Time beacon can make you "Dormammu I've come to bargain" your enemies

[Excaliburrover]

Click bait title, I know, but it's actually sort of accurate.

So, my friend has found this guide that says that Time Beacon let's you repeat your turn till you obtain the outcome you would like.

I always thought it was a single dose of "prince of Persia Sands of time", in the sense that you cast it, do something hazardous and if s&&% hits the fan, you rewind and do something else, or retry.

Reading the spell, I must say that in actuality it isn't specified how many time you can repeat those 2 actions, letting open the chance to go non stop. This means you can try several turns, ideally casting several spells till you get an outcome you like.

This is a "giga buff" to the spell, borderline game-breaking, if that's the case. If you accept this reading, you can play it out in 3 ways:

A) you actually play and roll all the iterations of turns the player wants to do. This incurs in the old "summoner" issue. The turn of a single guy takes forever and other players, GM included, start searching for a gun to shot themselves in the balls. You can solve it with the same means used in the past when a summoner conjured 5 dire tigers for 6 attacks each: you spread the dice rolling amongst all the people at the table. This is the way to play RAW, if that's what is written.

B) you decide to nerf it and house rule a fixed amount of rewinds. Something between 2 and 4.

C) you automatize it. Meaning that the caster choose a follow up spell and then apply the best case scenario to it. In fact, by "brute force approach", "big numbers law" (idk if these are international expressions, in Italy we call it in this way) by trying an endless amount of times you can get the best case scenario. Meaning, for example, a critical max damage Disintegrate. And I didn't even start to think if there is an awful way in which this can break campaign by forcing failures on incapacitation spells. This the Avengers: Endgame approach, so to speak.

Opinions?

[citricking]

It's not intended.

It has no limit RAW, but it was intended to just be once.

I hope they errata it.

[Excaliburrover]

You seem adamatine on this position. Did you read anywhere, from Paizo, that that's the case? You would solve me a big problem

[Ruzza]

I mean, I would cite page 444 of the Core Rulebook under "Ambiguous Rules"

Quote:

Ambiguous Rules

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

"INFINITE OUTCOMES!" seems to me like it might be "too good to be true."

[citricking]

The question was raised in the ArcaneMark discord.

[Ravingdork]

I think it's pretty clear the intent is that you don't get the spell back to cast again. Furthermore, failing the counteract check, or having the GM simply say "nope, the powers acting on you are simply too great" can make it pretty difficult to undo major afflictions.

[mrspaghetti]

"At the end of your turn, you can choose to rewind time back to just after you cast time beacon,..."

Since you rewind to the moment after you have already cast the spell, you obviously don't get the spell back.

[Ravingdork]

Yep, mrspaghetti has the right of it. Even if you prepared it multiple times, you're still limited to three castings in a single round.

Cast it once and you get to reset two actions. Cast it twice and you can reset one action. Cast it three times and you've wasted your whole turn (and three 7th-level spell slots) doing absolutely nothing but playing with your fidget spinner (or other material component of choice).

Seems pretty balanced to me.

[Temperans]

I think the key point here is the trigger stack. Time Beacon last until end of turn and triggers at the end of the turn.

If the trigger happens before the spell ends, then you never reached the end of turn and as such can last indefinetly.

However, if the trigger happens after the spell ends, then you reached the end of turn getting 1 rewind. But then the spell ended.

If both happen simultaneously, than its really up to the GM or Paizo to clarify.

The important part is determining when does the spell end in relation to the trigger.

[Hiruma Kai]

mrspaghetti wrote:

"At the end of your turn, you can choose to rewind time back to just after you cast time beacon,..."

Since you rewind to the moment after you have already cast the spell, you obviously don't get the spell back.

So, right after you cast time beacon, you're under the effects of time beacon, no? I agree the intent is you don't get the spell back, but all effects you're under at the time immediately after casting should still be there, no?

Consider the following situation.

The enemy has put a sickened 1 effect on you and your ally cast Physical Boost on you, which ends at the end of your turn.

Action 1: Cast time beacon.
Rewind point: Just after action 1 you are sickened 1, under the effects of Physical Boost until end of turn, and under the effects of time beacon until end of turn.
Action 2: Fort save to remove sickened, fails.
Action 3: Fort save to remove sickened, succeeds. No longer sickened.
End of turn, choose to rewind, go to rewind point.

Rewind point: You are sickened 1, under the effects of Physical Boost, and under the effects of time beacon until end of turn.

Thats the problem. If you rewind to the point just after time beacon, you are still under the effects of time beacon and haven't expended its use.

Or would you have the character rewind and no longer be sickened nor under the effects of Physical Boost?

Its needs errata to say that you rewind to the point just after you cast the spell, but no longer benefit from it after rewinding. I think that an errata like that was what writer was aiming for, but as written, it certainly can be interpreted the way the Excaliburrover presents it.

[Aratorin]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

mrspaghetti wrote:

"At the end of your turn, you can choose to rewind time back to just after you cast time beacon,..."

Since you rewind to the moment after you have already cast the spell, you obviously don't get the spell back.

So, right after you cast time beacon, you're under the effects of time beacon, no? I agree the intent is you don't get the spell back, but all effects you're under at the time immediately after casting should still be there, no?

Consider the following situation.

The enemy has put a sickened 1 effect on you and your ally cast Physical Boost on you, which ends at the end of your turn.

Action 1: Cast time beacon.
Rewind point: Just after action 1 you are sickened 1, under the effects of Physical Boost until end of turn, and under the effects of time beacon until end of turn.
Action 2: Fort save to remove sickened, fails.
Action 3: Fort save to remove sickened, succeeds. No longer sickened.
End of turn, choose to rewind, go to rewind point.

Rewind point: You are sickened 1, under the effects of Physical Boost, and under the effects of time beacon until end of turn.

Thats the problem. If you rewind to the point just after time beacon, you are still under the effects of time beacon and haven't expended its use.

Or would you have the character rewind and no longer be sickened nor under the effects of Physical Boost?

Its needs errata to say that you rewind to the point just after you cast the spell, but no longer benefit from it after rewinding. I think that an errata like that was what writer was aiming for, but as written, it certainly can be interpreted the way the Excaliburrover presents it.

If you include the rewind as an "effect of your turn", that's not what happens. What actually happens is that the rewind undoes all "effects of your turn" after the Beacon point, which would include the rewind itself. That would simply put you back at the end of your turn, as the effect that rewinded your turn never happened.

[Hiruma Kai]

Aratorin wrote:

If you include the rewind as an "effect of your turn", that's not what happens. What actually happens is that the rewind undoes all "effects of your turn" after the Beacon point, which would include the rewind itself. That would simply put you back at the end of your turn, as the effect that rewinded your turn never happened.

That is also a valid reading, that the spell effectively does nothing, or traps you in an infinite loop forever, preventing the round from proceeding and having the other players complain until you stop being silly. :)

It is mostly a theoretical discussion in any case. Certainly there's confusion about the reading of the spell.

The power level of the spell should be in line with other 7th level spells, like True Target, which provide a couple of re-rolls as opposed to auto-crit fails/successes. As a GM I'd certainly run it as a single rewind, as I'm assuming that was the intent.