The control water spell has no duration. Can I lower or raise water forever? For the duration of my concentration? Instantaneously?
As written, the effect is instantaneous. You can change the nearby water level by 10 feet once per casting.
Yep, no duration is listed and "Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration entry" so it a one shot.
The control water spell has no duration. Can I lower or raise water forever? For the duration of my concentration? Instantaneously?
No, you already found out it has no duration. Concentration [ie sustained] IS a duration. "If the spell’s duration is “sustained,” it lasts until the end of your next turn unless you use a Sustain a Spell action on that turn to extend the duration of that spell."
I don’t disagree with anything stated above, but the spell is confusing and gives no guidance for what happens to that water. Yes it instantly raises or lowers by 10ft in a 50ft area, but then what? Let’s say I cast it on a 5ft wide creek running through a battlefield, the creek was 1 ft deep. Suddenly there is a 50ft square of water 10ft tall? Are there any rules for dealing with that situation? Assuming it’s not on a hill I guess everyone is pushed away from the epicenter rather quickly. I’m not even sure an elephant can resist that much water all at once.
What about if you cast it in a dungeon room? How long does it take that water to rush out the door? It actually seems like it could be an incredibly powerful spell, but is left entirely in the hands of a GM to arbitrate.
It’s less defined than AD&D illusion spells.
Yes it instantly raises or lowers by 10ft in a 50ft area, but then what?
What happens naturally?
Let’s say I cast it on a 5ft wide creek running through a battlefield, the creek was 1 ft deep. Suddenly there is a 50ft square of water 10ft tall?
Yes, for that instant, then there is nothing keeping it in place so it falls down and makes a big splash.
Are there any rules for dealing with that situation?
What rules do you need? That water is wet or gravity is a thing?
Assuming it’s not on a hill I guess everyone is pushed away from the epicenter rather quickly.
It's not a directed blast of water but one that goes in every direction: AT best you might say it could do a shove/trip if you wanted but even that isn't needed.
I’m not even sure an elephant can resist that much water all at once.
It's not ALL hitting the elephant.
It's going at the elephant, the ground, the other side of the creek, to the side of the elephant...What about if you cast it in a dungeon room?
A room that already has a large amount of water on the ground? you get more water in the room...
How long does it take that water to rush out the door?
Do you have a room with water already in it in mind? It normally doesn't matter. Most rooms don't have the large enough body of water in an existing room for it to matter at all. It affects water in the room so if there isn't any water in the room, it doesn't do anything. For instance, a 5' fountain is only going to result in a 5' column of water and that isn't a lot of volume in the long run.
It actually seems like it could be an incredibly powerful spell, but is left entirely in the hands of a GM to arbitrate.
This is a surprise? This IS the 'ask your dm' version of the game... :P
As to incredibly powerful spell, I'd say it's got a good about of power in it's VERY, VERY narrow niche. Water on the map isn't super common from my experience and even when it's there is a small enough feature that it's not super powerful to use this spell. I you find a game where every 10' room has a sturdy door and is covered with water then sure it's pretty strong for that game, though you might want to learn how to breathe underwater or it might be a short lived power move...
As written, the effect is instantaneous. You can change the nearby water level by 10 feet once per casting.
The spell actually has no target though, so it is an assumption that the spell requires water at all, or in what form the water needs to be. It is an evocation spell, not a transmutation. The way it is written it feels like there is a sentence missing somewhere before the description begins. What is "the water" in an area? how much do you need to start?
Then things really get messy.
The area does not specify "up to" anywhere in it, meaning that the caster really could not choose to affect less than a 50ft by 50ft area +/- 10ft of vertical volume. Even if it requires some quantity of water to begin with, there is no clear instruction for what +/- 10ft means within the context of that area.
Every GM basically has to completely redefine this spell for their own table because there is not even a hint about
The spell actually has no target though, so it is an assumption that the spell requires water at all, or in what form the water needs to be.
"By imposing your will upon the water, you can raise or lower the level of water in the chosen area by 10 feet."
Water level definition: ": the surface of still water: such as the level assumed by the surface of a particular body or column of water".
"the height of the surface of water in a lake, river, etc."
merriam-webster dictionary
Water level has a meaning and it's one that applies to an existing body of water.
I don't think still water would be a requirement of the spell, it should definitely be able to work on a river. Probably in a similar fashion to Arwen's spell on the river in the fellowship of the ring movie, but there really is no stats for that.
even if the default assumption is that any body of water can be raised by 10 ft, up to a 50ft by 50ft area, it doesn't really explain how to handle a large mass of water raising up beyond its container. A glass of water would keep the same area as the glass, but 10 ft of water appears above it? thats not going to cause too much problem, but what about if it was a 20ft by 20ft fountain in a 50ft room? the spell is still pretty confusing and not very clear about how to handle these situations. It is also nearly useless for trying to cross a river because the water will just rush back in immediately, and probably more forcefully.
I don't think still water would be a requirement of the spell, it should definitely be able to work on a river. Probably in a similar fashion to Arwen's spell on the river in the fellowship of the ring movie, but there really is no stats for that.
I think you misunderstand: water level is what the base line depth if it was calm: it's not measuring the peaks and lows so it should work fine on turbulent water but it's going to work on the calm water level. IE a river with 15' waves but a water level of 10' is only going to be raised to 20'
even if the default assumption is that any body of water can be raised by 10 ft, up to a 50ft by 50ft area, it doesn't really explain how to handle a large mass of water raising up beyond its container.
It doesn't state any additional affects to it's purely up to the DM is it does anything past what the spell says. Honestly, the falling water can't even get you wet from the rules itself.
A glass of water would keep the same area as the glass, but 10 ft of water appears above it?
I wouldn't count a glass of water as a body of water: however if there was a puddle of water the size of a glass of water, yes it would be that exact size across with only the height changing. Not every body of wate is one the instantly refills itself.
what what about if it was a 20ft by 20ft fountain in a 50ft room?
The exact same thing: a column of water for an instant then it falls doing nothing unless the DM wants to throw you a bone.
the spell is still pretty confusing and not very clear about how to handle these situations. It is also nearly useless for trying to cross a river because the water will just rush back in immediately, and probably more forcefully.
I don't think it's confusing at all: I just think you are overthinkng it and trying to attach logic to the spell instead of just reading the spell as doing just what it says.
As to uses? I think it's mainly for the slow on water creatures. But it would have great affect on a body of water that either doesn't have a source of water to refill it or one that does so slowly. A 50' wide pool with a 10' depth in a cavern in instantly turned into a walk instead of a swim and an almost empty desert cistern can be filled with 10' more water per casting.
So a rather interesting reality bending 5th level spell does nothing just because the spell was not well written/given no explanation for how it should work? That is too bad. I hope it gets an errata because it could be a much more interesting spell with a little more clarity.
Of course it never gets chosen, especially in PF2, no one knows what the spell is intended to be able to do (There are no rules for handling it).
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It makes no sense. For what possible reason would you want to raise or lower water for an instant? The spell is obviously poorly written. I suggest a duration of a minute would be in line with other spells of the type and level.
The spell is broken on a more fundamental level though, which makes it seem like there was no clear intent in the first place on what it was supposed to do.
What on golarion does it mean for this spell to be evocation instead of transmutation?
The definition of Evocation is probably also a little underdeveloped but:
"Evocations capture magical energy and then shape it to harm your foes or protect your allies. Evocation spells often have a trait that comes from the type of damage they deal, such as acid, cold, fire, force, or sonic."
gives no help what so ever in understanding the spell. If anything, the implication seems to be that you are able to spontaneously create water on a much larger scale than create water, so why would there be an assumption that starting from a water level of 0 is a problem for this spell?
Also it seems a stretch to read the level of water in an area as being the same thing as an existing body of water without any direction from the spell in the form of a target.
I don't see how RAW is any more clearly that you require an existing body of water than that you can just instantly fill a 50ft area with 10ft of water, becasue "The Water" could just as easily be talking about atmospheric water, or ground moisture as it is a body of water. The spell does not specify that. It could, but there is no clear logic saying that it has to, without the addition of "Target: A body of water."
Suggesting that a 5th level spell was essentially written to work as a 3rd level spell, but only against one specific type of creature seems like a clear misunderstanding of intention.
As a GM, I would be much more inclined to interpret the spell into usefulness than uselessness. 5th level spells include: creating walls of stone, teleporting vast distances, and summoning a dragon. Filling a 50ft area with water, or creating a 50ft area sink in a large body of water seems much more on balance.
The spell definitely needs a duration. Given that all of the other numbers in the spell are 5 times the base numbers of the PF1 version, I'd run it with a duration of 1 Hour (because 50 minutes is a dumb duration.)
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At the very least you could end a drought, if you had minimal water to begin with. That's pretty significant.
I could see an escort mission where a party escorts a 9th level caster (perhaps feeble) to the drought-ridden outskirts of civilization. Perhaps they find the drought's unnatural, such is the way of adventures.
If the spell can bring the water level up into the air, I'd default to a "Perilous Flash Flood" Hazard, though only lasting until the end of the next round (depending on outflow).
Drowning rules might apply for unusual context, like a prone combatant, though it's doubtful they'd be at risk long enough.
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The spell actually has no target though, so it is an assumption that the spell requires water at all, or in what form the water needs to be. It is an evocation spell, not a transmutation. The way it is written it feels like there is a sentence missing somewhere before the description begins. What is "the water" in an area? how much do you need to start?
Unicore
You look in the wrong place. The CRB is actually quite clever in this respect and pretty clear - just not obvious.
Control water has 2 traits - evocation and water
water (trait) Effects with the water trait either manipulate or conjure water. Those that manipulate water have no effect in an area without water. Creatures with this trait consist primarily of water or have a magical connection to the element.
So a lot of your questions are answered if you look up water [trait]. I'm not saying that it is obvious to look there to figure out how to handle the spell.
But it is either manipulate or conjure - and it clearly isn't conjure - so you manipulate what is there - and can't manipulate what isn't there.
So a rather interesting reality bending 5th level spell does nothing just because the spell was not well written/given no explanation for how it should work?
If nothing else it explicitly slows water creatures. That is of course if you ignore the value of the possibility of creating [or removing] 193,750 gallons of water.
As to the rest, Thod explains it nicely: water spells that manipulate water require water: changing the water level sure sounds like manipulating water. So you need a water level of some sort even if it's .00001" of water: you aren't making water on a sand dune...
I do not want to ignore the possibility of adding 193,750 gallons of water. I want a little more clarity about what adding or subtracting that much water can do, and what limits there are as far as how difficult it is to create or destroy that much water. It seems perfectly reasonable that a 5th level evocation spell could create that much water, regardless of what was there to begin with. Is it harder for an evocation spell to create water than destroy it? Is that explained somewhere in the rules? The title is clearly doing some work, but how much work is fair to assume for it to do?
The problem is that water levels do not raise in a vertical direction only, so there really is an assumption about how much water is necessary to begin and what happens afterwards, especially if the spell is instantaneous. When a river raises 10ft, it a deluge, and there is nothing in the spell that would indicate that the banks of the water would not over flow out to the maximum area of the spell. Plus, if the spell is being cast out of doors and at ground level, unless it is being cast on top of a sand dune, there is water present, certainly within range of the spell, but does it need to be a contiguous body of liquid water? We'd only know that if there was a target.
This is a 5th level spell we are talking about here, its purpose is not to make a splash.
Now, I think adding a duration would be problematic for raising the water level because what would happen when the duration ends? I think there was an intentional permanence to spell as far as its power level, but I think the clarity of the spell as a whole could benefit from a full added sentence before the current spell description giving a sense of what is actually happening when you cast the spell.
Alternatively, if the intention was for it to only work on a targeted body of water, the spell requires an added target section. The description of the spell sounds like it was supposed to have one, hence the language, "The water," but without a clear reference point the sentence "By imposing your will upon the water, you can raise or lower the level of water in the chosen area by 10 feet, " is incredibly unclear about what is being affected.
The consistent use of traits in spells is pretty awful and dangerous thing to read too much into. How does horrid wilting not have the water tag? All that spell does is manipulate water. But even if we do rest that much weight on the trait, there is no reason to believe the spell is not creating water. The pairing of Evocation and an element trait does not indicate that the description of the element trait overrides the description of the Evocation trait. Clearly the spell is an evocation spell because it is creating some quantity of water, but the vague language of how much water is created makes this spell very subject to GM arbitration.
I don't have that big of a problem with that, but clearly, the vast majority of players read the description of the spell and are assuming that it is a massively underwhelming waste of what a 5th level spell can accomplish, that does almost nothing of the cool fantasies that the spell title creates.
It seems reasonable to ask for some further guidance about the intention of this spell and hope for more than an existing body of water extends vertically without horizontal boundaries, or recedes, by exactly 10ft, limited to a maximum by the spell area, and then instantly settles with no guidance for any of what that means. Compared to the specificity added to illusion spells, this version of control water needs a lot of work.
Can anyone imagine a control air, or control fire spell that was a vaguely worded? Control earth is pretty much the wall of stone spell in this context (at the same level) and its specificity is much better and more clearly established.
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The problem is that water levels do not raise in a vertical direction only, so there really is an assumption about how much water is necessary to begin and what happens afterwards, especially if the spell is instantaneous.
Water spells ONLY work on existing water. The spell only raises/lowers existing water AND does so in an instant. As such, it indeed only works in a vertical direction. It can't fill the whole area unless that area started out with water on it and it only overflows the banks the instant after the water falls after the spell is over.
This is a 5th level spell we are talking about here, its purpose is not to make a splash.
One, how many people can drink 193,750 gallons of water? That's in itself is impressive plus it's a 5th level slow on water creatures. The thing is that nothing indicates it's a combat spell unless you're attacking water creatures. Try thinking of it as a utility spell.
Now, I think adding a duration would be problematic for raising the water level because what would happen when the duration ends?
You're left with water at that level... Seems simple. If it's outside confinement, it falls.
Alternatively, if the intention was for it to only work on a targeted body of water, the spell requires an added target section. The description of the spell sounds like it was supposed to have one, hence the language, "The water," but without a clear reference point the sentence "By imposing your will upon the water, you can raise or lower the level of water in the chosen area by 10 feet, " is incredibly unclear about what is being affected.
Unneeded. The water tag is more than enough since you can only manipulate existing water. Or are you trying to say that raising or lowering eater level is somehow not manipulating water? If it was purely creating water, it could just give you squares of water created instead of bothering with altering water level.
GM arbitration.
Areas: "The GM determines any effects to the environment and unattended objects."
Water spells ONLY work on existing water.
This is patently false. The water trait is exactly the same as the fire trait, the air trait and the earth trait. All of them are capable of manipulating or conjuring their element. I understand how it seems like conjuring would imply conjuration school only, but pillar of water, hydraulic push, Hydraulic torrent are all evocation as well, as are almost all element spells that create their element out of nothing.
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I think the issue here is less that the spell is unclear and more with wishful thinking about what people want out of the spell.
There's definitely a lot of GM adjudication to the spell, but isn't that kind of inevitable? The consequences of the spell are going to be inextricably tied to the circumstances in which the spell is cast.
Water spells ONLY work on existing water.This is patently false. The water trait is exactly the same as the fire trait, the air trait and the earth trait. All of them are capable of manipulating or conjuring their element. I understand how it seems like conjuring would imply conjuration school only, but pillar of water, hydraulic push, Hydraulic torrent are all evocation as well, as are almost all element spells that create their element out of nothing.
READ the whole post and trait. I said "The water tag is more than enough since you can only manipulate existing water."
The trait says "Effects with the water trait either manipulate or conjure water. Those that manipulate water have no effect in an area without water."
The spell CLEARLY manipulates water vs simply conjuring it: do you think lowering the water level is in any way conjuring water? Is slowing water creatures conjuring anything? I'm not limiting it because of schools but PURELY on what the spell does: even when it creates water it also manipulates it.
I think the issue here is less that the spell is unclear and more with wishful thinking about what people want out of the spell.
So much this.
There's definitely a lot of GM adjudication to the spell, but isn't that kind of inevitable? The consequences of the spell are going to be inextricably tied to the circumstances in which the spell is cast.
Agreed. It's hard to cover every contingency. Depending in the circumstances it could be as small as a 2" wide 10' tall puddle or a 10'X10'x1" raise to as big as a full 50'x50'x10' one. Then you have to determine the area it's in like a flat plain vs a enclosed room or the bottom of a pit. You could write pages of rules and not cover everything... Not everyone wants to have to figure out the volume of each and every room and body of water someone with the spell might cast the spell in.
Water spells ONLY work on existing water.
CREATE WATER SPELL 1
CONJURATION WATER
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 0 feet
As you cup your hands, water begins to flow forth from them.
You create 2 gallons of water. If no one drinks it, it evaporates
after 1 day.
Water spells ONLY work on existing water.CREATE WATER SPELL 1
CONJURATION WATER
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 0 feet
As you cup your hands, water begins to flow forth from them.
You create 2 gallons of water. If no one drinks it, it evaporates
after 1 day.
The water tag is more than enough since you can only manipulate existing water
Effects with the water trait either manipulate or conjure water. Those that manipulate water have no effect in an area without water.
Like I said to Unicore, please read and digest my whole post...
Water spells ONLY work on existing water.CREATE WATER SPELL 1
CONJURATION WATER
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 0 feet
As you cup your hands, water begins to flow forth from them.
You create 2 gallons of water. If no one drinks it, it evaporates
after 1 day.The water tag is more than enough since you can only manipulate existing waterLike I said to Unicore, please read and digest my whole post...
If it hadn't started with a blatantly false statement, I would have.
That sounds like an attack, but I don't mean it to be. I just didn't see any point in reading further when the initial premise was wrong.
If it hadn't started with a blatantly false statement, I would have.Water spells ONLY work on existing water.CREATE WATER SPELL 1
CONJURATION WATER
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 0 feet
As you cup your hands, water begins to flow forth from them.
You create 2 gallons of water. If no one drinks it, it evaporates
after 1 day.The water tag is more than enough since you can only manipulate existing waterLike I said to Unicore, please read and digest my whole post...
Context. Thod and I had already gone over the points 2 and 3 posts before this: that it was about manipulation.
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Water spells ONLY work on existing water.This is patently false. The water trait is exactly the same as the fire trait, the air trait and the earth trait. All of them are capable of manipulating or conjuring their element. I understand how it seems like conjuring would imply conjuration school only, but pillar of water, hydraulic push, Hydraulic torrent are all evocation as well, as are almost all element spells that create their element out of nothing.
Manipulate or conjure:
By imposing your will upon the water, you can raise or lower the level of water in the chosen area by 10 feet. Water creatures in the area are subjected to the effects of slow.
Imposing your will - manipulate
You call forth a powerful blast of pressurized water that bludgeons the target and knocks it back. Make a ranged spell attack roll.
Calling forth - conjure
You call forth a powerful stream of water ...
Again - conjure
You create a large, self-contained cylinder of still fresh water.
Again - conjure
I'm not seeing any problems in the wording to distinguish which spell is following the manipulate and which follows the conjure aka in which case you need existing water and in which case you need existing water.
I can check earth / air / fire spells if needed.
Lets say it requires a body of water as a target. The spell is still conjuring additional water if you have it raise 10 feet into the air. Why would you assume that it is capable of conjuring 50ft by 50ft by 10ft of water if cast over the middle of a lake, but not over a small puddle? There is absolutely nothing in the spell or the rules that say, if you raise the water level by 10ft, that the water does not fill up the entire area of the spell?
Look at the way the entangle spell handles a very similar situation (also note how it is a transmutation spell because it is transforming and not creating anything)
"Area all squares in a 20-foot-radius burst that contain plants"
If the control water spell had to be cast over squares that contained water, it would have been incredibly easy to say so: "Area squares containing water in a 50ft long by 50ft wide."
Elemental Evocation spells are not limited to only affecting areas that contain those elements, even though all of them have elemental traits.
Nowhere in the control water spell does it even come close to specifying that "the water" could not be ground water or atmospheric water. Evocation spells are absolutely capable of creating elemental matter.
Thod, is the source that you are looking at for this information in english? Because none of the spells I mention use the language of conjuring in how they create elemental effects.
In the end, I am not arguing that spell is supposed to be able to create a 50ftx50ftx10 block of water in an area, I am saying that the rules don't say that you can't, and there is no clarity on what raising the level of water by 10ft means. If you raise the level of water in a river by 10ft, you have something much wider than the original river, unless that river runs through a canyon.
That the spell would do the same, within the confines of the area of the spell is just as plain and logical reading of the spell as any other presented here, but with a significantly different effect.
The spell is still conjuring additional water if you have it raise 10 feet into the air.
How much water does it conjure to lower the water or slow elementals?
Why would you assume that it is capable of conjuring 50ft by 50ft by 10ft of water if cast over the middle of a lake, but not over a small puddle?
Because it's affecting the water level and none exists outside the small puddle. It ONLY affects vertical water levels and moving outside the puddles boundaries is horizontal.
There is absolutely nothing in the spell or the rules that say, if you raise the water level by 10ft, that the water does not fill up the entire area of the spell?
It's quite simple: it's duration is instant and it only affects water level: dry land has NO water level so it's unaffected. There is a fundamental difference between altering water level and a plain old water creation spell: this is altering and not creating.
Look at the way the entangle spell
That spell doesn't have a tag that limits it's manipulations to just plants.
control water spell
"Area 50 feet long by 50 feet wide" + "Those that manipulate water have no effect in an area without water" IS telling you the same thing as what the entangle area does. Area + water trait IS telling you 'Area squares containing water in a 50ft long by 50ft wide.'
Elemental Evocation spells are not limited to only affecting areas that contain those elements, even though all of them have elemental traits.
Ones that manipulate do and this spell undeniably manipulates. For instance Fire says "Those that manipulate fire have no effect in an area without fire."
Nowhere in the control water spell does it even come close to specifying that "the water" could not be ground water or atmospheric water. Evocation spells are absolutely capable of creating elemental matter.
Water level is a dictionary term. Water in the air doesn't have a level and ground water isn't in line of sight and line of effect. And once again, it's a CONTROL spell that clearly manipulates water.
I am saying that the rules don't say that you can't, and there is no clarity on what raising the level of water by 10ft means.
Disagree. there is NO way to look at water level and the water trait and come to the conclusion that is the case.
If you raise the level of water in a river by 10ft, you have something much wider than the original river, unless that river runs through a canyon.
No, you are WRONG. You aren't looking it as happening in an instant: does a fire hose shoot water straight out or spill out to the side? Now think of the water raising infinity faster [instantaneously]. It's not slowing raising but doing so in the blink of an eye. It lasts as long as a fireball explosion or a lightning bolt strike.
Where is it defined how instant magic raises the water level? There is no indication, other than the limit of the area, which does not specify that it does not affect spaces without water, that raising the water level of something would not fill up the full container of space that would be necessary for the water level to rise.
It is clear that the spell is doing both the conjuring and manipulation of water, and no where does it say that a body of water is necessary for the spell to work. Everything else about your interpretation is based on conjecture, which is all anyone has to go by with this spell, which means there really is no raw way to handle what it does.
You keep mentioning "water level" as if that term even appears in the spell, but "level of water" is not the same thing as water level, as you defined it.
Where is it defined how instant magic raises the water level?
Instant Definition: "an infinitesimal space of time" "produced or occurring with or as if with extreme rapidity and ease" [MERRIAM-WEBSTER UNABRIDGED] One moment it's normal level and the next it's the new level. Why do you expect something OTHER than level to be affected in that instant?
There is no indication, other than the limit of the area, which does not specify that it does not affect spaces without water, that raising the water level of something would not fill up the full container of space that would be necessary for the water level to rise.
As said before area + water trait specifies what's affected well enough. If it's as you say, it would fill the entire world with water to the 10' level as it attempted to fill a 50'x50'x10' container when there isn't one. Nothing indicates horizontal movement of water.
It is clear that the spell is doing both the conjuring and manipulation of water
Full stop: once you know it manipulates water you KNOW it can only affect existing water. It's CONTROL water not create water.
no where does it say that a body of water is necessary for the spell to work.
A body of water is required to have a water level: you can't change water level if there isn't a water level. It's like saying that a spell that increases the height of the ground 10' can be cast in mid-air to crush people... :P
Everything else about your interpretation is based on conjecture, which is all anyone has to go by with this spell, which means there really is no raw way to handle what it does.
It's based on what words actually mean and the rules for area, duration and traits. If you have another interpretation that fits all those thing I haven't seen it.
You keep mentioning "water level" as if that term even appears in the spell, but "level of water" is not the same thing as water level, as you defined it.
Yes it is: how do you define the level of the water if not by water level. What do YOU define it as? Try typing level of water into google once... Let me know if any of those entries even hint at anything other than water level. If you can come up with a different definition for level of water, please let me know because I can't think of one.
If you can come up with a different definition for level of water, please let me know because I can't think of one.
Well, this is Pathfinder. The level of water for a Living Waterfall is 5. An Elemental Tsunami is an 11.
(sorry, couldn't resist...)
If you can come up with a different definition for level of water, please let me know because I can't think of one.Well, this is Pathfinder. The level of water for a Living Waterfall is 5. An Elemental Tsunami is an 11.
(sorry, couldn't resist...)
LOL Touche! I buy that definition. ;)
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and there is no clarity on what raising the level of water by 10ft means
I'm still confused by this statement
The ability says that it raises or lowers the level of water in the area by 10 feet.
So you cast the spell, pick an area. Then any body of water in that area is raised by 10 feet or lowered by 10 feet.
That's what the spell says it does so... that's what it does.
It's not just that I don't know how to clarify it more, it's that I don't know which part of that is even supposed to be clarified.
It's just... cast the spell. There's some water in the area. Now it's ten feet higher. Bam. done.
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Oh my... This spell makes you the god of Naval Combat... Imagine 50*50 feet area were most of the enemy fleet is elevated 10 feet at instant speed... the boats are flung into space... :p
Well even falling 10 feet give damage to boat... ;)
Oh my... This spell makes you the god of Naval Combat... Imagine 50*50 feet area were most of the enemy fleet is elevated 10 feet at instant speed... the boats are flung into space... :p
Well even falling 10 feet give damage to boat... ;)
It's even more impressive if the boat has less than 10' to the water line and you drop the area it's in down 10': suddenly you've got water above the deck coming in from all sides. Or worse is you're on a raft or barge...
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It's even more impressive if the boat has less than 10' to the water line and you drop the area it's in down 10': suddenly you've got water above the deck coming in from all sides. Or worse is you're on a raft or barge...
Sorry, since it's instant water has no time to rush in the boat, but when the water go up again instantly you throw them into space same upping the water in the first place... :p
Ok, more seriously, with a duration lowering the water can be very powerful since you can cross river with this (if the duration is sufficient making an army crossing is a HUGE advantage) or as said by Graystone put boats in a pinch... ;)
I really hope there will be a duration in an errata...
Because the rules of a table-top RPG and physics are almost never compatible, I don't think the effects of control water would cause any falls or flings - a ship on the surface of the water would still be on the surface of the water as it lowers 10 feet.
I agree it'd be on the surface but that doesn't take into account the water that wasn't affected: IE you put the edge of the affect next to the boat and you have a 50' long, 10' tall tsunami coming at the boat [assuming open water]. If nothing else, a piloting check adjusted for unfavorable circumstances might be needed. And this is of course a 'what could a DM allow' type debate as the spell itself doesn't add any additional affects.
If for no other reason than that the authors of the game are not physicists and have not otherwise given anyone reason to believe they've studied the appropriate topics and done the appropriate tests and calculations to make the effects (which aren't even detailed) mirror a hypothetical "what if this happened to a real boat?" situation.
And this is why I think they left the spell as it was: just a plain old raise/lower water 10' and Dm can add any extra affect they think seems fair: there are too many variables in play to math it out satisfactorily even if you where inclined to.
Ground water level is a real thing and often it is not more than 10 feet bellow the surface, If the spell requires a body of water to function, and not just the presence of water, which is pretty universal on the material plane, that needs to be made more clear in the spell.
It could easily be done by adding a target, or wording in the area similar to how entangle makes that requirement. Look at the wording from the playtest:
"You can raise or lower the level of water in the chosen area by 10 feet. Water creatures in the area suffer the effects of slow."
The decision was made to add, "By imposing your will upon the water." Perhaps this was done to make it clear that this was a manipulation and not a conjuring of matter, but it was a badly worded attempt to do so. Beyond passively moving the object of the sentence to the front, using an article that implies specificity when no specificity is called out, there is only added confusion.
If the purpose is to show that the spell calls for a specific body of water, and adding a target wasn't possible for some reason, the added material material could much more clearly have been stated as:
"By imposing your will upon a body water, you can raise or lower the level of water in the chosen area by 10 feet. Water creatures in the area are subjected to the effects of slow."
That solution is adding 6 characters where their used to be 3, but it really looks like there is room for it on the page. Even if there wasn't and space was the essential problem,
"You can manipulate a body of water in the chosen area, raising or lowering its level by 10 feet. Water creatures in the area are subjected to the effects of slow"
is still a much cleaner statement of what you seem to believe the spell is capable of doing, and takes up less space than what is currently written.
If the problem of calling out a specific body of water is that the spell can be used to target multiple bodies of water, then it really needs a target line.
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Agree with Unicore: As written, this spell requires house ruling to be anything more than a 5th level Slow spell on water creatures.
Previous versions have affected ship speed, slowing them up a mound of water or speeding them down its slope or trapping them in a whirlpool. They've allowed river crossings or prevented them. It's a situational spell but, opened to the imagination, it could be super cool.
Paizo does not invest in fluff, especially spell descriptions. Without even a basic description of how "instantaneous" water raising or lowering happens, there's nothing to guess the intentions of the P2 version. It needs errata or an open-minded GM with whom to share your vision of the spell. I'm guessing they "hasted" past this one in the conversion (small pun there, but I enjoyed it so ha).
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So if I sit a mug of water on the floor of a small dungeon room (say 20x20 feet with 10 foot high ceiling) and cast this spell upon its contents, what happens?
Do I spill the water? Does it rise out of the mug, then fall back into the mug? Is the room now flooded to the ceiling?
Ground water level is a real thing and often it is not more than 10 feet bellow the surface, If the spell requires a body of water to function, and not just the presence of water, which is pretty universal on the material plane, that needs to be made more clear in the spell.
Line of effect and line of sight render Ground water level a moot point: you can't affect it.
It could easily be done by adding a target, or wording in the area similar to how entangle makes that requirement.
You could make it do ANYTHING you want by changing the wording.
The decision was made to add, "By imposing your will upon the water."
Flavor text...
Perhaps this was done to make it clear that this was a manipulation and not a conjuring of matter, but it was a badly worded attempt to do so.
The other text made it crystal clear it's manipulating: lowering water level can't be conjuring.
I just don't see a need for specific target line: I wouldn't oppose one being added but I wouldn't want that to push back things that truely need errata.
So if I sit a mug of water on the floor of a small dungeon room (say 20x20 feet with 10 foot high ceiling) and cast this spell upon its contents, what happens?
Do I spill the water? Does it rise out of the mug, then fall back into the mug? Is the room now flooded to the ceiling?
You get a column of water that comes out of your mug 10' to the ceiling which then falls... That's it. Now it you had enough waterskins to cover the whole floor in water you could fill the whole room with water.
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Yeah, I'm not sure if you get an instantaneous 10-foot-high, mug-diameter-wide column of water that then splashes down and leaves a big puddle - or a room full of water.
If it's the former (momentary mug-width column of water), then would pouring the mug onto the floor to make a wider puddle first give you lots more water than leaving it in the mug?
If the water is muddy, is the resulting larger amount of water also muddy? It seems odd that this would dilute any contaminants without saying so, but if it doesn't, then you're creating more than just water. What if it's tea? Thick stew? What if it is water that contains a dose of poison? What if it has a suspension of particles of something valuable (stir in some gold dust, maybe)?
Rising out of the mug then falling back in would make it utterly useless, so probably not the intent. Simply "spilling" the water, also useless and therefore unlikely. Last scenario much more likely imo.So if I sit a mug of water on the floor of a small dungeon room (say 20x20 feet with 10 foot high ceiling) and cast this spell upon its contents, what happens?
Do I spill the water? Does it rise out of the mug, then fall back into the mug? Is the room now flooded to the ceiling?
Useless in that context perhaps. I still like the idea of it being situationally powerful, such as when used in the aforementioned sinking of ships.