I have several weapons and armor with runes. I can't use any of it proficiently. I would like to transfer the runes to my own gear. The rules say this costs 10% of the rune price in crafting materials if done yourself. I'm not trained in craft, and so would like to hire someone else to do it. How much does it cost to have a capable NPC transfer a rune for you?
In society play, they've decreed its free.
For low level non-society play, 5sp (skilled hireling) is a pretty reasonable ballpark. (Though they're only about 50/50 per attempt at a weapon potency rune).
For anything above ~level 5 runes there's not great guidance, since we don't have hireling prices for master/above. Or even expert with effective NPC levels.
If I had to rule something quickly for a home game, I'd go the earned income table and just say 150% of the expert column for the task level of the rune, assuming the settlement could have a skilled enough crafter. (150% chosen since that makes the level 2 weapon potency rune get close to the 5sp expected cost)
In society play, they've decreed its free.
For low level non-society play, 5sp (skilled hireling) is a pretty reasonable ballpark. (Though they're only about 50/50 per attempt at a weapon potency rune).
For anything above ~level 5 runes there's not great guidance, since we don't have hireling prices for master/above. Or even expert with effective NPC levels.
If I had to rule something quickly for a home game, I'd go the earned income table and just say 150% of the expert column for the task level of the rune, assuming the settlement could have a skilled enough crafter. (150% chosen since that makes the level 2 weapon potency rune get close to the 5sp expected cost)
When you say free, are you saying Free as in the rune is just transferred, or is it free as in you pay the crafter the 10% it would cost you to do it IF you were skilled enough to do it? If they make anything off the work, it is because they are more efficient than a PC that might ry to do the work.
I am asking as I don’t know, but that appeared to potentially your intent. I guess I could even see the society play implying runes can get shuffled around by society allied craftsmen, to help insure society agents have the best combinations of resources available to them, and perhaps just keeping the rune on inventory, and the player being able to specify what it is on is more manageable than trying to track things like in a more conventional game. So maybe you meant free as in zero cost to transfer at all.
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Everything else costs the same to buy as to Craft, so just using the 10% seems intended.
In society play, they've decreed its free.
For low level non-society play, 5sp (skilled hireling) is a pretty reasonable ballpark. (Though they're only about 50/50 per attempt at a weapon potency rune).
For anything above ~level 5 runes there's not great guidance, since we don't have hireling prices for master/above. Or even expert with effective NPC levels.
If I had to rule something quickly for a home game, I'd go the earned income table and just say 150% of the expert column for the task level of the rune, assuming the settlement could have a skilled enough crafter. (150% chosen since that makes the level 2 weapon potency rune get close to the 5sp expected cost)
When you say free, are you saying Free as in the rune is just transferred, or is it free as in you pay the crafter the 10% it would cost you to do it IF you were skilled enough to do it? If they make anything off the work, it is because they are more efficient than a PC that might ry to do the work.
I am asking as I don’t know, but that appeared to potentially your intent. I guess I could even see the society play implying runes can get shuffled around by society allied craftsmen, to help insure society agents have the best combinations of resources available to them, and perhaps just keeping the rune on inventory, and the player being able to specify what it is on is more manageable than trying to track things like in a more conventional game. So maybe you meant free as in zero cost to transfer at all.
For society, the ruling from Organized Play was that the labor charge was free/handwaved. The 10% cost of the rune being transferred still needs to be paid.
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There is no cost in Society.
The Society has a specialist at the Grand Lodge who can apply or swap out runes for agents of the Pathfinder Society in good standing. This service is free, and requires no check, but is generally only available before boons are slotted or once the adventure is complete, not during the middle of an adventure.
There is no cost for the _service_, there is still the 10% thing. I'm not sure if you were saying that same thing. It was a ruling giving by Organized Play at PaizoCon.
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There is no cost in Society.
The Society has a specialist at the Grand Lodge who can apply or swap out runes for agents of the Pathfinder Society in good standing. This service is free, and requires no check, but is generally only available before boons are slotted or once the adventure is complete, not during the middle of an adventure.
Sounds like the ambiguity should be brought up with the PFS leadership. I'm not currently playing in PFS, so I don't have a horse in this race, but the language quoted above can be read either way. I tend to think (but do not "know") that NielsenE is correct.
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The clarification: "Michael Sayre: It does not cover the 10% transfer materials cost, just the hireling fee. We have this slated for clarification in the guide update."
Also, something to remember is the NPC / player transfering the rune needs to know the recipe of the rune to do so. And NPCs will need to be from appropriate level brackets in settlements (going by RAW and the availability guidelines)
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Also, something to remember is the NPC / player transfering the rune needs to know the recipe of the rune to do so. And NPCs will need to be from appropriate level brackets in settlements (going by RAW and the availability guidelines)
I don't think this is the universal interpretation for transferring a Rune.
I believe there are a substantial number of people on these boards who interpret the "Transferring Runes" rules as not requiring a formula for the rune being transferred.
I don't think this is the universal interpretation for transferring a Rune.
I believe there are a substantial number of people on these boards who interpret the "Transferring Runes" rules as not requiring a formula for the rune being transferred.
"You can transfer runes between one item and another, including a runestone (page 571). This also uses the Craft activity. "
And from the craft downtime activity entry
"To Craft an item, you must meet the following requirements:...
-You have the formula for the item; see Getting Formulas below for more information."
From the rune transferal section and the craft activity.
Feel free to cite evidence to the contrary though, I looked into it extensively a while back and couldn't find anything that disagreed with what is pretty clear RAW. (Staying away from "how I think it should work" discussions of course).
This thing is, that regarding transferral of runes not even RAW adds up properly. Yes page 580 tells us to use the craft activity, however the craft activity on page 244 does not mention transferral at all, just the requirements for crafting new items. Which means that the reference in 580 could easily be like they did for Battle Medicine, i.e. that just tells you how to determine skill check modifiers and DC but not how the action is actually performed (hand, no hand, healers kit, no healers kit etc). So this all comes down to the understanding of transfer versus actually crafting an item. You don't need to be a painter to be able to transfer a Picasso in between two picture frames, however if you want to transfer an impeller in between two different compressors you'd better be an engineer. So is this transfer of runes envisioned as a simple transfer or more like creating a new item?
The clarification: "Michael Sayre: It does not cover the 10% transfer materials cost, just the hireling fee. We have this slated for clarification in the guide update."Do you have a link, for future reference?
Primary source, unfortunately no. The original source was Michael's AMA channel within the PaizoCon Online discord. All those channels were archived when they prepared the server for use for ConCurrent. Some of those archived channels (mainly the keynotes, not the AMAs) had fan archives to reddit/etc.
Secondary source, the online regions discord, pf2, society-rules-clarifications is where I copied and pasted the quote from.
This thing is, that regarding transferral of runes not even RAW adds up properly. Yes page 580 tells us to use the craft activity, however the craft activity on page 244 does not mention transferral at all, just the requirements for crafting new items. Which means that the reference in 580 could easily be like they did for Battle Medicine, i.e. that just tells you how to determine skill check modifiers and DC but not how the action is actually performed (hand, no hand, healers kit, no healers kit etc). So this all comes down to the understanding of transfer versus actually crafting an item. You don't need to be a painter to be able to transfer a Picasso in between two picture frames, however if you want to transfer an impeller in between two different compressors you'd better be an engineer. So is this transfer of runes envisioned as a simple transfer or more like creating a new item?
Can you outline how it doesn't add up? Not mentioning transferring in the craft entry doesn't seem to preclude how it is used as far as I can see. Remember I am talking RAW not RAI, I think RAI could go either way.
From a story justification I see formulae being needed as being equivalent in having the knowledge enough about the rune and how it is affixed/grants power to transfer it / create them. Not saying this is the only way to think of it but wanted to throw it in there so you didn't think I was completely dismissing thematics either.As for battle medicine, I take that as being completely different to using the craft activity. "Attempt a Medicine check with the same DC as for Treat Wounds," it doesn't say attempt a treat wounds check so unless they alter the battle medicine action it only does what is said in the battle medicine feat RAW.
Which is, doesn't requires a healers kit but has the manipulate trait so 100% requires hands.
I would also mention that PFS isn't a great indicator for RAI either as it tends to have special rules or restrictions crafted for it and it alone all the time. It is nice to have, but core errata and the ever mysterious FAQ is what we need for anything else.
Well first of all I am not a native speaker nor an overly versed rules lawyer.
However when looking at the text for runes on under "the etching process" we are told how to create a rune from scratch:
Etching a rune on an item follows the same process as using the Craft activity to make an item. You must have the formula for the rune, the item you’re adding the rune to must be in your possession throughout the etching process, and you must meet any special Craft Requirements of the rune.
This is 100% in line with the Craft activity rules.
"To Craft an item, you must meet the following requirements:...
-You have the formula for the item; see Getting Formulas below for more information."
However under "transferring runes" it just reads the following, without confirming (or not confirming) any other requirements:
You can transfer runes between one item and another, including a runestone (page 571). This also uses the Craft activity.
So far, so good.
One strongly supported reading would be that the actual process for tranferring runes is the same as for crafting runes, so any requirements that are necessary for crafting runes also apply to transfering runes. I get that. To me however the individual rules texts do not add up.
The whole intro and rules text of the Craft activity is never mentioning transfer of runes even once. All it does is to describe how to make (new?) items from scratch.
You can make an item from raw materials. You need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to create alchemical items, the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items, and the Snare Crafting feat to create snares.
To Craft an item, you must meet the following requirements:...
However when transfering a rune I am not making an item from raw materials respectively crafting a (new) item, at least not in my understanding, so I find it doubtful to apply the same set of requirements. If transfering a rune is the same as etching/crafting a (new) rune that would be most clear, however I can't find that in the rules either as one rule is pointing to another rule which does not seem fully applicable.
So my problem is not interpretation of rules per se, but the understanding of the interaction / applicability of those rules.
We have rule A concerning crafting. And rule B for etching rules which seems to be pretty much in line with rule A, and most importantly also vice versa. However when we get to rule C (transfer of runes) this tells us to use the rules as per A which, when we read A, however does at all seem to apply to the situation as described for C.
"What is the price for transferring runes?" has become a much broader question it would seem. XD
Price in resources, actions, requirements, and general expectations.
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As for battle medicine
Just to prevent this thread from ballooning into another 446 post monstrosity, anyone wishing to debate Battle Medicine should probably move over to the mega thread HERE.
It's one of those discussions where you can't just skim, because people evolve their opinions and evidence is spread throughout (including video links).
Hmm, if I were to run this I'd probably say the cost for the service would be double that to do it yourself, so 20% the price of the rune. Mostly because crafting gets down to half price (from what I can remember), so doubling that cost would seem appropriate and the easiest way to handle it.
Crafting anything costs full price, unless you spend lots of extra time, which still isn't a discount, as you could have been Earning Income instead.
Really, Crafting anything is worse than just buying it, because there's a chance you could fail and get nothing.
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Hmm, if I were to run this I'd probably say the cost for the service would be double that to do it yourself, so 20% the price of the rune. Mostly because crafting gets down to half price (from what I can remember), so doubling that cost would seem appropriate and the easiest way to handle it.Crafting anything costs full price, unless you spend lots of extra time, which still isn't a discount, as you could have been Earning Income instead.
Really, Crafting anything is worse than just buying it, because there's a chance you could fail and get nothing.
And if you Earn Income, there's a chance that you fail and get a negligible amount of money. Besides, there are three factors that may make Crafting an item a better choice than Earning the Income to buy it. First, the DC is determined by the item you are crafting, so there is a possibility of an easier check with a greater chance of a critical success. Second, the progress you make is determined by your level, not the item's nor the settlement. Third, you only make one check, so there is no risk of failing further.
So all in all, if you are level 4, in a level 3 settlement and want a level 2 item, crafting this item will have you make an easier check and "earn" you more money per day than Earn Income, and once you've gotten one success, there's no chance of not making that money. It's not always the right choice, but Crafting is not useless| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Really, Crafting anything is worse than just buying it, because there's a chance you could fail and get nothing.
Depends on accessibility, amount of funds around and how much of a crafting bonus you can swing.
If you only have access to level 8 settlements but a month of free time it is going to be useful to spend that time crafting the level 12 item than accepting that you simply won't have one.
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I don't think this is the universal interpretation for transferring a Rune.
I believe there are a substantial number of people on these boards who interpret the "Transferring Runes" rules as not requiring a formula for the rune being transferred.
"You can transfer runes between one item and another, including a runestone (page 571). This also uses the Craft activity. "And from the craft downtime activity entry
"To Craft an item, you must meet the following requirements:...
-You have the formula for the item; see Getting Formulas below for more information."
From the rune transferal section and the craft activity.
Feel free to cite evidence to the contrary though, I looked into it extensively a while back and couldn't find anything that disagreed with what is pretty clear RAW. (Staying away from "how I think it should work" discussions of course).
Interesting point. Based on Transferring being different from Crafting, I did not think the formula was required but maybe it is.
Really, Crafting anything is worse than just buying it, because there's a chance you could fail and get nothing.Depends on accessibility, amount of funds around and how much of a crafting bonus you can swing.
If you only have access to level 8 settlements but a month of free time it is going to be useful to spend that time crafting the level 12 item than accepting that you simply won't have one.
Unless I'm missing something, the Formula for that Level 12 Item is also Level 12. Were did you get it if you can't buy Level 12 Items?
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Unless I'm missing something, the Formula for that Level 12 Item is also Level 12. Were did you get it if you can't buy Level 12 Items?
The Inventor Feat lets you invent it. You could also have bought it some levels ago at a higher level settlement...formulas are pretty cheap.
Unless I'm missing something, the Formula for that Level 12 Item is also Level 12. Were did you get it if you can't buy Level 12 Items?The Inventor Feat lets you invent it. You could also have bought it some levels ago at a higher level settlement...formulas are pretty cheap.
Formulae can also be treasure or bartered for during the story, et al.
If away from civilization, I'd expect more than few.------
Even though transferring a Rune uses the Craft skill, you are not actually crafting the Rune (which is what the cited rules reference). So I don't think you'd need the formula. There are many real world examples of skilled people (i.e. mechanics, programmers, etc.) working with/installing things they couldn't build themselves.
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Unless I'm missing something, the Formula for that Level 12 Item is also Level 12. Were did you get it if you can't buy Level 12 Items?
You can be rewarded formulae, you can break down existing items to get a formulae and you can get the inventor feat.
Even though transferring a Rune uses the Craft skill, you are not actually crafting the Rune (which is what the cited rules reference). So I don't think you'd need the formula. There are many real world examples of skilled people (i.e. mechanics, programmers, etc.) working with/installing things they couldn't build themselves.
It specifically says craft activity, barring errata activities are clearly defined. Reading it as using the craft skill suggests that there is no DC tied to it and we have literally no rules attached to the rune transfer. RAI is another kettle of fish, and there are heaps of real world examples of skilled individuals being able to create things without formulae :P, game mechanics and abstractions are that imo.
That's also true. Transferring Runes requires absolutely nothing in the way of Formula or Feats, just the Craft skill.
As I said above it specifically states that it uses the craft activity, the craft activity has it listed as its requirement. The only thing that suggests otherwise so far is the argument from above "you aren't creating a new object" but RAW it is in line with how rules like this are usually written. The descriptive text of the activity is a little off in thematics but the functional rules have no contradictions.
I want to again make this very clear, I have no vested interest in it one way or the other RAI. But if RAW is going to be debated I (personally) would like to see a stronger argument to the counter.
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The more I read and come to think of it, using the Craft activity and Crafting do not seem to be the same.
As an example:
...You can transfer runes between one item and another, including a runestone (page 571). This also uses the Craft activity...
...If you have an item, you can try to reverse‑engineer its formula. This uses the Craft activity and takes the same amount of time as creating the item from a formula would...
The more I read and come to think of it, using the Craft activity and Crafting do not seem to be the same.
Activities are clearly defined in the CRB (pg.461). Skill checks with the craft skill are not "Craft Activities" but the Craft Activity from the skill section is the "Craft Activity".
...If you have an item, you can try to reverse‑engineer its formula. This uses the Craft activity and takes the same amount of time as creating the item from a formula would...
Now this is interesting and is the first bit of RAW suggesting ignoring requirements to support the presented RAI imo :). It still quite clearly points to the Craft activity. The question is; because it specifies what you require and can do, does that mean that it is overriding the requirements?, (specific vs general) or does it mean that the lack of specifically mentioning overriding the requirements of the Craft activity was an oversight on the case of the runes?
I have found something that I believe supports my theory of formula requirements however.
You can transfer runes between one item and another, including a runestone (page 571). This also uses the Craft activity.
This flat piece of hard stone is specially prepared for etching a magical fundamental rune or property rune. You can etch only one rune upon a stone. Once the stone is etched, it gains the magic school trait of the rune etched upon it. When a rune is transferred from the runestone to another object, the runestone cracks and is destroyed. The Price listed is for an empty stone; a stone holding a rune adds the Price of the rune.
Etching a rune on an item follows the same process as using the Craft activity to make an item. You must have the formula for the rune, the item you’re adding the rune to must be in your possession throughout the etching process, and you must meet any special Craft Requirements of the rune. The rune has no effect until you complete the Craft activity. You can etch only one rune at a time.
Runestones can have runes transferred to them, they also only mention transferring to them via etching, the etching process is specified above the transfer process in the runes section of the CRB.
While this doesn't outright specify that transferring runes weapon to weapon or armour to armour would work this way. I believe it quite possible that it is if it works this way for runestones.
Let's say the party finds an old artifact w/ a lever that's missing. To craft (via Craft activity) a new lever, the party would need the formula for that artifact or at least for its style of lever, no matter how basic that lever is. (Assuming the lever isn't a macguffin!)
Funnily enough, if the lever's instead broken off, then Repair can replace it (and Untrained!) because that represents damage that can be restored?
How wonkward.
Maybe the Crafting Activity should be split into two separate sections (or even actions); one for creating from scratch with raw materials and one for manipulating/reconfiguring/etc. (yet doing more than repairing) an already created object where the requirements differ (like not needing raw materials nor a formula).
Let's say the party finds an old artifact w/ a lever that's missing. To craft (via Craft activity) a new lever, the party would need the formula for that artifact or at least for its style of lever, no matter how basic that lever is. (Assuming the lever isn't a macguffin!)
Funnily enough, if the lever's instead broken off, then Repair can replace it (and Untrained!) because that represents damage that can be restored?
How wonkward.
And it would take 4 days minimum, or the GM could create a craft skill activity to do the job like the rules suggest with downtime and exploration option for non standard activities for plot progression.
The craft activity seems to be there more to handle mechanics orientated elements and things that tie into combat / item progression and wealth. Rather than say someone who wants to build a house and thus needs 200 formulas because they need to build each element individually.
Reminds me of a sensible rules read to absurdity argument I had with a person who joined in on a 5e game (I ran public teaching games for years), he was so angry that attacks of opportunity worked on leaving threat range that he would say every time "I am running around the foe in circles because I can and the system is so stupid it allows it", first session with him too, first time he had played 5e... the store had a 3 strikes complaint system at the time before 5e organised play became popular... ooof.