility here. Secondth, Lightning Draw is way too strong. Being able to strike as soon as initiative is rolled seems way out of the ballpark for a 1st level ability. Just drawing would probably be a reasonable ability though.
I agree that retorts clogged up the swashbuckler, because they were weirdly tacked on to the main thing of the finisher actions; here, they're part of the main economy of the class. Re: Lightning Draw, just drawing on initiative was my initial idea, but imo making an attack is much more thematic, and this is just Quick Draw (a second level feat) once a combat so it doesn't seem too bad, especially since I nixed the first-level class feat to account for Lightning Draw's strength.
Grit - No duration on Grit that I can see, which means that since they get this every initiative they always have Grit. While they should be able to trigger it reliably, not sure "always" is a good idea.
Grit is supposed to go away whenever you use a Grit action, I forgot to include that clause in the rules--good catch!
This is Recall Knowledge but more structured. Not sure it deserves a feat on its own, probably could be expanded though. Perhaps enhancing the use of Recall Knowledge is more thematic (and that helps lean into the "Monster Hunter" theme too)
This is straight up an existing rogue feat, so take it up with Paizo :P
Full Metal Jacket - penetrating shot still in the description but it’s already good on its own since it avoids map and costs one bullet. Think the end part about hitting more people is probably not needed, but it’s probably fine for 10th Level. Might just change it to some form of “adjacent” instead of the lesser cover requirement and then just state “lesser cover provided by either creature does not apply to this attack”
I agree the wording here is kinda awkward because I based it on the phrasing in Penetrating Shot, probably worth my taking a second pass at. I wanted to give an extra thematic ribbon over penetrating shot since its a grit ability, and the part about hitting more targets on lethal damage a la cleave seemed like a good choice bc it's really cool if you can pull it off, but it'll almost never actually happen because 3+ enemies will so rarely be in a straight line.
oh one I forgot--
Flashing Parry - I like this, but I also feel like the weapon should have the Parry trait. That does seem to discount the traditional Katana, so I can see why it's not there. It's more or less the same power as raising a shield, so perhaps this should just be that but you can do it when wielding a weapon in two hands? Maybe it's fine as is.
This is just the rogue feat Nimble Dodge (which I've heard called pretty weak by-and-large) reflavored to allow for a more logical for flash counter, so I think its probably fine balance-wise. Flavor-wise, yeah I left out the parry trait so you could do it with a katana/nodachi/whatever.
This looks very promising thus far. One suggestion I would make for when you cover 11-20: maybe let the Drifter get to Legendary in a single weapon group of choice. That would let them stand out from other martial classes without stepping on the fighter's toes.
Only real feedback I have is regarding Deadeye. It is pretty clearly a ranged power attack, so I'm curious why you gave it only 1 action and it doesn't have the flourish trait. I doubt it would be spammed in actual play, but even so, I think it might be better as two actions to start, and introduce a feat reducing it to one action.
Some stances are missing the "Stance" tag, but I assume that's just an editing error.
Overall, I really like what you've done with this.
A lot of nice ideas in here
I will echo that Lightning Draw is far far too strong. Especially as there are further riders on it such as with Mercenary and the trigger is basically “every combat”
Connected to this Grit is far too easy to get compared to playtest swashbuckler. They can only get it when certain skills are rolled for initiative . This class gets Grit every initiative roll. And then can regain it far more easily - reactions are far easier to pull off than very specific skill actions
Really great. I'd want to sit and think more, but it's a great first impression, I understand the trope you want, and get cool abilities to play that trope, something that can be very hard to do when homebrewing a class. (I appreciate the "A Note on Film and Appropriation:" btw, good addition).
I agree that retorts clogged up the swashbuckler, because they were weirdly tacked on to the main thing of the finisher actions; here, they're part of the main economy of the class. Re: Lightning Draw, just drawing on initiative was my initial idea, but imo making an attack is much more thematic, and this is just Quick Draw (a second level feat) once a combat so it doesn't seem too bad, especially since I nixed the first-level class feat to account for Lightning Draw's strength.
I would argue that your Class Paths, which are honestly really well done, actually encourage the attack enough on their own.
So the initiative just enables them to take advantage of the class path attack early.
That kind of advantage is really strong I think. Deadly Shot/Whirling Blades/Dirty Trick all have very high "turn opener" incentives (especially with Ronin getting a free stride).
That's why I think it could be changed to another initiative type perk, but that's me.
This is straight up an existing rogue feat, so take it up with Paizo :P
Knew it sounded familiar. I guess guaranteed Recall Knowledge with Perception is kinda nice. Might have mis valued it.
I agree the wording here is kinda awkward because I based it on the phrasing in Penetrating Shot, probably worth my taking a second pass at. I wanted to give an extra thematic ribbon over penetrating shot since its a grit ability, and the part about hitting more targets on lethal damage a la cleave seemed like a good choice bc it's really cool if you can pull it off, but it'll almost never actually happen because 3+ enemies will so rarely be in a straight line.
Thing is though, Ranger's also need to have a Hunted Target, so to me the having Grit is sort of a wash.
I like the Ribbon, but honestly, with Reloads so high on guns and ammo have such big costs, this is already really good without the Ribbon.
Remember, Penetrating Shot is going to typically be with a Bow or Crossbow, and both of those weapons have lower reloads and costs and the long bow has Volley to get similar damage to the others. Revolvers won't want this feat as much, but it sorta makes sense that Revolvers would be the lowest gun on the totem pole for this type of feat (Single Shot, Rifles both want this since it alleviates reloads).
In fact, if you pair this with Running Reload on a Single Shot pistol or Rifle, you have a pretty "thematic" and cool turn. You fire a shot, costs two strikes, running reload to sneak to the next area.
It's not like it's OP or anything though, but it'd be nice if it had an interaction with that.
The paths and their interactions with the base ability are the shining part of the class for me. It'd be cool if there was more "leaning" into those in the Feat territory as well.
Everyone else has generally my same thoughts on the mechanics of the class, so I'll address the items.
Nodachi might be too good. Deadly stops at d10s for every other weapon. Every deadly d10 weapon has at most one other positive trait. I believe Forceful is the more appropriate of the two traits to keep.
The nodachi, single shots, and bullets need the uncommon trait for sure. I think the loading weapons should be rare, worth 15-20 gold (comparing to composite bows and Aldori dueling swords), and possibly have the rare trait. Despite the loading weapons high reload times, they still seem to be heads and shoulders above single shots. Its appropriate and (probably) balanced, but that also means they shouldn't be available at the same time and rate as single-shots. The closest comparison I can make is fullplate. It costs almost twice as much as the next best armor, and is unavailable until level 2.
Edit: I also like the Note on Film and Appropriation. Something like that wouldn't make it in an official publication, and its nice to see it.
Called Shot probably needs to have a Class DC on the effect and then breaking down the effect into extractable tiers and add the incapacitation trait. Some of the effects in a boss fight are just way too good I think. Here's how I could see it working though:
Eyes - Target becomes Dazzled on Failure, or Blind on Critical Failure
Temple - Target becomes Stunned 1, or Stunned 2 on a Critical Failure
Hand - Target becomes Enfeebled 1, or Enfeebled 2 on a Critical Failure
Legs - Target becomes Clumsy 1, or Clumsy 2 on a Critical Failure
Then you can probably just drop the -5 to the attack in favor of say something more reasonable, like a -2 to attack with a duration of until the end of its turn.
That makes the Mercenary who uses Dirty Trick really want to setup his FF strike first, and then do this, and then next turn pull another dirty trick if they can help it.
It's slightly weaker than Stunning Fist, but I feel like the versatility and the interaction with Mercenary are the key factors to think of.
Regarding Lightning Draw, what if it conferred Slowed 1 for 1 round on you when you use it? That way it's not breaking the action economy so much as giving you a first round action upon rolling initiative rather than waiting your turn.
I think it should allow you to draw your weapon on the initiative roll and potentially give an initiative bonus if you don’t have a weapon in hand
It should also not be an automatic way to gain grit for free but the grit part of this homebrew needs more discussion. Far to easy to gain
I think it should allow you to draw your weapon on the initiative roll and potentially give an initiative bonus if you don’t have a weapon in hand
It should also not be an automatic way to gain grit for free but the grit part of this homebrew needs more discussion. Far to easy to gain
I would be okay with the initiative being one of the places they can actively gain Grit, but it would need to be sort of a "trade" kinda thing.
That was sort of what I was going for with "Fast on the Draw" from the other thread, because it was an advantage but it was also heavily influenced by player choice (to where using it could actually put you at a worse initiative, but potentially going before the person you need to go before).
It centered them as "singling an opponent out", which interestingly, I think is also a pretty strong theme if only for the fact that the "one v one" duelist themes are pretty strong for both the Gunslinger and Ronin, and the Mercenary is probably looking to narrow the field.
That said, on your latter point, Grit does seem too easy to get and I think something with the Paths should probably influence that (outside of simply Lighting Draw).
Ronin should probably be influenced by movement in some capacity, since mobility and gap closing or even dodging attacks maybe. Perhaps after they make step or stride and land a strike, it restores Grit. This encourages them to move often. Perhaps even opening up styles of combat (like Iaijutsu style that makes Drawing a weapon count as a "move" action for Grit purposes).
Gunslinger might derive from reloads or multiple attacks hitting in a round (this encourages them to use abilities that trigger multiple attacks).
Maybe Mercenary can be focused on making strikes against targets who have a debuff to achieve grit.
If we're taking suggestions, "Rub some dirt on it" type feat would be very thematic I think for the Mercenary (and even the Gunslinger/Ronin to some extent) as fighting while injured is also sort of a staple.
Perhaps a reaction similar to the Orc's Ferocity would suffice or perhaps something akin to Battle Medine that still removes the Wounded condition.
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Wow, I didn't expect this kind of response! A lot of this is fantastic feedback since this is my first homebrew for PF2 so I don't have a perfect grasp of the balance yet.
Some thoughts on people's suggestions:
Regarding Lightning Draw, what if it conferred Slowed 1 for 1 round on you when you use it? That way it's not breaking the action economy so much as giving you a first round action upon rolling initiative rather than waiting your turn.
I REALLY like this idea--it seems pretty clear from people's feedback that lightning draw is overtuned (although I'm still not sure why, since as far as I can tell it boils down to 1 free attack per combat, which is less mileage than I saw my party's fighter get out of AoO at level 1). I think I'm definitely stealing this for my next version of this class.
Everyone else has generally my same thoughts on the mechanics of the class, so I'll address the items.[...]
Thanks for this, weapon balance is probably one of the aspects I have the least handle on so this is super helpful.
Grit is too easy to get!
This seems to be a pretty prevalent opinion, and I'm curious why that is? On my reading of the swashbuckler, it seems like the actions they use to get grit are usually things you'd be spending your third action on instead of an attack anyway, and they'd likely also be getting Panache every turn--and furthermore Panache grants some pretty strong passive buffs while you have it, which Grit doesn't do. Perhaps it would be more balanced if retorts only restored grit if the action is successful? This might also help bring Lightning Draw more in line, since it would mean you only start the combat with grit if the attack hits.
[...]but it's worth mentioning that I do agree that Warrior-Poet shouldn't just grant a straight skill increase.
I agree, I just couldn't come up with something better when I was writing this first draft. I like your idea, and might go with something similar.
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Also, as far as my next draft goes--
Would there be an interest in my posting my second draft here? It seems like this is a pretty popular idea, so I think its worth my editing it and doing the last 10 levels.
Additionally, while I was writing it it occurred to me that I should maybe include the animal companion feat line, since the "A man and his dog" and the "A man and his horse" tropes are both pretty core to the genre I'm shooting for here. Do people think this is a good idea? My only concern is it might have a butterfly effect on balance in allowing two powerful moves per turn, since so many of the stronger grit actions are 2 actions.
Also, as far as my next draft goes--
Would there be an interest in my posting my second draft here? It seems like this is a pretty popular idea, so I think its worth my editing it and doing the last 10 levels.
Additionally, while I was writing it it occurred to me that I should maybe include the animal companion feat line, since the "A man and his dog" and the "A man and his horse" tropes are both pretty core to the genre I'm shooting for here. Do people think this is a good idea? My only concern is it might have a butterfly effect on balance in allowing two powerful moves per turn, since so many of the stronger grit actions are 2 actions.
Yes, definitely post the next draft. I'd like to critique the second draft, now that I'm late to the party.
I don't know if an animal companion feat line is necessary, since there are animal companion archetypes coming out. I would avoid it personally.
Also, as far as my next draft goes--
Would there be an interest in my posting my second draft here? It seems like this is a pretty popular idea, so I think its worth my editing it and doing the last 10 levels.
Additionally, while I was writing it it occurred to me that I should maybe include the animal companion feat line, since the "A man and his dog" and the "A man and his horse" tropes are both pretty core to the genre I'm shooting for here. Do people think this is a good idea? My only concern is it might have a butterfly effect on balance in allowing two powerful moves per turn, since so many of the stronger grit actions are 2 actions.
Yes, definitely post the next draft. I'd like to critique the second draft, now that I'm late to the party.
I don't know if an animal companion feat line is necessary, since there are animal companion archetypes coming out. I would avoid it personally.
Definitely post the second draft! I agree with WatersLethe that with other animal companion options, it doesn't particularly need it...
Unless you can come up with a cool way to synergize grit and an animal companion
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Wow, I didn't expect this kind of response! A lot of this is fantastic feedback since this is my first homebrew for PF2 so I don't have a perfect grasp of the balance yet.
It's a really well done first go.
I REALLY like this idea--it seems pretty clear from people's feedback that lightning draw is overtuned (although I'm still not sure why, since as far as I can tell it boils down to 1 free attack per combat, which is less mileage than I saw my party's fighter get out of AoO at level 1). I think I'm definitely stealing this for my next version of this class.
I do like AP's idea as well, but the issue I have with Lightning Draw is simple:
It breaks the rules of combat and it makes combat much clunkier to run as a GM.
People are saying it's too strong, I actually don't think it's that strong, but it is an ability that the Drifter will use every single combat and as a GM, I can tell you, while "goes first most of the time" is fine, there is a hard line between go first always.
And that's effectively what this does.
I like Animated Paper's idea, but as a GM, the "disrupt standard order of combat" thing is a bit of a problem for me.
On top of that, it grants Grit and is a direct benefit and will get used every single time. That's far and away different from Swashbuckler who really doesn't have any guarantees.
Let's look at the coming feat for Swashbuckler called "After You", which allows them to go last in Initiative in order to start with Panache.
That emphasizes how difficult it should be to use this, and since all of Gunslingers Grit abilities are solid it seems really unfair to not only give them Grit when they use this action, but to also be straight beneficial.
That's more or less why I keep coming back to the central idea behind them beating someone specific in initiative as opposed to "everyone".
TL;DR It's mostly the ability breaks the main paradigms of combat rules more than it is overpowered to me personally.
This seems to be a pretty prevalent opinion, and I'm curious why that is? On my reading of the swashbuckler, it seems like the actions they use to get grit are usually things you'd be spending your third action on instead of an attack anyway, and they'd likely also be getting Panache every turn--and furthermore Panache grants some pretty strong passive buffs while you have it, which Grit doesn't do. Perhaps it would be more balanced if retorts only restored grit if the action is successful? This might also help bring Lightning Draw more in line, since it would mean you only start the combat with grit if the attack hits.
While I agree, the passive damage from Panache is nice, it's also MONUMENTALLY harder to trigger Panache, to the point where going last in initiative is considered a "good trade" to get it.
The biggest problem people had with Swashbuckler is they had to succeed at on level checks of Skills on enemies in order to gain panache (typically anyways), the main one being "Tumble Through".
That's absolutely not a guarantee as a 3rd action (heck the Gymnast takes MAP to some of its options).
My personal opinion would be instead of saying "retorts restore grit" would instead do the following:
- Nerf/Rework Lightning Draw as the "main" Grit gaining mechanic, similar to the "Tumble Through" action of Swashbuckler
- Define a base combination of actions/markers for gaining Grit to each Class Path. This does two things: It defines which feats they will want to select to better return Grit and it will define completely different playstyles in gaining Grit
- Ronin gains Grit whenever they successfully use an action with the "Move" trait followed by a Successful Strike. Add Move trait to Flashing Parry, Killing Strike, Blood Spray, and Flash Counter.
- Mercenary gains Grit whenever they successfully make a strike against a Flat-Footed, Stunned, or Dazzled. Probably add the Dread Striker from the Rogue to let them flex into the "Intimidation" area to setup for Flat-Footed.
- Gunslinger gains Grit whenever they make two successful strikes during the same turn (and then add the "this counts as two successful strikes for the purposes of gaining Grit" to Dead Eye, Full Metal Jacket, etc). PI think it would make sense for them to take advantage of "wasted" actions by returning Grit for reloads in saying if you reload and make a successful strike in the same turn, you gain Grit.
- Remove Retorts
- Add Class Feats that restore Grit in other ways.
- Add a passive benefit to +2 circumstance Bonus to Perception, a +1 circumstance bonus to AC, and +1 circumstance bonus to any action that would help a Drifter gain grit (this is actually really good because most of the ways a Drifter gets Grit in this change is via attacks, so a +1 is nice).
This makes it to where, even if you use no Class Feats or anything at all, each Class Path has a specific and clear way to trigger Grit with the basic actions any character can do.
It will need that type of things strictly from an MCD perspective as well, so things like "make two successful strikes with a gun", "use an action with the move trait and make a successful strike in the same turn" and "make a successful strike against a Flat-footed, Stunned, or Dazzled target" all possible just by operating normally.
They each encourage totally different styles of play and all have clear ways that both the player and the GM can kinda try unique and different things in combat.
That fluidity to the actions I think is missing, right now it feels like I need feats BAD just to get Grit (outside Lightning Draw that is).
This is all IMO of course, and I have to give extreme credit to the way you've structured the "feel" and advantages to each Class Path, as I think that's what lead me to these "intuitive" versions of getting Grit back.
This also creates a "momentum" type of play.
Lastly, in case it's not obvious, I obviously will be back for the next draft :)
Additionally, while I was writing it it occurred to me that I should maybe include the animal companion feat line, since the "A man and his dog" and the "A man and his horse" tropes are both pretty core to the genre I'm shooting for here. Do people think this is a good idea? My only concern is it might have a butterfly effect on balance in allowing two powerful moves per turn, since so many of the stronger grit actions are 2 actions.
Sounds like we have Class Path number 4 :)
"You gain Grit whenever you and your animal companion make a successful strike against the same target, or your animal companion supports you while making a successful strike"
As for the "action starved" problem, I hear you, and it might make sense in this case to grant a reaction that helps them specifically eliminate the problem.
With that said, the "2 actions for Grit" actions are for the most part things that the Drifter might need to consider when selecting his actions.
A good first action for the path might be something akin to this:
Intuitive Companion
_______________________________
Reaction
Prerequisites Animal Companion
Required Your animal companion is within range for command
Trigger An enemy is within range of a strike of you or your Animal Companion
"You can command your Animal Companion to take the Support action as a reaction."
Just realized the the "Tamer" path needs to start with an AC, so Intuitive Companion would probably need to be a Class Feat (honestly felt like it was too strong for level 1 anyways).
If it had the Grit trait and was level 4 Drifter Class Feat, that would be pretty on par I think.
I'm thinking there might be some cool interaction with the Delay Mechanic that we're missing.
What if Lightning Draw was a Reaction that you could use even if you Delay and then all Drifter's just start with the General Feat (much like Shield Block) Incredible Initiative.
LIGHTNING DRAW
Your quick reflexes allow you to get the jump on your opponents, drawing and striking with your weapon at lightning speed. You can still take Reactions after using the Delay action, and immediately start your turn if you do. You also gain the Lightning Draw reaction.
LIGHTNING DRAW
________________________
Reaction
Trigger Your last action was the Delay Action and an opponent is about to begin their turn.
Requirements You are not flat-footed and you are not wielding a weapon.
You attack your foe before they can even react. You may Interact
to draw a weapon, then Strike with that weapon. If that Strike is successful, you gain Grit.
Okay so hear me out.
What this changes, is it makes "Delay" action the critical action that all Drifters want to take.
This is both interesting and thematic, because ultimately one of the really common trends among the "Grit" themes is perfect timing, whether it be reactionary or just right moment type deals.
This also opens them up to collecting cool reactions that allow them to consistently break into initiative and change the action.
Thoughts? I think this retains the beauty of Cozzymandias's idea, while opening up the Delay action as the "grounded" center of the Drifter.
A bunch of stuff re: Lightning Draw [...] TL;DR It's mostly the ability breaks the main paradigms of combat rules more than it is overpowered to me personally.
That's a fair point actually, I see what you mean. I'll have to think of a way to get that quickdraw flavor without having it be as oppressive.
suggestions on changing the Grit economy
That tracks on why Panache is harder to get than I thought. That said, I think I'm gonna try to adjust the existing Grit economy, rather than going with something like this, for a couple reasons:
One, I think the interplay between retorts between turns and grit actions on your turn works very well, because almost all retorts are in response to enemy attacks which incentivizes putting yourself in the middle of the fray so you can make sure to have an opportunity to retort every turn, which is I think a very flavorful dynamic for the mechanic to have.
Two, I hesitate to have both the level one retort AND grit action be tied to the class path (although if I have an awesome idea I'd definitely be open to having the grit action be universal and the retort tied to path, rather than the other way around) because IMO that would weaken the identity of the class as a whole, because so many of your abilities would be tied to your subclass.
Finally, having grit gain be tied to reactions means that it's impossible to gain grit on your own turn, which means that you can only use one grit action per turn. That lets me keep a tighter rein on doing shenanigans like spamming Deadeye.
IMO, I think saying Retorts only get you grit if the retort is successful will make it less trivial to get, in the same vein as Panache actions requiring a successful on-level skill check. For example Flash Parry would only give you grit if the increase to AC prevents an attack, Snap Shot would only give you grit if the attack hits, etc.
Regarding the Ronin path, giving two advance weapon proficiencies is very nice but I'm not sure entirely needed. Generally speaking there is some barrier to entry on them which requires a feat. For the Gunslinger path yes it makes sense but for the Ronin I'm not convinced.
What if instead they got heavy armor proficiency? It would be fit with the Rogue Samurai or Knight trope and help out characters that want to run strength and still do fine in melee.
Good thought! I initially gave them that because I forgot that katanas and naginatas were martial weapons and wanted to make sure you could start with them--I think a simple switch to gaining an uncommon weapon proficiency instead of an advanced one would be fine. Giving heavy armor is a good idea actually, but not universal to the wandering ronin trope--I think it might be a good fit as an early class feat.
I don't know if an animal companion feat line is necessary, since there are animal companion archetypes coming out. I would avoid it personally.
I totally forgot that archetype was coming! I agree that having that available probably fills that gap.
Just for clarity, reactions aren’t the central Grit gaining mechanic, they are just the last line of defense so to speak.
Tumble through is less than ideal for a feinter, but if they have to, it’s an option.
My thinking with granting them reactions during a delay is two fold:
1. It enables concepts with a small unique global change to the class that I think while strong is thematically appropriate and not overpowered.
2. It opens up the universal reaction, Lightning Draw, to being used as you say to start a turn.
Incredible initiative gives them a strong start on that front and expert perception opens them up to good standard initiative.
So they are likely to go first, and when they do, they get to basically Delay until the enemy or ally they want is about to act, giving them a thematic presence to the scene.
Now, each class path, like the Swashbuckler, can still trigger grit in another way and potentially with feats additional ways, but the incentives to delay are always good since they can essentially react into a round or just jump into the round after someone goes as normal. Delaying doesn’t guaranteed give Grit, but it can enable actions that provide Grit.
The rewritten Lightning Draw has two requirements, you’re not flat-footed and you aren’t wielding a weapon. That creates incentives to either not be wielding a weapon (iajuitsu or thrown weapons) which still costs. If there’s a concern for balance here, you simply state “you start your turn with a Multiple Attack Penalty of the Weapon you used to Strike.”
So you end up with a lot of versatility in how a gunslinger wants to go about a round.
Do you spend a Grit to use a Grit mechanic that might also restore Grit? (Double down so to speak) or do you hold it and maintain the ac and perception while using your other abilities to boost your ability to take advantage of your Class Feats that can trigger it (In the scenario with grit being tied to Path). Potentially with Battle Assessment or Demoralize or Steely Gaze or Blood Burst or Dirty Trick or Called Shot.
They seem very solidly in the debuff until I can trigger grit reliably with an action that also triggers grit.
Basically, they slow burn into a “nova” round or burn through a bunch of low levels quick by reliably triggering grit. That to me is not only different and strong that’s different from other classes, it “fits” the theme of play.
But maybe I’m off base here. The iron is hot, these are just some things I’ve been thinking about lately with regard to how it functions. Delay seems like a cool action to center the “perfect timing”/“reactionary”/“no mistakes” class to me, but maybe that’s not how others see the concept.
EDIT: On further thought Lightning Draw should probably read:
LIGHTNING DRAW
________________________
Reaction
Trigger Your last action was the Delay Action and an opponent is about to begin their turn.
Requirements You are not flat-footed, you are not wielding a weapon, and this is the first round of initiative.
You attack your foe before they can even react. You may Interact
to draw a weapon, then Strike with that weapon. If that Strike is successful, you gain Grit.
And then the feat:
Iajuitsu
Prerequisites Ronin
"You can use the Lightning Draw reaction as long as you are not holding a weapon and are not flat-footed."
I’d propose a change of the name “Mercenary” to “Cutthroat” on the premise that a mercenary is a profession and cutthroat fills the same overall theme of “underhanded and for hire”.
After thinking about Blood Spray, it's way too good for a level 2 feat. Dazzled is just really strong.
That said, I think if you moved it to 6th level and changed it to an additional Critical Specialization effect with Piercing/Slashing weapons, that creates a LOT of versatility.
Then you can afford to extend the duration to "the start of your next turn" and allow it to add Grit:
BLOOD SPRAY
_____________________________________________
Reaction
Requirements You land a critical hit with a piercing or slashing weapon.
_____________________________________________
"When you make a deadly strike, you cause an opponents blood to fly. When you land a critical hit with a piercing or slashing weapon, you may choose the following Critical Specialization effect instead of the one associated with the weapon group:
The target has refuse in their eyes, becoming dazzled until the start of your next turn."
_____________________________________________
So the reason I like this change a lot, is it kinda opens them up to more debuff options than any other class for the Critical Specialization aspect of weapons, something I think can really be explored with the Drifter.
Drifters are known for being deadly, so them being the most versatile with Critical Specialization sounds like a cool way to let them flex that role.
It's also way more balanced because a single action, non-map, non-grit, that can dazzle (20% miss chance no matter the enemy) is just SUPER good.
As a final note, this got me thinking, what if landing a Critical with a strike was one of the ways a Drifter could gain Grit? This keeps them focused on dishing attacks out in hopes to trigger Criticals, and also gives them incentives to pick off certain targets first. Given that they focus on maximizing the value of their attacks with Grit, this can help them feel less starved.
Side Note: Sorry I'm blowing up this thread Cozzymandias, I'm just having a lot of fun here!
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Midnight, your proposed changes would make this class too close to the Swashbuckler or Rogue. You want to move Grit generation off Reactions and onto player's 3rd actions, but that playstyle already exists. If that was intended, then carry on, but personally I'd rather see if Cozzy can make Retorts happen.
LIGHTNING DRAW
________________________
Reaction
Trigger Your last action was the Delay Action and an opponent is about to begin their turn.
Requirements You are not flat-footed, you are not wielding a weapon, and this is the first round of initiative.You attack your foe before they can even react. You may Interact
to draw a weapon, then Strike with that weapon. If that Strike is successful, you gain Grit.
This is non-functional. You don't get reactions when you delay until you re-enter initiative, and you re-enter initiative after someone has gone, not before someone goes. I'm not criticizing the idea, but the language needs another draft. Probably need to make it a class specific version of the Delay action that specifically sets up a reaction later, rather than a reaction after you delay.
If Lightning Draw was reworked along these lines, I think the class can safely get back it's first level feat.
The proposed "Iajuitsu" feat might need an edit as well. Or given to the Alchemist class for their bomber builds.
--
Unrelated to Midnight, I wanted to point out the Opportune Throw feat, which is a ranged AoO. Rewording it somehow might work for the Gunslinger path: Opportune Throw.
Opportune Throw
Reaction
Feat 16
{Uncommon} {Archetype}
Source Pathfinder #151: The Show Must Go On pg. 74
Archetype Juggler
Prerequisites legendary in Performance, Juggler Dedication
Requirements You are Juggling a thrown weapon.
Trigger A creature within 10 feet of you uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using.
You make a thrown ranged Strike with the required weapon against the triggering creature. If you critically succeed and the trigger was a manipulate action, you disrupt that action. This Strike doesn’t count against your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to this Strike.
Edit:
As a final note, this got me thinking, what if landing a Critical with a strike was one of the ways a Drifter could gain Grit? This keeps them focused on dishing attacks out in hopes to trigger Criticals, and also gives them incentives to pick off certain targets first. Given that they focus on maximizing the value of their attacks with Grit, this can help them feel less starved.
Now this idea for generating Grit might work better, if Retorts can't be made to work. Since that was how Grit worked in PF1, it would go over well with the grognards I think.
Midnight, your proposed changes would make this class too close to the Swashbuckler or Rogue.
I don't agree, because reactions are not the central point of the class. Delay would be. No class uses Delay.
This is non-functional. You don't get reactions when you delay until you re-enter initiative, and you re-enter initiative after someone has gone, not before someone goes.
AnimatedPaper I think you missed the prepatory portion of the ability:
LIGHTNING DRAW
Your quick reflexes allow you to get the jump on your opponents, drawing and striking with your weapon at lightning speed. You can still take Reactions after using the Delay action, and immediately start your turn if you do. You also gain the Lightning Draw reaction.
Basically, the intent is it's always advantageous for a Drifter to delay on the first round, even if it's to take their turn immediately (honestly could probably just add "if it's your turn" to Lightning Draw as well just to avoid the "delay and immediately react" portion.)
The goal was to give them a specific action that sets them apart from other classes play styles. Being able to use Reactions during Delay is not at all similar to anyone else IMO, and that to me is what sets it very much apart from Swashbuckler.
Now the goal isn't go give them a ton of reactions, it's to give them options of when they can break Delay with the occasional ability like Lightning Draw ("an opponents turn is about to begin").
This also creates a "slow drop" in initiative for them, which is kinda cool, as it demonstrates the patience and "balance" in letting the flow of action being dictated by the Drifter.
Delaying in this sense is also risky, if you don't trigger a reaction, you can only come into a turn after someone else acts.
Now, to prevent acting in someones turn that's already going on, we restrict "start your turn immediately" portion to Lightning Draw (and other Reactions with the trigger "an enemies turn is about to start").
Then AoO (should they multiclass for it) is of course still allowed during a Delay, which is always advantageous to have, but it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game by launching them into iniative on someone else's turn (since it doesn't have the "an enemy is about to start it's turn" trigger).
Now this idea for generating Grit might work better, if Retorts can't be made to work. Since that was how Grit worked in PF1, it would go over well with the grognards I think.
Retorts seem to be on the out, so I think we need to consider the reasoining behind them being axed.
I think this change works for a lot of reasons, because the Drifter seems to be focused on giving themselves advantages and debuffing enemies by working towards gaining an opportune moment to Trigger grit.
The enemy is flatfooted? 10% more likely to critical. You have Grit? +1 circumstance bonus to attacks.
This also plays well with the Deadly weapons they use.
Always Ready
"Your quick reflexes allow you to get the jump on your opponents, drawing and striking with your weapon at lightning speed. You gain the Incredible Initiative general feat and you can take Reactions even after using the Delay action. You also gain the Lightning Draw reaction."
LIGHTNING DRAW
________________________
Reaction
Trigger An enemy is about to begin their turn or it is your turn.
Requirements You are not flat-footed, you are not wielding a weapon, and this is the first round of initiative.
________________________
"You attack your foe before they can even react. You may Interact to draw a weapon, then Strike with that weapon. If that Strike is successful, you gain Grit. You are no longer Delayed and immediately start your turn."
EDIT: The one thing I really love about this, is it's interaction between two Drifters which is something Lightning Draw really doesn't take into account as currently written in the OP (who goes first if everyone goes first?)
Basically, with this rework, if two Drifters face off, whoever rolled higher in initiative gets to use Lightning Draw first no matter what, and can even delay right before the other person reacts.
Tell me that doesn't have the same vibe as a High Noon/Duel/Face-off? I think it hits that theme really nicely.
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Version 2.0 is done!
I would of course appreciate feedback on both the changes and the new stuff--For those who have been following this thread, there's a page listing all the changes at the back of the document so you don't have to reread the whole thing.
Some notes on this version: While I'm very happy with the changes to the grit economy, I'm not entirely pleased with the higher-level feats. There are a lot of feats shared with existing classes because they seemed appropriate, and not as many new ones as I'd like; There are also almost no high-level retorts. I'd appreciate suggestions in those areas so that I can fill them out some more.
Also, the In the Nick of Time feat is VERY experimental and there's not really anything existing like it, so it may not fit with everyone's table, but its super cool and thematic so I threw it in anyway.
Revise "constitution saving throw" in Drifter's Gambit to "Fortitude Save".
God, In the Nick of Time f+@#ing RULES. Love this feat.
I will have more time to respond tomorrow, but I read through most of it this evening and you did a really great job on the next ten levels of feats and quite a few of the rework pieces are solid.
Nick of time is actually hilariously cool, and while it might need tweaking, it’s within realm of reason for an 18th level feat in my opinion.
I like Drifters Gambit, but the save DC has to change, damage outscales save proficiencies really really quickly and with a critical failure effect and costing a reaction, that’s almost more bad than good to try. It’s also weirdly good to prioritize using it against attacks that do less damage, which seems like it should be the opposite (withstand hefty blows better than others). I like that it gives them survivability but it’s contingent on gm attacking the Drifter, which while solid still, means it’s probably more valuable to melee style play (gunslinger will probably not trigger this as often as the Ronin). Great second pass.
I think it can work, just needs some tuning maybe.
I like Drifters Gambit, but the save DC has to change, damage outscales save proficiencies really really quickly and with a critical failure effect and costing a reaction, that’s almost more bad than good to try. It’s also weirdly good to prioritize using it against attacks that do less damage, which seems like it should be the opposite (withstand hefty blows better than others). I like that it gives them survivability but it’s contingent on gm attacking the Drifter, which while solid still, means it’s probably more valuable to melee style play (gunslinger will probably not trigger this as often as the Ronin).
I like it, but I was just about to post that the math doesn't really work, and it's incentive is in being hit by weak foes.
I think, bard style, the DC should be based on your own level, which does make it a little flat in terms of what you have to roll, but I see it being thematically about the drifter's resolve and toughness, not really about the foe. Clench your cigarillo in your teeth and dig deep, recall your lost honour and steel yourself, etc. Honestly could see it as a Will save. You're not recovering from or resisting a wound, your ignoring it from sheer willpower (very on theme IMO). Though turn Will saves into crit successes on Unshakeable would need to be looked at if that were the case. Also, this being a core feature the stat it depends on becomes an important secondary stat, and I see Drifters as more high-Wis, than high-Con.
Lvl | Fort | Will | DC
1 | +5 | +7 | 15
2 | +6 | +8 | 16
3 | +9 | +9 | 18
4 | 10 | 10 | 19
5 | 12 | 12 | 20
6 | 13 | 13 | 22
7 | 14 | 16 | 23
8 | 16 | 18 | 24
9 | 17 | 19 | 26
10 | 19 | 21 | 27
Here's my takes on Draft 2, if I didn't mention something, it's probably because I either have no opinion or it's completely fine as is.
Overall, love the concepts coming out in your next 10.
My nitpick is I actually liked Lightning Draw/Class Paths more in version 1, since that generated a playstyle cohesion that I really think is missing with Drifter's Gambit.
I like Drifter's Gambit as an ability, but it's just really hard to imagine centering a class around it as it's currently written. I'd propose Lightning Draw is the centerpiece again, with some tweaks, but that's me.
Excellent, excellent work!
Agreed that Lightning Draw (preferably as the Delay style, but reaction is fine) was a lot more interesting AND likely to happen than Gambit.
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Probably gonna wait for a few more responses to roll in before I start discussing stuff, but one thing that already seems to be a pretty common thought:
I definitely agree that Lightning Draw was somewhat more flavorful than Drifter's Gambit, and it took me quite a lot of brainstorming to come up with something I was happy with for Drifter's Gambit in the first place. However, I just could not come up with a solution for Lightning Draw that was elegant and balanced--the more I thought about it, the more of a problem it was that you couldn't refresh Grit during combat at level 1, and the delay solution that was floated was a lot of awkward bookkeeping IMO since you'd be bouncing around in initiative every single combat.
With that said, I'm more happy with the thematicness and gameplay loop on the class paths with drifter's gambit than other folks seem to be. The Drifter gets to take the bullet and shoot back while incentivizing using high-power, multi-action attacks that might otherwise not be used due to the chance of missing, the Ronin gets to charge through the pain while helping with their positioning, particularly vs ranged combatants which is otherwise kind of rough for them, and the Outlaw gets to do a dirty trick while setting up their various payoffs for negative conditions (although I do agree that particular one is a little awkward).
the delay solution that was floated was a lot of awkward bookkeeping IMO since you'd be bouncing around in initiative every single combat.
I will concede that I do agree this is a bit annoying to deal with as a GM with initiative moving.
With that said, that's mostly just because of Delay itself, the Drifter would just be the one taking advantage of it the most (so basically the frequency of Delay is what causes the problem).
There might be some way to make Delay useful, but not altogether "use this every round" good. That would help with the bookkeeping issue you mention.
With that said, I'm more happy with the thematicness and gameplay loop on the class paths with drifter's gambit than other folks seem to be. The Drifter gets to take the bullet and shoot back
Woah, as far as I can tell you don't get an attack.
If you did get an attack after taking damage, and the success of that attack dictated the reduction of your damage, that might be worth exploring:
DRIFTER'S GAMBIT
Reaction
Trigger You would take damage from a physical attack and you are able to make a Strike against the triggering creature.
_________________________________________________
"You grit your teeth and absorb a blow, and respond in kind with your own. Make a Strike against the opponent that made the attack against you. This attack gains the following as well as the normal outcomes for a Strike:
Critical Success As success but reduce the damage taken by twice your level.
Success You gain Grit. Reduce the damage of the triggering attack by your level.
Failure You gain Grit. This attack applies a multiple attack penalty at the start of your next turn.
Critical Failure As Failure, but you do not gain Grit.
Special If you possess Quickdraw, you may Interact to draw a weapon as part of this Strike.
_________________________________________________
This opens the Version 1 Class Paths to make a return, as you can attribute the "attack" change to the same portions as before (which fixes my issues with most of them to be honest).
Not sure if the attack was always supposed to be part of the ability, but it's definitely absent in the V2 as written (unless the Save was somehow also an attack? not sure).
EDIT: Added line for Quickdraw cohesion.
EDIT 2: Added a Failure/Critical Failure to see how that sits (feel like it adds both a "safety net" for Grit and an opportunity cost). I could just as easily do without them, but figured I'd let others speak their mind.
EDIT 3: I actually think Quickdraw should get the Special tag, similar to how the Animal Companion feat changes for Rangers. That's generally how "exceptions" get codified to specific feats, so Quickdraw could come with the Clause:
Drifter: When using the Drifter's Gambit reaction, you may draw a weapon as part of the Strike.
So you have the Firearm weapon group, but not what its critical specialization is. My suggestion would be to make it the same as brawling weapons.
"The target must succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC or be slowed 1 until the end of your next turn."
I like [drifter's gambit], but I was just about to post that the math doesn't really work, and it's incentive is in being hit by weak foes.
Agree that the math doesn't work, I had a brain fart when I was doing the probabilities. I'll take another look at it (unless I end up changing DG as below)
Woah, as far as I can tell you don't get an attack.
If you did get an attack after taking damage, and the success of that attack dictated the reduction of your damage, that might be worth exploring:
As I wrote it it doesn't give an attack, no. I actually do like the idea of Drifter's Gambit giving an attack now that you mention it though--I think that's probably more thematic than reducing the damage. I'd probably have to cut the damage reduction since it might be a little OP even without it (you'd most likely be getting a free attack every single round), but it's definitely worth playing with.
So you have the Firearm weapon group, but not what its critical specialization is. My suggestion would be to make it the same as brawling weapons.
"The target must succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC or be slowed 1 until the end of your next turn."
Good catch, I'll update with that when I do version 3.0!
As I wrote it it doesn't give an attack, no. I actually do like the idea of Drifter's Gambit giving an attack now that you mention it though--I think that's probably more thematic than reducing the damage. I'd probably have to cut the damage reduction since it might be a little OP even without it (you'd most likely be getting a free attack every single round), but it's definitely worth playing with.
If we're being totally honest, the damage reduction is nigh but negligible portion of the ability itself, but it probably scales a little too well.
And I will point out you will not get this reaction every single round, only when a physical attack would deal damage to you and you're not flat-footed.
That's enough of a limiter to make AoO and this very close to even (AoO is at least in the hands of the player if they can force an enemy prone, or position themselves, this is entirely dependent on actually getting attacked).
I do think they need some kind of help in terms of protection though.
Barbs have higher HP, Fighters get Heavy Armor/Shields, Monks get Legendary Unarmored and Stances, and Champions get lots of benefits.
Rangers are in the same boat, but Rangers are typically ranged focus or they can grab the Twin Parry line and they can also bring in an Animal Companion to cushion damage too.
I really think Grit might benefit from a blanket "+1 circumstance bonus to AC", to make up for the fact that Drifter's aren't shield users, but maybe that's too much.
That might help Drifter's decide if holding Grit is a good idea to maintain survivability, or to expend the Grit and go for the Kill/Grit restore.
Grankless brought a great idea in another thread I want to be seen here. Bullet based firearms should use the Dart's critical specialization.
If you decide to put in scatter guns, those could use the Brawling group's spec.