Necro Bard Help

[Saramouse]

Hello, So I have a group that is looking to add me to their game. I do not have much details about the group yet but I will give what I can. I have an idea for a character and it sounds like it will fit into the group I just have very minimal knowledge (like an hour of reading the player handbook) of PF2, I'm a 5e player currently with first edition of pathfinder experience.

The group is currently 3 players (I will be the 4th) They have a champion (tank/healer) Wizard (pure nuke) and a ranger (Crossbow snipe). From the sounds of things the Champion pretty much holds the team together in combat. The wizard is still figuring things out. And I have no idea of the ranger's capabilities.

Character Concept: I want a bard that dabbles in necromancy. I do not plan to use undead due to the character having a high amount of respect for the balance of life and death, but that isn't to say my character Won't if things seem dire enough and the use of such a thing will protect life. This is going to be a VERY important focus for the character for me as the character will more often look to put undead to rest seeing them as a imbalance in the cycle of life/death.

Goals for Social: I will most likely become the 'face' for the group Willingly or unwillingly (I am okay with either outcome tbh) I don't plan to push for this role unless I see the group struggling and my character will chime in to 'assist' (and probably take over if it comes to that @.@) the situation and get the ball rolling again. Over all once more I plan to support the group and let them solve things themselves.

Goals for combat: Over all in combat I would like to be there to buff and debuff and help the group with minimal blasting/attacking. For a situation where for whatever reason my character might be alone and under threat (necromancer so lets face it... it's gonna happen even with the BEST of intentions.) For them to manipulate the situation first with words or spells and just walk away. And if that doesn't work well yes I would like some ability to defend myself (again this is the point of undead being a last resort.)

Stat breakdown: feedback on any of this is very welcome :)
Level:7
Race:?
Background:?
Class: Bard
Alignment: LN (Yes oddly enough.)
Deity: I am torn if I even want one to be honest. Most conflict with my characters ideals in small enough ways it kind of ruins the idea. I am open to suggestions/ideas.
Ability scores: Currently none, I'm thinking Cha, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Str from highest to lowest.
Muse: I have no idea what I want here. Since I'm looking to buff and debuff for combat Maestro seems like a great choice, but the flexibility of Polymath also plays nicely into that too.

And that is as far as I've gotten so far. I have 0 idea on spells and spell slots still as I've not even gotten to looking at those. I do know I want the 10th level bard feat HOUSE OF IMAGINARY WALLS. Because I love to be creative with things that let me 'warp' reality like illusions and that sort of thing The group sounds like they play with a Fun > rules as long as you can make it work. So I can see myself having a good chuckle from time to time with this.

But anyways yes please give thoughts and feedback. I know that Bard probably isn't the most optimal class for a necromancer. But we have the 'roles' of tank, heals, nuke caster and hunter (everything dex i assume) taken. So I'm sort of filling a void the group has while making it as strange and fun for myself and them as I can :P

[HumbleGamer]

Yeah, maestro is definitely the real deal.

I suggest you to take shoothe as signature spell, since the champion could need support ( even with a cleric dedication, a champion won't be able to last forever ).

Remember also to take Slow, which is one of the best spell you can get.

As for the rest, everything is fine, but consider to stay close to the champion just to let him trigger his reaction ( since your party is ranged ), especially if he's a paladin.

Or maybe there's already the hunter pet, I don't know.

___

I'd also consider to take enigma muse and level up bardic knowledge ( consider to have high int instead of const ), because it could help you in many situations ( even if your "last" action would probably be a composition ).

I think it's better to have more than 1 character able to roll for different ( and even the same ) knowledge/lore checks.

[rainzax]

Was going to pop in and say "Multiclass into Sorcerer or Oracle" but looking back over the Occult spell list, there are already lots of tools for your concept!

Occult Necromancy 0th through 4th:

0th
Chill Touch

1st
Grim Tendrils
Ray of Enfeeblement
Spirit Link

2nd
Deafness
Death Knell
False Life
Feast of Ashes
Gentle Repose
Ghoulish Cravings
Remove Paralysis
Restoration
Restore Senses
Spectral Hand

3rd
Bind Undead
Blindness
Cup of Dust
Vampiric Touch

4th
Necrotic Radiation
Remove Curse
Spiritual Anamnesis
Talking Corpse

...

If any of these spells are more interesting than others, maybe bring those up, and we can decide how to build your character to best support your casting of them?

[Megistone]

The dead dancing to your music is an amusing concept.

[Temperans]

Regarding the gods, you can say you worship the pantheon and have a lot of respect for Pharasma. You might even get away with worshiping her, just don't create any undead. You can still use necromancy as she is not against that magic, she even has the death domain.

[Saramouse]

Thanks for the replies.

I did plan to take Soothe while I don't think I'll be focused on being the party healer I do understand the importance of having a backup heal (even if it's just for me to be selfish with at times) So that is one spell take up.

I am still trying to grasp how spells work in this. I read mention of you can learn the same spell multiple times? Can anyone break that down for me as to how it works and why you might do that?

Well we have another mage who's a blaster I think for the most part they stick near the champion and I don't want to make a hostile see a nice juicy fireball spot so I'll probably keep a bit of distance from them unless that spot opens up. I am not sure if I'm going to use ranged or melee or even use a weapon at all myself. I know I'll be putting my points into Dex for survivability so any weapons would probably go that way. (tho I heard something about only rogues having Dex damage now?)

As for spells I am not totally going to be using pure Necromancy spells. There are just to many useful spells to focuse into just that. Don't get me wrong there are plenty I like but Most Seem to be either very situational or more damage related.

I think this character will be using spells along the lines of things like:

lvl 1: Command, Fear, Grim Tendrils (I just really like the concept of this one), Phantom Pain, Ray of Enfeeblement, Soothe, Summon Fey, Ventriloquism.

lvl 2: Calm emotions, Darkness, Dispel Magic, Feast of Ashes, Ghoul Cravings, hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Paranoia, Telekinetic Maneuver.

lvl 3: Bind undead, Cup of dust, Enthrall, Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Paralyze, Slow, Vampiric touch.

lvl 4: Blink, Clownish curse, Confusion, Dimension door, Fly, Hallucinatory Terrain. Necrotic Radiation, Phantasmal Killer, Rope Trick, Spiritual Anamnesis, Suggestion, Talking Corpse, Veil.

So as you can see there are a lot of spells I currently like. The goal of this character isn't to really damage but 'mess with reality' So in terms of spells their still a bit of a jack of all trades in that regard.

[Saramouse]

Temperans wrote:

Regarding the gods, you can say you worship the pantheon and have a lot of respect for Pharasma. You might even get away with worshiping her, just don't create any undead. You can still use necromancy as she is not against that magic, she even has the death domain.

Main problem with Pharasma is my character will raise undead in a few situations So this already makes her a BIG no and conflict with my character even if my character did it for the best of intentions.

Situations my character would be willing to raise the dead are . 1. the situation is dire and many lives are at risk. or 2. she has someone who actually willingly agrees to come back from the dead, be it using talk with dead or just really getting invested in a npc enough that they agree to help the character in undeath.

The result of the 1st option. is my character will probably lay those undead to rest once the threat is dealt with due to respect for the departed living.

The 2nd option: My character would keep them around but would treat them as if they were still a living being. This option would be far more rare but I think it would be way more interesting to have undead that my character can relate to in a more deep way than just "You're a tool and what happens to you doesn't matter." After all this is a character that sees the balance of life and death as the Most important thing in their mind.

[Gargs454]

As to spells, as a Bard, when you add a spell to your repertoire, you have to pick which level to add it at (within the confines of the levels you have available). So, Soothe for instance, is a first level spell. If you want to be able to cast it at 2nd level, you have to also add it to your repertoire at 2nd level (when those slots come open).

This, on its face, can be problematic since the Bard typically does not get a whole lot of spells from which to choose and relearning a spell several times can be a bit restrictive. HOWEVA, your signature spells can be heightened automatically, without having to add them to your repertoire again. So when it was suggested to take Soothe as your signature spell the point was to select it as such at 3rd level so that you can always upcast if you need to and you don't lose a spell from your repertoire. Typically, I'm not sure I would otherwise learn other Bard spells at different levels, but you do get one for each level as a signature spell.

I don't think you can add Dex to damage as a Bard (would have to look closer at feats) but a versatile weapon (like a rapier or whip) can still use Dex for attack. You just don't get the bonus to damage (and default back to Str). So still not a huge setback to pump dex offensively, especially since its likely that weapon attacks are going to be a lot less often than spells and compositions.

[Phntm888]

Saramouse wrote:

I am still trying to grasp how spells work in this. I read mention of you can learn the same spell multiple times? Can anyone break that down for me as to how it works and why you might do that?

So, there's a lot of differences in terms of spellcasting in this edition. We'll start with your Spell Repertoire. This is the new "Spells Known" for PF2. You have a number of spells of a given level in your Spell Repertoire equal to the number of spells per day you have of that level. At 1st level, your choice of Muse also gives you an extra 1st level spell. This means, at level 1, your spell repertoire consists of 5 cantrips, 2 1st level Occult spells, and the spell granted by your muse (currently soothe, unseen servant, or true strike). At level 2, you gain an additional 1st level, pick 2 2nd level spells at level 3, and so forth.

Next we'll move on to Heightening Spells. Like in D&D 5E, you can cast a spell from higher level spell slot for greater effect (more damage, additional targets, etc). UNLIKE in D&D 5E, you have to have that spell in your Spell Repertoire at the level. For instance, fear is a level 1 spell that causes the frightened condition. It affects 1 target. It has a Heightened effect increasing the number of targets to 5 when cast out of a 3rd level spell slot. However, in order to cast fear from a level 3 spell slot, you must have fear in your Spell Repertoire as a level 3 spell, not as a level 1 spell. Thus, you could have fear in your spell repertoire twice - once at level 1, to affect a single target, and once at level 3, to affect up to 5 targets.

Since prepared casters (such as Wizards)can just prepare a spell in a higher level slot provided it's in their spellbook, spontaneous casters (like the Bard) get a class feature called Signature Spells. These allow you to select one spell per spell level you are capable of casting that you can cast out of any spell slot. For instance, if you choose soothe as a Signature Spell, you could cast the spell at any spell level you are capable of casting it from for heightened effect. This lets you choose up to 10 of your spells (once you have 10th level spells) that you can cast out of any level spell slot.

The level of spell slot you cast a spell out of has a couple different effects. One, the higher level the spell slot, the harder it is to counteract (dispel or counterspell). Two, the higher level spell slot is important for spells with the Incapacitation trait (like calm emotions).

If a spell has the Incapacitation trait, then it means that a creature of more than twice the spell's level treats their saving throw result as 1 better than they rolled. So, if you cast calm emotions on a level 5 creature using a level 2 spell slot, a Critical Failure on its saving throw would become a regular Failure, a regular Failure becomes a regular Success, and regular Success becomes a Critical Success. In order to fully affect higher level enemies, you would need to cast calm emotions out of a higher level spell slot than 2nd level. Fortunately, you can have calm emotions in your Spell Repertoire at a higher level than 2 if you choose, but it takes the place of a spell of that level in your Spell Repertoire.

Looking at the number of spells you want, I think the best muse choice for you would be Polymath, then take the Esoteric Polymath feat at level 2 to either add a spell to your spell repertoire for the day or to make a spell in your spell repertoire into an additional signature spell. All bards get Inspire Courage (which is a fantastic buff at all levels), and you can grab Dirge of Doom at level 6, which buffs your allies and debuffs your enemies at the same time (thanks to how the Frightened condition works), which also makes enemies more susceptible to your spells.

Does that admittedly long wall of text help?

EDIT: I would also like to add that Create Undead (which now includes the old animate dead spell) is a ritual, not a spell, that takes 1 day to cast, and that you can only control up to 4 undead at a time. Also, each Create Undead ritual corresponds to a specific kind of undead, so you would need, say, Create Skeleton to create skeletons, or Create Ghoul to create ghouls.

[Saramouse]

Thank you both very much that actually explains what has seemed like the most difficult part to understand about how the casting works.

[Phntm888]

You're welcome. There's a lot of interlocking parts, and I'm not always the best at explaining things.

[jdripley]

I just want to pop in here and say, please do talk to the existing player who's running a Champion and get player-to-player consensus on how their existing character would handle a necromancer.

I know that there's a mile of difference between a "uses necromancy school spells" necromancer and "raises the dead to unlife" necromancer.

But... if this Champion is a Truth, Justice and the American Way sort of a champion, or even a Judge Dredd type champion, I can see that player being bummed that a necromancer joined the party and now they have to choose between being an accomodating player at the table but putting aside a core character concept, or else sticking to their character's guns (they were there first after all) and being a confrontational player.

I think that there are plenty of ways you can both have fun with your characters, mind you, but I know that I'd appreciate the conversation up front if such divergent characters were to be put together on the same team. Just by example, if you both agree that there could come a time when your characters will find their differences to be too great and it comes to parting ways/combat, that could be a really fun slow-burn sort of story, and so long as you all know that's the story you're telling, and you're OK with the characters not always being best buddies, that would be really awesome.

Just, getting blind-sided by it.. maybe not so much.

[Saramouse]

jdripley wrote:

I just want to pop in here and say, please do talk to the existing player who's running a Champion and get player-to-player consensus on how their existing character would handle a necromancer.

I know that there's a mile of difference between a "uses necromancy school spells" necromancer and "raises the dead to unlife" necromancer.

But... if this Champion is a Truth, Justice and the American Way sort of a champion, or even a Judge Dredd type champion, I can see that player being bummed that a necromancer joined the party and now they have to choose between being an accomodating player at the table but putting aside a core character concept, or else sticking to their character's guns (they were there first after all) and being a confrontational player.

I think that there are plenty of ways you can both have fun with your characters, mind you, but I know that I'd appreciate the conversation up front if such divergent characters were to be put together on the same team. Just by example, if you both agree that there could come a time when your characters will find their differences to be too great and it comes to parting ways/combat, that could be a really fun slow-burn sort of story, and so long as you all know that's the story you're telling, and you're OK with the characters not always being best buddies, that would be really awesome.

Just, getting blind-sided by it.. maybe not so much.

Heh the Champion is the one who is inviting/encouraging me to bring this character into the game.