Per barbarian rage: "A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted..."
Characters that take damage from cold/heat/starvation and thirst are fatigued.
So...a barbarian who isn't perfectly comfortable in terms of the temperature or his food supply can't rage?
For my survivalist game (and probably for my games in general from here on out, I've ruled that barbarians do not count these specific sources of fatigue as prohibitive in terms of rage. Coming out of a rage or being targeted by a spell or something, sure. But the environments in which most barbarians are said to hail from canceling their greatest strength just feels...wrong. The barbarian endures. That's their thing.
Now, forced marches and such are another matter. Not sure how I stand on that one. Probably leaning towards letting that be ignored as well, but it's come up once or twice in my last dozen games, tops.
Just wondering what thoughts others have had on this.
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I think you are much too forgiving, honestly.
Barbarians are expected to have high enough Constitution to make the Fortitude saves associated with the lowly things that inconvenience peasants.
And, if you come from such an environment... you probably know to wear the proper gear associated with it... outfits and such.
Perhaps a given barbarian can ignore the condition of their origin for purposes of the environmental fatigue? Make it part of the backstory, i.e. this barbarian hails from the tribes of the far north and ignores the environmental fatigue conditions of extreme cold. Rinse and repeat for a given environment that has a fatigue that applies. They have to completely come from only one region, if they split their time, it does not work for either environment, so no advantage. If they do not want to come from an extreme environment, they have no special protections from any extreme environments, no advantage.
EDIT: thought of this as I hit the submit button, but perhaps another solution is that it costs more than a single round of rage if they suffer from fatigue or exhaustion, thus they burn through their rounds faster? One extra per condition severity.
Or combine the two?
I would go with they can still enter the rage once per day or so based on a CON check. The cannot enter a new rage is only meant for after a rage has ended and they have not rested to recover. Greater Rage allows them if Fatigued, but not exhausted.
So for me a CON save to enter the first one and then follow the rules until they have time to recover. If they miss the save they simple could not over come the physical condition they are in to allow it.
The real question then is what interval should be set until they can try again if they miss their save?
VoodistMonk wrote: I think you are much too forgiving, honestly. Traveling across the sea-ice means DC25 Survival checks. Even with an extra 2 skill points/level than a normal barbarian, that's still a hard check. And food is scarce to begin with.
And then the cold. Assuming 12 hours of walking, 8 of resting and 4 of making/breaking camp, hunting and seeking shelter, that's DC15-27, versus a +17, assuming lvl4, Endurance and Con16. So, in that extremely generous scenario, there's a 45% chance the barbarian can't rage after they set up camp.
Thedmstrikes wrote: Perhaps a given barbarian can ignore the condition of their origin for purposes of the environmental fatigue? That seems legit.
GotAFarmYet? wrote: I would go with they can still enter the rage once per day or so based on a CON check. The cannot enter a new rage is only meant for after a rage has ended and they have not rested to recover. Greater Rage allows them if Fatigued, but not exhausted. Why once per day? There's no other daily limit on how many times you can rage, besides rounds.
And a Con check feels arbitrary.
And the "cannot enter a rage" limitation isn't "only meant" for anything beyond what the rules say. If you are fatigued, you can't rage.
Also, pretty sure it's Tireless Rage that lets you do that.
Quixote wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: I think you are much too forgiving, honestly. Traveling across the sea-ice means DC25 Survival checks. Even with an extra 2 skill points/level than a normal barbarian, that's still a hard check. And food is scarce to begin with.
And then the cold. Assuming 12 hours of walking, 8 of resting and 4 of making/breaking camp, hunting and seeking shelter, that's DC15-27, versus a +17, assuming lvl4, Endurance and Con16. So, in that extremely generous scenario, there's a 45% chance the barbarian can't rage after they set up camp. What rules are you using for cold weather? Survival is normally only good for finding food, getting a small bonus to Fortitude, and tracking. The suggested DC is 15 or less for non-tracking uses.
Also dealing with Extreme Cold only mentions Fortitude checks, modified +2 or +4 for survival checks. Mainly to deal with extreme cold you'll need proper gear, shelter and quite frankly magic.
Quixote wrote: Thedmstrikes wrote: Perhaps a given barbarian can ignore the condition of their origin for purposes of the environmental fatigue? That seems legit. I do like this answer as well
Quixote wrote: Why once per day? There's no other daily limit on how many times you can rage, besides rounds.
And a Con check feels arbitrary.
And the "cannot enter a rage" limitation isn't "only meant" for anything beyond what the rules say. If you are fatigued, you can't rage.
Also, pretty sure it's Tireless Rage that lets you do that.
No the CON check can be quite useful as you can apply a higher DC during the later part of the day compared to the earlier one. Basically imposing a harder time to get into a rage as time goes on and they begin to tire from travel. Longer rest stops can help lower the DC and once they have raged a higher value.
Yes it is a moving target, but based settable on conditions.
You raged and have not rested +4
you spent 4 hours walking no break +2
you missed your last survival check +1 per missed in a row
etc
lots of ways you can do this, this one just adds a random element that can stress the players a bit. It can also allow them to Role play some teasing the character that can not rage in the snow.
You will have to decide what will add a random and maybe fun element vs what will be tedious slow play to much. It will also be harder to balance the battles if you cannot plan on them being in a rage or not. If they miss a roll in a time of need and the party dies so does the adventure
Meirril wrote: What rules are you using for cold weather? Survival is normally only good for finding food, getting a small bonus to Fortitude, and tracking. The suggested DC is 15 or less for non-tracking uses. The ones in the core book? DC15+1/previous save to resist nonlethal damage and fatigue.
The DC25 Survival is to find food on the ice. 25 for the sea ice, 18 for the tundra, 16 for the forest. The last two go down to 16 and 14 in the warmer seasons. --there's not a ton of established rules out there that I've seen, so I needed to fill in some gaps. A big one was, if you can go up to three days without food before making a roll to resist starvation effects...when do you count those three days? In a row, so you really only need 1 day's worth of food per 4 days? That seems...wrong. I went with: you can go without for up to three days in every 10. Not super realistic, but it's provide enough grit to satisfy.
Meirril wrote: Mainly to deal with extreme cold you'll need proper gear, shelter and quite frankly magic. Plenty of tribes live in those areas throughout the winter. The players have equipment, they can find and make shelter, and they have a little magic.
It is not that difficult to get even first level barbarians fortitude save high enough to deal with this. First of all a cold weather outfit gives a +5 circumstance bonus to fortitude save from cold weather. A barbarian with a 12 WIS and a single point in survival can take 10 to get a +2 fortitude save vs sever weather, that same roll can also allow them to find enough food so starvation is not a problem. There are also several feats and traits that can give bonuses to the fortitude save.
By my calculation a first level barbarian can get a +17 bonus to his fortitude saves vs cold. This assumes a 14 CON, the feat Endurance, the trait Snow Bound, a cold weather outfit and the +2 for the survival skill. The cold weather outfit also means he only has to make a saving throw once per hour. This is also assuming that the conditions qualify as severe cold weather, not simply cold weather.
There are also a couple of barbarian archetypes who can survive even worse. A 3rd level invulnerable rager gets the equivalent to endure elements in one type of weather (hot or cold). That means they can are comfortable at -50 degrees.
Quixote wrote: Meirril wrote: What rules are you using for cold weather? Survival is normally only good for finding food, getting a small bonus to Fortitude, and tracking. The suggested DC is 15 or less for non-tracking uses. The ones in the core book? DC15+1/previous save to resist nonlethal damage and fatigue.
The DC25 Survival is to find food on the ice. 25 for the sea ice, 18 for the tundra, 16 for the forest. The last two go down to 16 and 14 in the warmer seasons. --there's not a ton of established rules out there that I've seen, so I needed to fill in some gaps. A big one was, if you can go up to three days without food before making a roll to resist starvation effects...when do you count those three days? In a row, so you really only need 1 day's worth of food per 4 days? That seems...wrong. I went with: you can go without for up to three days in every 10. Not super realistic, but it's provide enough grit to satisfy.
Can you provide a link to the rules you're referring to? What I can find under Wilderness is very different than what you're saying.
Finding Food and Water wrote: Finding Food and Water
See also: Survival Skill
To find food and water for one person requires a Survival skill check DC 10. Enough food and water can be found for one additional person for every 2 points by which the Survival check result exceeds 10. Source: PCh:HotJ
And there is no listing to modify this check by terrain as far as I can find. It seems like there should be such modifiers, but I can't find them, so I'm wondering what you are using?
Mysterious Stranger wrote: It is not that difficult to get even first level barbarians fortitude save high enough to deal with this... Alright I guess I need to rephrase:
While a barbarian can, with enough specialization and resource allotment, get a save high enough to be more or less safe from the cold, my question is: should they have to?
I think it's safe to assume that, in such wild, inhospitable places, barbarians are more common than fighters. But the barbarian stands to lose a significant source of their potency, where the fighter is at no such risk. It seems like, if you lived out there and wanted to survive, first and foremost, you wouldn't be a dude who has a 5% chance every hour of being way less effective.
Also, depending on the pace the party sets, taking 10 on something as tome-consuming as Survival for foraging and the like is not feasible.
Meirril wrote: Can you provide a link to the rules you're referring to? It's under Cold Weather, or just Cold, in the core book.
Meirril wrote: And there is no listing to modify this check by terrain as far as I can find. It seems like there should be such modifiers, but I can't find them, so I'm wondering what you are using? For that I had to make stuff up.
Quixote wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: It is not that difficult to get even first level barbarians fortitude save high enough to deal with this... Alright I guess I need to rephrase:
While a barbarian can, with enough specialization and resource allotment, get a save high enough to be more or less safe from the cold, my question is: should they have to?
I think it's safe to assume that, in such wild, inhospitable places, barbarians are more common than fighters. But the barbarian stands to lose a significant source of their potency, where the fighter is at no such risk. It seems like, if you lived out there and wanted to survive, first and foremost, you wouldn't be a dude who has a 5% chance every hour of being way less effective.
Also, depending on the pace the party sets, taking 10 on something as tome-consuming as Survival for foraging and the like is not feasible. If it is where they are from then they should get a bonus to the check maybe. If they are 7th level or above would not the DR take care of it they would receive no damage from the environment if it is dealing less than 1 point at a time. So low but consistent damage from cold would not apply.
Answer is Yes,
Eskimos still die from exposure and lack of food. They are less likely to compared to others but it still happens.
Not all barbarians come from cold climates. Why should a barbarian who comes from a tropical jungle be able to ignore cold weather? That makes absolutely no sense. This is exactly the thing that a character should be spending resources to deal with.
If you don’t think they should have to spend a feat create an archetype that gives the barbarians in that part of the world the abilities you think they should have. Maybe trade away Fast Movement for endure elements and trading out trap sense for energy resistance vs cold. That is assuming that you don’t simply have barbarians from that part of the world take the invulnerable rager archetype.
Taking 10 does not take any extra time so there is no reason a barbarian with at least a +5 survival would not take 10.
Maybe something like this.
Wilderness Warrior
Some Barbarians come from extreme terrains and have learned to survive and thrive where others would die from the elements. A Wilderness Warrior has the following class abilities.
Wilderness Stride (EX): At 1st a wilderness warrior choses once Terrain from the ranges favored terrain list. The Wilderness Warrior can move though that terrain at his normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Terrain that has been magically manipulated to impede motion however still affects him. This replaces fast movement.
Extreme Endurance (Ex): At 3rd level, the wilderness warrior is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.
GotAFarmYet? wrote: If it is where they are from then they should get a bonus to the check maybe. If they are 7th level or above would not the DR take care of it they would receive no damage from the environment if it is dealing less than 1 point at a time. So low but consistent damage from cold would not apply. ...cold and hot climates deal 1d6 per hour...
GotAFarmYet? wrote: Eskimos still die from exposure and lack of food. They are less likely to compared to others but it still happens. You're missing the point. I don't care if they take damage. I'm only talking about their ability to rage, how they cannot rage while fatigued, and how cold/hot environments and starvatio/thirst cause fatigue.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Not all barbarians come from cold climates. Why should a barbarian who comes from a tropical jungle be able to ignore cold weather? That makes absolutely no sense. Again: not saying they should be immune. Never said that. I'm saying: fatigue caused by cold/warm environments and starvation/thirst should not prevent rage.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Taking 10 does not take any extra time so there is no reason a barbarian with at least a +5 survival would not take 10. I feel like that's debatable, but I can't recall. At any rate, it does in my games, and taking ten will only get you so far in this setting. But that's my gamr, not the (rather aenimic) existing rules.
It seems like a lot of your issues are due to your own house rules. You did not like that starvation requires 3 consecutive days before it comes into play, so you changed that. You decided to make taking 10 take extra time. You increased the DC for the survival checks to forage for food. None of these are part of a standard Pathfinder game.
I can understand that is due to the type of game you want to run. At this point there is not much point of asking for advice from people.
GotAFarmYet? wrote: If it is where they are from then they should get a bonus to the check maybe. If they are 7th level or above would not the DR take care of it they would receive no damage from the environment if it is dealing less than 1 point at a time. So low but consistent damage from cold would not apply. Quixote wrote: ...cold and hot climates deal 1d6 per hour... Thanks that helps, but as I was saying the DR would affect that and remove that damage. It is damage over time and small enough that the DR would prevent it. So that would eliminate exposure from damaging them and causing additional fatigue. For them it would be just like walking anywhere else.
GotAFarmYet? wrote: Eskimos still die from exposure and lack of food. They are less likely to compared to others but it still happens. Quixote wrote: You're missing the point. I don't care if they take damage. I'm only talking about their ability to rage, how they cannot rage while fatigued, and how cold/hot environments and starvatio/thirst cause fatigue. No I was only pointing out that exposure would be the reason they could not build up enough energy for the rage. The DR would remove environmental issues as could the build, that leaves only starvation and hydration as issues.
Starvation would not be a issue for 3 days, it would not effect them enough until after that. At about the 9 day mark I doubt they would have the energy to make it into a rage. So the 4-8 days would be the required check vs CON to see if they had enough energy to make it into a rage.
Hydration would cause issues after the first day, they should not maintain enough of a focus to even be able to rage and by day 2 stand. Again a CON check to get them by a dehydration issue to allow the rage.
SO I will stay by my statement that a CON check would be enough, as it will qualify if they can physically release enough energy to make it to a RAGE state. Again it will be easier to RAGE in the morning than towards the end of the day. Mostly it will be the dehydration, if they cannot get enough fluids, they will lack energy to move very quickly. You will also have to consider if coming down from a RAGE is amplified if you attain it in this state. Will fatigue be moved to exhausted because of the massive expenditure of energy the RAGE is.
So now back to the original question:
Quixote wrote: Characters that take damage from cold/heat/starvation and thirst are fatigued.
So...a barbarian who isn't perfectly comfortable in terms of the temperature or his food supply can't rage?
I've ruled that barbarians do not count these specific sources of fatigue as prohibitive in terms of rage. Coming out of a rage or being targeted by a spell or something, sure. But the environments in which most barbarians are said to hail from canceling their greatest strength just feels...wrong. The barbarian endures. That's their thing.
First line: Correct, but that is not right away but after a period of time. If they have the proper equipment, Food and Water then it is not a issue. If they don't have the equipment the issue will be in minutes, No water in about a day, and no food about 3 days. This would effect everyone Barbarian, Fighters to the Magic Users, all would become combat ineffective quickly.
Second Line: No not if they are just outside a comfort zone, that would be a Check Roll situation. Once in a starvation, dehydration mode then yes and the other classes should be suffering as well.
Line Three: You just made it all academic at this point as you ruled for your campaign and asked us how we would handle it. This is what I would consider, and handle it. Outside the comfort zone they all would have to make checks to be able to even fight. others also pointed out what they would allow them to do and chose skills Feats or builds to fix the issue. Hope this helps
-GAFY?
Mysterious Stranger wrote: It seems like a lot of your issues are due to your own house rules...At this point there is not much point of asking for advice from people. Starvation is (the smaller) half of the issue. Fatigue from hot and cold is the primary concern, and specifically how it prevents rage.
Houserules aside, I am asking: does it really make sense that barbarians are be affected so negatively by these things, while other classes are not? No other class losses such a significant, iconic portion of their ability and potency when they suffer from these effects. And what's more, it seems reasonable to assume that barbarians would not only not suffer more than other classes, but that they would suffer less.
@GotAFarmYet: the 1d6 damage occurs 1/hour, but it's "all at once" in game terms, so DR wouldn't help. Although what you're saying there makes logical sense, it is not currently the rules.
but if you think a barbarian that cannot rage and a fighter or Ranger or anything else are all equally ineffective because of fatigue, I would love to see how you make that argument. without rage, a barbarian is basically a fighter with a couple more hit points, worse AC and half the Feats.
Yes it does because every martial class has limitations on their effectiveness. A paladin’s smite evil is useless if they are not fighting evil. A ranger who is not fighting his favored enemy is a lot less effective. Even a fighter’s feats can be negated. Most fighter focus on one weapon or at least one type of combat and it is not that hard to render that useless. A melee fighter facing a flying enemy with no means to reach him can still use a bow, but is not nearly as effective. An archer can be almost completely shut down by certain spells. Why should the barbarian be any different?
The barbarian faces the same limitations as the fighter, don't they? I mean, they're probably less specialized overall, but the flying/certain spells situations are equally applicable to the barbarian, no? I mean, touch of fatigue. Calm emotions.
Doesn't it seem weird that a mundane environmental rule can shut down such a huge portion of a class's ability? I mean, it'd be like "in this swamp, fighters have a 5% chance each hour of losing access to their bonus feats."
Can anyone at least see where I'm coming from, or is this just totally crazy to everyone but me?
@GotAFarmYet: the 1d6 damage occurs 1/hour, but it's "all at once" in game terms, so DR wouldn't help. Although what you're saying there makes logical sense, it is not currently the rules.
Lets’ start with this part first. The rules have it as all at once for one reason only, to simplify game play and make it easy to track.
Yes, I know coming from me it sounds weird but that is it. Truthfully and logically it is happening all the time but tracking 0.001 to 0.004 HP of damage every second is harsh on the players. So, in this case a logical application of the rule that DR stops it should be allowed. I would also state that he is properly covered and not exposed. If they gave their cloak to the cleric then the damage applies. DR is a ability he has to help him avoid small amounts of damage so let it do its job. If the Player had come up with this idea and presented it, would you have allowed it as cleaver thinking? Most of your group would probably allow it, I know ours would. They would also secretly hate him, and plot vengeance but that is another story.
Now for the main part:
You have assumed, that Barbarians are all from these types of places. That is incorrect all they are is a person who loves battle more than life. The guy could easily be a city dweller and enforcer for the mob or a gang, A member of the brute squad!
Break it down:
Quixote wrote: Fatigue from hot and cold is the primary concern, and specifically how it prevents rage. I am asking: does it really make sense that barbarians are be affected so negatively by these things, while other classes are not? No other class losses such a significant, iconic portion of their ability and potency when they suffer from these effects. Without rage, a barbarian is basically a fighter with a couple more hit points, worse AC and half the Feats. As you pointed out in the damage applied, its because its in the rules. Now you want a logical approach to why this should not be this way. With the DR stopping the Barbarian from taking damage he already is getting a benefit the other are not. I would also apply a drop in Attribute scores as well, once again the DR preventing it for the Barbarian. So, they would get a temporary loss of one point of DEX per hour and point of STR and CON per two hours hour. They would have to move from shelter to shelter and recover every few hours. Spells, potions whatever can help against this they should be doing and planed. The AS… Group I played with made a reinforced hide and wood shelter that they could lift and move well inside it and only had to look outside for a short period, they took no effects. This also made the Barbarian still effective in the elements for a longer time than others, even without rage.
Quixote wrote: And what's more, it seems reasonable to assume that barbarians would not only not suffer more than other classes, but that they would suffer less. No, it is not reasonable. You haves again an assumption that they are not city folk. There is nothing in the class description that says they are harder to hurt. than others just more violent. Fatigue is the natural enemy to the Class.
Quixote wrote: but if you think a barbarian that cannot rage and a fighter or Ranger or anything else are all equally ineffective because of fatigue, I would love to see how you make that argument. I did, the Barbarian was not taking the damage the others were. The exposer of every hour required a CON check, once failed they could not rage until they recovered in the shelter. He was basically being used as the scout outside usually until he failed the CON check. They would rotate for 15 minutes each to avoid damage. Once recovered he could rage again, and the process repeated itself. We also allowed things like a basic protection spell could be used as protection from cold. While under the spell Cold did not cause fatigue and you got a +2 to you saves as well.
How you want to deal with it is still up to you. I think the simplest solution is still a CON check with a increasing DC every hour vs fatigue. Once Failed he can no longer Rage until he recovers in the shelter. Spells, Items, Feats, Skills, or whatever that resists the cold or heat can allow him to skip the CON check while under those protections.
GotAFarmYet?, I'm sorry, but your posts are long and appear to be rambling and unorganized. I'll try to respond, but it's quickly becoming more work than I want to put into an online forum and is taking more time than I have. Being concise and plain-spoken will help a lot.
-the DR thing is an interesting thought. It requires yet more houserules,and may have other repercussions I'm not seeing yet, but it's at least a solid option.
-barbarians from the wilderness. I have assumed nothing. Show me where I said such. I said "I think it's safe to assume that, in such wild, inhospitable places, barbarians are more common than fighters..." --that's a pretty tentative statement. My point is, the barbarian is often a sort of "wilderness warrior", so it would follow that they wouldn't be specifically vulnerable to the wilderness in a way no other class is.
But even that isn't a major point. The fact that barbarians can, in fact, be from other places doesn't factor into it at all.
-fatigued barbarians being no less effective than other fatigued classes. So...your argument involves your own houserules? Ability damage and checks...I mean, it looks like you just proved my point. it DOES need a fix. Or you don't understand the rules I'm talking about.
Quixote wrote: GotAFarmYet?, I'm sorry, but your posts are long and appear to be rambling and unorganized. I'll try to respond, but it's quickly becoming more work than I want to put into an online forum and is taking more time than I have. Being concise and plain-spoken will help a lot. [Rambling area not important:]
I understand that, and one reason is I have been working 18+ hour days 7 days a week since the middle of March. I started doing this again as believe it or not it reduces stress, but concentration is at a low for me. My work covers equipment from Pregnant women all the way to virus labs, so you get the idea. I will do what I can to be more to the point. Fatigue at this point is personal experience from the environment, ironically. [/end rambling]
Quixote wrote: -fatigued barbarians being no less effective than other fatigued classes. So...your argument involves your own houserules? Ability damage and checks...I mean, it looks like you just proved my point. it DOES need a fix. Or you don't understand the rules I'm talking about. I understand and you are correct the rules you want to help the barbarian do not exist. The rules currently make them useless in extreme environments compared to other classes. However, the rules that are there are designed for simpler record keeping and should not be followed exactly. Hence the DR as a possible solution, or the passing of house rules. The downside to the DR solution is in acids and poisons that do damage over time, it leads to increased effects on the other players with out DR. It led to a house rule about internal damage not being covered by DR for those once passed the skin.
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