I'm curious about this situation.
Party Wizard identifies the spell being cast as "Bless".
Does an Oracle know every single spell on her spell list?
So, if the Wizard identifies the spell and just tells me "it's Bless", do I know the effects as long as it's on my spell list?
How can spellcasters tell this information in combat if one of them didn't identify the spell?
Logically, you wouldn't know unless you know.
That sounds moronic, but I think it's actually fairly accurate.
Hearing the name of the spell doesn't automatically give you the knowledge of what that spell entails.
If the Wizard says that he seen someone cast Weird, you don't know what that means unless you have access to the same magic (it's a spell known to you), or it's effects have been explained/witnessed/experienced by you before.
Some spells may need less explanation than others... Fireball is both the name of the spell and an excellent descriptor of the spell's effects.
But having someone identify the spell as Fireball and telling you what it is doesn't automatically make you knowledgeable of the Fireball spell's details (range, radius, caster level, school, etc).
And if you already know the spell, then you probably identified it yourself, and can tell the Wizard thank you for observing the obvious.
On the other hand, even if the Oracle doesn't have Bless as one of their spells known they can still use a wand of Bless without rolling anything. How does that factor in?
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On the other hand, even if the Oracle doesn't have Bless as one of their spells known they can still use a wand of Bless without rolling anything. How does that factor in?
I can use a radio, I know even some of the principles that make it to work, but I don't really know how it works.
A wand requires you to have minimal knowledge of how it works (i.e. you should have the spell on your spell list). I suppose that while you active the spell you get some information on how it should be used, be it a glowing aura that shows the area of effect, some targeting aid, or whatever.
After all, I really doubt that most wizards can eyeball the exact distance to a target for a fireball (40'+40'/level range). Or are they capable to determine where they should place their Haste to affect all their friends when doing so from far enough or they are in the middle of the group with friends behind and ahead.
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Returning to Letric question, if the spell name is not enough to give a clear idea of what it does (i. e. Fireball) or was often used, generally I would require a spellcraft check for people to know what it does.
After some time adventuring together I have no problem if the monk without levels in spellcraft asks to get Mage armor or Barkskin, but I have a problem if he asks for spell he has never seen used simply because the player has seen them in some Paizo product.
Personally I like how Pathfinder 2nd ed. list a rarity for spells. To know spells that are bread and butter for adventurers cure spells, fireball, etc. a DC 5 spellcraft check or at worst DC is enough to have a layman knowledge of them and would allow untrained checks, beyond that it is specialized knowledge (I know, spellcraft isn't a Knowledge skill, but I would treat it as one for that).
On the other hand, even if the Oracle doesn't have Bless as one of their spells known they can still use a wand of Bless without rolling anything. How does that factor in?
I'm mostly curious because I can cast anything from the Cleric spell list, be it a scroll or wand.
Does this mean that even with bought scrolls I'm supposed to use Read Magic? From the rulesTo have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If that is the case, it means that Read Magic is a must for every single spellcaster.
Look at what wands (spell trigger section) says:
The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it.
How does a Paladin do that? They don't have Read Magic, they don't have Spellcraft.
Does that mean that the name of the spell is enough, then it also should be when talking about spells, either in Combat or outside.
To me when you identify the spell you have an idea about what the spell does. The name of the spell by itself is not really going to do anything for the oracle. The name of a spell is a game construct that allows the game to be played. Each spell probably has dozens of names. Think about the sheer number of languages in the game. Each race has its own language and many human regions have their own. That is without even including languages from other plans and forgot languages. Spells could even have different names in the same language depending on the region or even religion.
If the wizard identifies the spell and wants to tell the oracle I would treat that as a aid other on spell craft. The oracle can make a spell craft roll at +2 to figure out what the spell is.
As to using wand and scrolls, spellcraft is a class skill to all spell casters including paladins and rangers. If the character does not put any ranks in into it, it may make using some magic items difficult.
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On the other hand, even if the Oracle doesn't have Bless as one of their spells known they can still use a wand of Bless without rolling anything. How does that factor in?I'm mostly curious because I can cast anything from the Cleric spell list, be it a scroll or wand.
Does this mean that even with bought scrolls I'm supposed to use Read Magic? From the rules
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If that is the case, it means that Read Magic is a must for every single spellcaster.
Look at what wands (spell trigger section) says:
The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it.
How does a Paladin do that? They don't have Read Magic, they don't have Spellcraft.
Does that mean that the name of the spell is enough, then it also should be when talking about spells, either in Combat or outside.
So the only section that seems to require read magic is:
Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.
First Read magic is only the more common option for deciphering, spellcraft can be used instead. If we say assume a Paladin never bothered to put any points in spellcraft then they would not be able to decipher a scroll, and rules as written they would never be able to cast from a scroll.
However I don't think I've ever played at a table where a GM was that strict. As an unwritten rule, as long as someone can decipher the scroll they can then decipher the scroll with someone else so that person can use it. This is likely exclusively the method when buying a scroll, the seller would decipher it for the person if required. I've NEVER had a GM request a decipher scroll check or make someone cast read magic on a scroll they have purchased.
Since you can decipher a scroll in advance it does not take that much for a paladin to use scrolls. There is also no reason you cannot take 20 while trying to decipher a scroll. That means that a paladin who has not dumped INT can decipher any paladins scroll by putting a single point into spell craft.
Reading the description of spellcraft the first thing it states is that you are skilled at the art of casting spells. While technically a paladin can still cast spells without taking spellcraft this seems to me to be kind of cheesy. This to me is pretty much the same thing as a cleric not putting points into knowledge religion. If a spell casting paladin cannot spare even a single skill point for spellcraft that is their own choice and I have no sympathy for their wining.
Well, I don't usually put points into spellcraft unless I'm a wizard.
I find myself failing the roll most of the times, unless I have an INT bonus.
I will try to remember if I ever saw a Paladin with ranks in Spellcraft lol.
But good analysis!
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Well, I don't usually put points into spellcraft unless I'm a wizard.
I find myself failing the roll most of the times, unless I have an INT bonus.I will try to remember if I ever saw a Paladin with ranks in Spellcraft lol.
But good analysis!
The one in my party had spellcraft and craft wand. Plus plenty of UMD.
That way he was getting Wands of shield with a CL of 2 for a low price (plus he made all our wands of CLW).A different party where we hadn't the time to craft and the paladin was a different player, he hadn't spellcraft.
It depends on a lot of factors.
I'm curious about this situation.
Party Wizard identifies the spell being cast as "Bless".Does an Oracle know every single spell on her spell list?
So, if the Wizard identifies the spell and just tells me "it's Bless", do I know the effects as long as it's on my spell list?
How can spellcasters tell this information in combat if one of them didn't identify the spell?
I think it really depends on your table. I assume that when you correctly identify a spell then you know what the spell does. That doesn't mean you know what the creature casting the spell calls it.
In games that I've played it's usually something along these lines.
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GM: the BBEG casts a spell, anyone who wants to can make a spellcraft check to identify it.
<players roll and only 1 player makes the DC>
GM: The BBEG just cast Hel'jibub's Windfire. You can check the details if you want in the PHB.
Player: Ok cool! That spell does fire damage to anyone it doesn't charm.
GM: Yep, that's the one. Do you announce this information to the rest of your party?
Player: Yeah I do.
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At this point since the player took the time to announce what was happening, the other players/characters also know what the spell does. It doesn't matter if this spell does or doesn't exist on anyone's spell list nor have I ever seen a DM require a knowledge check for another player to know what spell is being described. IMO forcing such a check seems punitive unless the character is intentionally being cryptic with their description. Even then by RAW it should be a bluff check since that's the skill used to pass secret messages.
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At this point since the player took the time to announce what was happening, the other players/characters also know what the spell does. It doesn't matter if this spell does or doesn't exist on anyone's spell list nor have I ever seen a DM require a knowledge check for another player to know what spell is being described. IMO forcing such a check seems punitive unless the character is intentionally being cryptic with their description. Even then by RAW it should be a bluff check since that's the skill used to pass secret messages.
"It is a spell that charm people and if they resist burn them!" is fully acceptable when it is uttered by the guy that did his spellcraft check.
After that, if the other characters look with suspicion the guys that weren't burned it is again fully acceptable.It is different when the utterance is: "It is a curse spell, it lasts 5 rounds and it becomes progressively worse, giving you penalities to hit and the sickened condition, but if you curse in Aklo while standing on a foot you can lessen the consequences. If you do three gyrations counterclockwise while giving the finger it is dispelled." isn't as those aren't a few words uttered while fighting.
What I mean is that it is one thing when the guy identifying it speak a few words, why different when it gives a complete description of a complex spell in 6 seconds while fighting.
What I mean is that it is one thing when the guy identifying it speak a few words, why different when it gives a complete description of a complex spell in 6 seconds while fighting.
Certainly, it's the DM's call of how much information can be conveyed as a free action.
I don't remember if it was a houserule or something someone found but I remember at one point, in order to cut down on in combat stategizing, we played it where a character could only say so many words as a free action (I want to say it was 6). If you wanted to say more than that you either had to wait for the following round or spend a move action.
Unfortunately, how complex a spell is (in terms of describing it) isn't necessarily related to how high level it is.
The 9th level spell Crushing hand is pretty self explanatory. "Summons a hand that crushes things". Where as the 2nd level spell Curse Terrian, Lesser. Can't even be properly understood by a player trying to cast the spell (much less a character identifying it) without following multiple references and looking at several different sections of rules text. Even once you know what it does at best it'll take you a few sentences to explain it to someone else in a way that's meaningful. Especially, if you don't want them to get it confused with the 9th level spell Cursed Earth, which is quite different.
So, sure I agree. The DM is well within their right to limit how much information can be conveyed before it starts costing an action. This should be true of knowledge in general regardless if it's gained from a spellcraft check, a knowledge check or even just a planned course of action.