My players want to research a metamagic feat that will allow them to increase their spells' duration by a step (i.e., from rounds per level to minutes per level). I'm *fairly* certain this metamagic feat doesn't already exist in the Paizo-published rules, so I have a two-part question I'm hoping people can help me with.
1) Does anyone know if this exists as a third party published feat somewhere?
1b) I am familiar with the old 3.5 homebrew Lasting Spell, but it seems to be extremely homebrew and has, well, a rather uncertain provenance.
2) Does anyone know of any spells that do this? For example, a maybe there's a 7th level invisibility spell out there that lasts for 10 minutes per level that implies that it's a 5-level increase move from minutes per level to 10 minutes per level?
My goal here is to try to gather enough sources of material to reconstruct a likely baseline for what this effect should be so that I can give this to the players and also make it as balanced as possible, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks. :)
There's the D&D version of persistent spell which is 24 hour duration on a personal spell for +4 spell levels.
There's a few spells which reduce the duration to 1 round, make the casting time a swift action and which are the same or lower level than the base. True seeing (L5 or so) vs. glimpse of truth (L4) for example.
Protection from evil compared to magic circle against evil: +2 spell levels for +1 step duration (min/level to 10 min/level) and an increased area.
Vanish to invisibility: +1 spell level, +1 step duration (round/level to min/level)
Fly to overland flight: +2 spell level, +2 step duration (min/level to hours/level), slightly reduced effect.
Reach spell increases range by 1 step (touch-close-medium-long) for +1 spell level.
If I had to generalise it I'd say +1 spell level (reach spell replaced enlarge spell), but I'd worry about whether the players just wanted to stack huge numbers of buffs and might not allow this metamagic feat at any cost.
My players want to research a metamagic feat that will allow them to increase their spells' duration by a step (i.e., from rounds per level to minutes per level). I'm *fairly* certain this metamagic feat doesn't already exist in the Paizo-published rules, so I have a two-part question I'm hoping people can help me with.
1) Does anyone know if this exists as a third party published feat somewhere?
1b) I am familiar with the old 3.5 homebrew Lasting Spell, but it seems to be extremely homebrew and has, well, a rather uncertain provenance.2) Does anyone know of any spells that do this? For example, a maybe there's a 7th level invisibility spell out there that lasts for 10 minutes per level that implies that it's a 5-level increase move from minutes per level to 10 minutes per level?
My goal here is to try to gather enough sources of material to reconstruct a likely baseline for what this effect should be so that I can give this to the players and also make it as balanced as possible, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks. :)
1. The only one that comes to mind is the 3.5 feat Persistent Spell it is a 6 level increase but it makes any spell(that meets certain range criteria) last 24 hours. It's such a high increase because it allows spells that are normally rounds per level to become 24 hour spells. It's probably worth noting that in 3.0 it only increased it by 4 levels. But it was changed to be 6 in 3.5.
2. Deeper Darkness is 10 min/level while Darkness is 1 min./level. There may be others but it was the only one I could find.
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If I had to generalise it I'd say +1 spell level
+1 is the cost for Extend Spell, which only doubles the duration. The effect here would a duration that's ten times as long (for rounds -> minutes and for minutes -> 10mins; or a x6 increase for 10mins -> hour). That would completely outclass Extend Spell. Thus, it should be a +2 metamagic feat.
As a +1 feat, it would cost a mere 3k rod to make Barkskin or Heroism last probably the entire adventuring day.
Considering how powerful and widespread Invisibility and Overland Flight are, I'm not sure if they should be used as a blueprint.
Pretty sure I addressed both your first two points there already Derklord.
Yeah, this would definitely completely outclass Extend, so there's no question that it would have to be greater than a +1 spell level.
Great finds so far. Thanks everyone!
Does anyone else know of any other spell chains that use this format?
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Mythic has this.
Enduring Blessing (Su) (Mythic Adventures pg. 36): Whenever you cast a spell with a duration of 10 minutes per level or longer upon one willing target, you can change that spell's duration to 24 hours. If the spell has other duration conditions, those still apply (for example, the duration of stoneskin changes to 24 hours or until discharged). A creature can't be subject to more than one spell affected by this ability at a time; if another is cast upon the creature, the first one ends. You can select this ability a second time at 6th tier or higher. The second time you select it, you can use it on spells with a duration of 1 minute per level or longer
Anyway doing this with metamagic is bonkers and over powered. the Permenancy spell is here for that.
@GeneticDrift Thanks for the input. Consider me caveat emptored. I know that potentially turning any buff into a day-long affair is a powerful thing; that's why I'm doing research into its potential cost before going off half-cocked and all. Honestly, 7 spell levels and a feat is way more restrictive than permanency, so I don't really get your stance on "this is bonkers, use permanency instead." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@ Loren Pechtel
The concept of breaking down the increase as a flat multiplier is interesting, but I was thinking more in terms of applicability than in terms of pure math.
The increase from rounds to minutes is at best quality of life. It might kick in for really long fights, but won't often be terribly useful for seeing multiple fights. It might see multiple short scenes when roleplaying or when exploring, but that's about it.
(Note, I use a homebrew system that requires resting for a few minutes for hit points after fights, so it's harder for players to charge through multiple fights with minute/level buffs, since that's the only healing)
The increase from minutes to tens of minutes is where a buff starts to last for multiple combats, so this one is going to see the most use.
The increase from tens of minutes to hours is where a buff can potentially last all day at higher levels, and where a buff can be used preemptively - that is, for wilderness encounters, when the player is ambushed, any time there's an unexpected encounter, etc. This one has the most exploitability and has to be watched.
The increase from hours to days starts to allow spell slots to recover, so this might just be too much.
In light of those considerations, I think what I'm going to try out a scaling level cost based upon which step is used, as seen below.
Rounds to minutes: +2 levels
Minutes to tens of minutes: +4 levels
Tens of minutes to hours: +6 levels
Hours to days: +8 levels
The thing I always try to keep in mind is that, yes, balance is important, but everyone having fun is important, too, and if there's one thing players love, it's feeling powerful.
A +4 spell level increase for rounds to minutes will let players cast lower level buff spells for longer periods as a higher level spell without it being an all-day affair (invisibility would be a 6th level spell, as would stat spells; good hope would be a 7th level spell). Making the stronger spells that start at a round per level into ten minute per level spells would cost a cumulative 6 levels, meaning anything that starts at 3rd becomes a 9th level spell (haste), and anything above that isn't feasible (divine power, divine fervor, et cetera).
Making a spell last hours won't be possible unless it's already a tens of minutes per level spell and under fourth level, so stuff like disguise self, which is good, because I can see that being fun, and heroism, which, honestly, I'm fine with as a 9th level spell.
Turning a spell into a days/level spell wouldn't be possible unless it is a 1st level spell or lower and already an hour per level, so at this point, this is just spending spell slots now to save them later, so I don't think I like this one and I think I'll get rid of it.
Anyway, thoughts on the whole?
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There is a bloodline power related to it, 3rd level of shapechanger.
Since you can use it only on transmutation spells and only once a day, Paizo seems to see it as a powerful ability. And I guess they already considered such a metamagic feat - if they did, they decided against it, likely because a few applications were too bonkers.
In 3.0 D&D, which Pathfinder is based on, a lot of the spells had an hour per level duration. This was agreed upon by many to be way too powerful and so a lot of the durations got cut to what we have now from 3.5. So, you won’t find many designers trying to bring that back.
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@GeneticDrift Thanks for the input. Consider me caveat emptored. I know that potentially turning any buff into a day-long affair is a powerful thing; that's why I'm doing research into its potential cost before going off half-cocked and all. Honestly, 7 spell levels and a feat is way more restrictive than permanency, so I don't really get your stance on "this is bonkers, use permanency instead." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@ Loren Pechtel
The concept of breaking down the increase as a flat multiplier is interesting, but I was thinking more in terms of applicability than in terms of pure math.The increase from rounds to minutes is at best quality of life. It might kick in for really long fights, but won't often be terribly useful for seeing multiple fights. It might see multiple short scenes when roleplaying or when exploring, but that's about it.
(Note, I use a homebrew system that requires resting for a few minutes for hit points after fights, so it's harder for players to charge through multiple fights with minute/level buffs, since that's the only healing)The increase from minutes to tens of minutes is where a buff starts to last for multiple combats, so this one is going to see the most use.
The increase from tens of minutes to hours is where a buff can potentially last all day at higher levels, and where a buff can be used preemptively - that is, for wilderness encounters, when the player is ambushed, any time there's an unexpected encounter, etc. This one has the most exploitability and has to be watched.
The increase from hours to days starts to allow spell slots to recover, so this might just be too much.
In light of those considerations, I think what I'm going to try out a scaling level cost based upon which step is used, as seen below.
Rounds to minutes: +2 levels
Minutes to tens of minutes: +4 levels
Tens of minutes to hours: +6 levels
Hours to days: +8 levelsThe thing I always try to keep in mind is that,...
Permanency is limited to specific spells and is dispel-able which is why I like it over a single meta magic feat that Effectively doubles or triples the spell slots of your casters.
There are so many variables but it basically is giving extra spell slots per day and extra action economy. Even first level spells can be concerning. Charm person for days seems like it should be expensive but vanish is just a weaker invisibility, the improved invisibility spell actually goes back to rounds and invisibility sphere Is back to minutes. Each improvement is probably better balanced as a new spell. Idk, I have a small axe to grind with the power level of casters.
Maybe multiple feats for each spell school/spell level/duration type or even a feat per spell.
Back in ADND 2nd Ed, there was a Dragon Magazine article: The Laws of Spell Design. This was for researching spells. It felt that the OP's desire is a +1 level increase for a researched spell.
/cevah