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Yes I am well aware of the rules you state.
The microlab is an extraordinary ability not a skill.
The microlab is what is doing the work here not the biohacker as the attempt can be made untrained and gets an automatic roll of a 20.
That is far better than a skill.
Like I said until a FAQ comes along to say otherwise I am going to allow the microlab to be used exactly how it is written.
You're arguing that it's the raw , but its also the raw for for any identify skill. There's no particular raw reason that the microlab should work but regular ID skills don't. Its an ex ability not a skill is irrelevant to the raw. That its far better than a skill, or more expansive than a skill isn't the raw.
The raw also says the disguise is opposed by a perception check.
So what you have here is two pieces of raw that don't line up, but since most creatures aren't disguised I don't think its all that much of a stretch to say that the disguise rules are by far the more specific of the two.
I don't think taking one raw idea and running with it to the exclusion of the other raw is the best interpretation method
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Like I said until a FAQ comes along to say otherwise I am going to allow the microlab to be used exactly how it is written.
You're free to run it that way at your tables but that basically turns monster ID into an automatic disguise breaker that completely bypasses any modifier or ability the disguised creature has, which definitely doesn't seem like a reasonable and balanced use of identify.
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Here is an idea. Technically, identifying creatures lets you recall knowledge about those creatures. If you see an dragon that is secretly disguised as an orc. You would successfully use the micro lab to recall useful information about Orcs and not dragons. Is this a viable option? Of course should you pierce the disguise at a later point you could make a new identify creature check to recall knowledge.
I believe this is how it should work.
So why don't all identify creature checks identify other creatures, making disguise completely useless to go across species?
A normal identify creature check is remembering what you know about the creature you think you see using the relevant skill. A microlab identification is interpreting the output of your microlab after it scans the actual physical features of the target, using special science skills to interpret that data rather than remember anything.
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Here is an idea. Technically, identifying creatures lets you recall knowledge about those creatures. If you see an dragon that is secretly disguised as an orc. You would successfully use the micro lab to recall useful information about Orcs and not dragons. Is this a viable option? Of course should you pierce the disguise at a later point you could make a new identify creature check to recall knowledge.
I don't think the microlab lets you "recall" anything you learned about a creature, it lets you interpret the readouts of your microlab (radar, temperature, distances EKG/ultrasound, etc.).
Note that you can't use life science or physical science to identify off-brand creatures without your microlab, so you're not actually learning to use those skills differently. You're instead applying those skills to interpreting the data readout from your microlab scan. ("I see from this readout that its skin composition and genetic structures in my library indicate it resists fire, and this organ and chemical trace indicate a breath weapon.")
I don't think the microlab lets you "recall" anything you learned about a creature, it lets you interpret the readouts of your microlab (radar, temperature, distances EKG/ultrasound, etc.).
This is 100% correct as you can make the check with the miocrolab untrained.
Note that you can't use life science or physical science to identify off-brand creatures without your microlab, so you're not actually learning to use those skills differently. You're instead applying those skills to interpreting the data readout from your microlab scan. ("I see from this readout that its skin composition and genetic structures in my library indicate it resists fire, and this organ and chemical trace indicate a breath weapon.")
Well said.
Unless the creature disguising itself takes extraordinary measures to mask its DNA / extraordinary abilities the microlab will still id the creature even if disguised.
The mircolab is not making a perception check to see through a disguise.
The microlab scans the creature and the biohacker interprets the data using science.
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The raw also says the disguise is opposed by a perception check.
Does the microlab have to make a perception check to identify a creature?
No it does not.
It scans the creature and the biohacker uses the science skill to interpret the scan.
It is not attempting to see through the disguise.
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You're free to run it that way at your tables but that basically turns monster ID into an automatic disguise breaker that completely bypasses any modifier or ability the disguised creature has, which definitely doesn't seem like a reasonable and balanced use of identify.
It only is a disguise breaker if a creature is attempting to disguise itself as another creature type.
If it is a creature trying to look like a different creature of the same creature type the microlab is useless.
I don't see this as a game breaker at all.
As I see it a 20 CR disguise kit doesn't get you very far is a universe of highly advanced scanning and detection devices.
There is a misconception that the micro lab scans the targets dna and whatnot, but none of that is actually true. Read from the COM page 41.
As long as you have your custom microlab, as a move action you can target a creature within your line of sight and within the microlab’s range (60 feet at 1st level) and attempt a special skill check to identify it. If the creature is living, this is a Life Science check. If it is unliving, it’s a Physical Science check. The DC of this check is determined by the creature’s rarity, as presented on the Creature Rarity table on page 133 of the Core Rulebook. You can attempt this check untrained regardless of the DC, and you always treat your die roll result as a 20.
It lets you:
-use identify a creature within 60 ft.
-you always get 20 on your die.The identify attempt on page 133 CRB, specifically says that it lets you recall useful information about the target creature.
It’s like when you see an orc, (a dragon in disguise) it brings up lots of useful information about the orc. You have to succeed the perception check to see that the orc is not really an orc.
No misconception at all.
It states it is a special skill check.
It does not use the normal associated skills to identify the creature.
You get a roll of an automatic 20. It makes perfect sense that yes you are collection scientific data such as DNA.
You can attempt the check untrained.
Since you can attempt the check untrained you are not recalling any information about the target creature because you have none.
The microlab collects scientific data and the biohacker interprets it.
Disguises are defeated by perception.
The microlab does not use perception.
The biohacker may see an orc but the microlab does not (unless measures beyond a 20 CR disguise kit are taken to mask DNA and extraordinary abilities).
I will take it a step further. Make the biohacker blind. He sees no dragon disguised as an orc. He cannot make a perception check to see through the disguise.
It is a straight up scan on the disguised dragon that in fact reveals it to be a dragon and not an orc.
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There is a misconception that the micro lab scans the targets dna and whatnot, but none of that is actually true. Read from the COM page 41.
As long as you have your custom microlab, as a move action you can target a creature within your line of sight and within the microlab’s range (60 feet at 1st level) and attempt a special skill check to identify it. If the creature is living, this is a Life Science check. If it is unliving, it’s a Physical Science check. The DC of this check is determined by the creature’s rarity, as presented on the Creature Rarity table on page 133 of the Core Rulebook. You can attempt this check untrained regardless of the DC, and you always treat your die roll result as a 20.
It lets you:
-use identify a creature within 60 ft.
-you always get 20 on your die.The identify attempt on page 133 CRB, specifically says that it lets you recall useful information about the target creature.
It’s like when you see an orc, (a dragon in disguise) it brings up lots of useful information about the orc. You have to succeed the perception check to see that the orc is not really an orc.
Ah, so the highly superscientific microlab isn't scanning things to get physical data consistent with its species and imitating the obvious tricorder inspiration, it's instead taking a picture and running an image analysis and providing encyclopedia information. You interpret this encyclopedia information with science skills for some reason, even though there is no scientific data involved. Somehow it links this image analysis to your own perception roll and can see through to the real creature if and only if your own eyes do so.
Yes, that totally makes more sense and matches up better with what the class is based on and trying to do.
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Here is an idea. Technically, identifying creatures lets you recall knowledge about those creatures. If you see an dragon that is secretly disguised as an orc. You would successfully use the micro lab to recall useful information about Orcs and not dragons. Is this a viable option? Of course should you pierce the disguise at a later point you could make a new identify creature check to recall knowledge.I don't think the microlab lets you "recall" anything you learned about a creature, it lets you interpret the readouts of your microlab (radar, temperature, distances EKG/ultrasound, etc.).
Note that you can't use life science or physical science to identify off-brand creatures without your microlab, so you're not actually learning to use those skills differently. You're instead applying those skills to interpreting the data readout from your microlab scan. ("I see from this readout that its skin composition and genetic structures in my library indicate it resists fire, and this organ and chemical trace indicate a breath weapon.")
I think this is the best approach.
'Your microlab tells you the orc has a breath weapon'.
Then let your players figure it's probably a dragon gland instead of an actual dragon. Or a genetically engineered orc, whatever they come up with.
Vague hints at there being a disguise gives up the game. Hinting that the microlab can detect augmentations and whatnot implies that it's still and orc.
While that may mean you should let a microlab start detecting augments when there isn't a disguise, I think that's an acceptable casualty of letting a microlab identify a dragon without piercing it's disguise as an orc.
Everything you say is in line with the theme, but game mechanically it doesn’t bypass disguises. Perception does that, and that’s RAW.
So if we stick a wig and pointy elf ears on a human and dress him in elven attire (that qualify as a disguise right?) you are going to tell me that the micolab will detect him as an elf?
Or better yet we glue a replicate unicorn horn on a horse that is any color but white and the microlab is gonna state, yep that's a unicorn.
Both are really bad disguises, but by your logic cheap disguise items costing 20 CR or less completely nerf an extraordinary ability.
Really?
Everything you say is in line with the theme, but game mechanically it doesn’t bypass disguises. Perception does that, and that’s RAW.So if we stick a wig and pointy elf ears on a human and dress him in elven attire (that qualify as a disguise right?) you are going to tell me that the micolab will detect him as an elf?
Or better yet we glue a replicate unicorn horn on a horse that is any color but white and the microlab is gonna state, yep that's a unicorn.
Both are really bad disguises, but by your logic cheap disguise items costing 20 CR or less completely nerf an extraordinary ability.
Really?
I think the point is, 20 Cr, or 500 Cr (holoskin), a disguise kit in the starfinder universe is an extraordinary ability itself.
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Didn't volume 2 of Against the Aeon Throne establish that species detecting biometrics exist? I seem to recall the doors there could tell if you were Azlanti (or maybe just any human) and required hacking/bypass if you weren't, regardless of any disguise.
Only Reptoids/Grays and others with a magical polymorph effect should be dodging serious technical security looking to find species hiding themselves as others.
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If that is their general response to "This target has something suspicious about it", your players have some serious issues. Best solution: give them some adventures where killing random people is a bad idea and makes things harder for them. "Congratulations, you successfully killed an agent of the local crimelord! His actions in the adventure were only tangentially related to anything you cared about, but now the crimelord very specifically is interested in ruining the day of the people who up and shot one of his operatives!" Or so on.
Better yet an undercover agent of local law enforcement or the government.
You are trying to use the micro lab to make perception checks to reveal disguised creatures and nothing in the rules support that.
No you are not. Nowhere in the description of the microlab does it state the words "perception check".
Didn't volume 2 of Against the Aeon Throne establish that species detecting biometrics exist? I seem to recall the doors there could tell if you were Azlanti (or maybe just any human) and required hacking/bypass if you weren't, regardless of any disguise.
Only Reptoids/Grays and others with a magical polymorph effect should be dodging serious technical security looking to find species hiding themselves as others.
Yes indeed it does. It is described on page 7 when the PC arrive at Outpost Zed.
Thanks for that.
In my game that is exactly how the microlab is going to work It scans the biosignature of the target creature and then the biohacker interprets the data using the appropriate science check.
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No you are not. Nowhere in the description of the microlab does it state the words "perception check".
I think that's the point. It doesn't say anything about making perception checks or penetrating disguises, so inserting that in yourself and insisting that's the rules feels kind of weird and overbearing.
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I think that's the point. It doesn't say anything about making perception checks or penetrating disguises, so inserting that in yourself and insisting that's the rules feels kind of weird and overbearing.
It is neither weird or overbearing.
There are lots of rules in Starfinder that have giant descriptive gaps in them. This is further complicated by sourcebooks that have rules that are also lacking descriptive text. So as the GM for my group it is my responsibility to determine how to rule on something that is reasonable and thematic to my players and our campaign.
Using the microlab to identify creatures and using perception to see through a disguise are two completely unrelated checks using completely unrelated skills.
Using perception to see through a disguise does not allow you to identify a creature.
Let's take a look, bolding mine.
This check is opposed by a Disguise check attempted by the disguised creature. If you succeed, you realize the creature is disguised and not who it seems, but not necessarily who or what the disguised creature is beneath that disguise.
So all the perception check does is tell you the creature is disguised nothing more and nothing less.
It is another check (which is not a perception check) to identify the creature.
We look at the microlab's ability to identify creatures as a purely scientific one. Scan the creature to get its biosignature details and then make the appropriate science check to determine what it is. At my table a disguise has no bearing on it.
By the same token the microlab will not tell you if the creature is disguised.
It makes perfect sense to me, to my players and that's how we do it at my table.
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So if we're bringing adventure paths into it, has the Threefold Conspiracy been run by anyone for a party including a biohacker?
Would any of the mysteries be ruined by a biohacker PC auto-bypassing reptoid disguises by identifying them as reptoids? Are there disguised grays, and if so does it explain how they are disguised? Would biohacker bypass...
This is literally why I asked this question. The presence of a biohacker would almost completely invalidate half of the first book in Threefold Conspiracy if it automatically pierces disguises. For this reason I was not comfortable letting it do so.
Back to a previous point made about a 20cr item bypassing a special ability, take it the other direction. You have a level 1 ability that will automatically bypass any amount of money spent on technological or magical disguise unless that item replaces 100% of a creatures DNA, which would functionally make it not that creature anymore because at best you’re going to get two different readings.
All of this speculation is great and all and I love all the theory and logic thrown behind it but sadly there is no right answer without the purpose of my OP being answered by the devs. Does biohacker scan bypass disguises or not.
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Not allowing it because a) it would ivalidate a campaign AND b) you're making the more reasonable rules judgement in not allowing it is at least as right an answer as because the devs said so.
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I have a player planning on running a biohacker so I took a look at it. I don't think the intentions behind the rules are at all clear, but I do agree with the general rule of thumb that "If this rule interpretation completely breaks the setting or the campaign, it's the wrong interpretation."
So my personal ruling is that the microlab basically does a visual scan, combined with checking basic biosigns, and then compares that physiology to an internal database to produce results. It uses the same skill check result for scanning the creature (always rolling a 20) to get a free Perception check vs. the creature's Disguise check. If the microlab doesn't bear the target's Disguise check, it's fooled by the disguise and reports on the target's apparent species. If the microlab beats the Disguise check, it detects the irregularities (like analyzing artifacts in a Photoshop) and extrapolates around them to produce accurate results.
Aside from that, however, if a biohacker attunes their microlab to a creature, that involves a deep scan of the target's biodata, including genetics and so forth. Scanning an attuned target always ignores disguises to produce accurate readings.
I have a player planning on running a biohacker so I took a look at it. I don't think the intentions behind the rules are at all clear, but I do agree with the general rule of thumb that "If this rule interpretation completely breaks the setting or the campaign, it's the wrong interpretation."
So my personal ruling is that the microlab basically does a visual scan, combined with checking basic biosigns, and then compares that physiology to an internal database to produce results. It uses the same skill check result for scanning the creature (always rolling a 20) to get a free Perception check vs. the creature's Disguise check. If the microlab doesn't bear the target's Disguise check, it's fooled by the disguise and reports on the target's apparent species. If the microlab beats the Disguise check, it detects the irregularities (like analyzing artifacts in a Photoshop) and extrapolates around them to produce accurate results.
Aside from that, however, if a biohacker attunes their microlab to a creature, that involves a deep scan of the target's biodata, including genetics and so forth. Scanning an attuned target always ignores disguises to produce accurate readings.
That's a pretty good ruling. I like it.
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The reptoid in alien archive has a change shape ability which says it can 'assume the appearance' of another creature, 'gains a +10 racial bonus to disguise checks' and 'otherwise functions as disguise self' (disguise self being an illusion not a polymorph, though it does say in disguise self description it 'counts as altering your form', whatever that means). Alien Archive doesn't label Change Shape with a type (Ex, Su or Sp).Didn't volume 2 of Against the Aeon Throne establish that species detecting biometrics exist? I seem to recall the doors there could tell if you were Azlanti (or maybe just any human) and required hacking/bypass if you weren't, regardless of any disguise.
Only Reptoids/Grays and others with a magical polymorph effect should be dodging serious technical security looking to find species hiding themselves as others.
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I just started running Threefold Conspiracy and while we don't have a biohacker in the party yet, this issue could come up, and I noticed that nobody has corrected this comment about the reptoid's change shape ability. Alangriffith's description of change shape from the reptoid entry in Alien Archive appears to be taken from the version in the playable race sidebar. Reptoids run as monsters or adversaries in an adventure use the change shape universal monster ability, which is tagged (Su) as a supernatural ability and does not have the reference to disguise self or any suggestion that the ability is an illusion. Instead, the fact that a creature with the change shape ability can gain some of the physical abilities of the creature it is imitating suggests that this is a polymorph ability, although the universal monster rule does not include that word (probably because SF didn't get polymorph rules until AA2).
Here is the complete rule:
CHANGE SHAPE (SU)
The creature has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature, but it retains most of its own physical qualities. If the form assumed has any of the following abilities, the creature gains them while in that form: blindsight (scent), darkvision, low-light vision, and swim 30 feet. The creature can retain its own breathing ability, or it can assume the ability to breathe in any environment the assumed shape can breathe in (including the no breath ability, which enables it to survive in the vacuum of space). If the ability does not specify what the creature can change shape into, it can assume the form of any creature of the humanoid type, but it can’t mimic a specific humanoid. Change shape grants a +10 bonus to Disguise checks to appear as a creature of the type and subtype of the new form, and the DC of the creature’s Disguise check is not modified as a result of altering major features or disguising itself as a different race or creature type.A creature can assume a form that is one size category smaller or larger than its original form; it becomes that size. Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
Format: Other Abilities change shape (humanoid); creatures with a unique form also have an entry in Special Abilities.
Because change shape is a supernatural ability that does physically change the form of the creature, I agree with Big Norse Wolf, at least as to reptoids and other shapechangers: I don't see any reason under the rules for a biohacker's custom microlab to give the biohacker a better chance than a character of any other class to identify a disguised shapechanger as such. If the PC has a reason to be suspicious that the creature is not what it seems to be, they can make a Perception check opposed by the shapechanger's Disguise check to confirm that suspicion.