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How does one gain access to uncommon or rarer of these things?
Your GM says you have access.
Can something like a potion be reverse engineered to gain an uncommon formula?
Yes.
What is the pricing structure of uncommon formulas?
By the book, it's the same as common ones.
How does a character gain access to a ritual? (they're all at least uncommon)
As noted above, the GM says you have access.
In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.
For uncommon elements, a character is meant to be able to have them if there is sufficient in-game reasoning. This is why certain feats provide explicit access to certain uncommon elements. When there isn't an explicit feat to grant access to an uncommon element, it's up to the GM to approve the options (and fill-in any particulars such as if a price of some kind is involved).
For rare elements, those are meant to be available only if the GM has decided to make them available.
As to the question of reverse-engineering an item to get a formula, there's no explicit rules in the book for doing that, and it's also not explicitly impossible, which means it falls into "Only your GM can answer that" territory.
At my table, the answer would likely be "no" - or "not without a lot more effort than you are likely expecting" because I don't want handing out one of something to the party to be the same as giving free access to that thing for the rest of the campaign.
There are explicit rules for reverse engineering.
If you have an item, you can try to reverse‑engineer
its formula. This uses the Craft activity and takes the
same amount of time as creating the item from a formula
would. You must first disassemble the item. After the
base downtime, you attempt a Crafting check against the
same DC it would take to Craft the item. If you succeed,
you Craft the formula at its full Price, and you can keep
working to reduce the Price as normal. If you fail, you’re
left with raw materials and no formula. If you critically
fail, you also waste 10% of the raw materials you’d
normally be able to salvage.
The item’s disassembled parts are worth half its Price
in raw materials and can’t be reassembled unless you
successfully reverse-engineer the formula or acquire the
formula another way. Reassembling the item from the
formula works just like Crafting it from scratch; you use
the disassembled parts as the necessary raw materials.
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[... (snip)]
At my table, the answer would likely be "no" - or "not without a lot more effort than you are likely expecting" because I don't want handing out one of something to the party to be the same as giving free access to that thing for the rest of the campaign.
There are explicit rules for reverse engineering.
If you have an item, you can try to reverse‑engineer
its formula. This uses the Craft activity and takes the
same amount of time as creating the item from a formula
would. You must first disassemble the item. After the
base downtime, you attempt a Crafting check against the
same DC it would take to Craft the item. If you succeed,
you Craft the formula at its full Price, [... (snip)]
It's also good to note that the crafting DC of uncommon and rarer items is higher. (+2 Uncommon, +5 Rare, +10 Unique)
Thanks for the rule reference... it wasn't in the section I thought it would be in, so I missed it.It's in the equipment section where the table is for crafting formulas.It "should" be in one of the two crafting sections of the rules.
Much like how part of the text within the description of padded armor "should" be in an area directly relevant to heavy armor since that's where someone would be looking to answer the question "What do I get when I buy and use heavy armor?"
Organization... kind of becoming a lost art.
I found it by looking in the Crafting Skill and following the page number it gave for Formulas.
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How does one gain access to uncommon or rarer of these things?Ask your GM.
No really, Paizo does not intend there to be a way for a player to point to a rulebook page and demand access.
If your GM doesn't allow it, trust him or her to have a good reason.
And so much more the better. Tyranny of the players was a big thing in 1E. With the volume of content freely accessible the GM couldn’t possibly keep up but many felt a right to demand or presume access to anything as long as it was first party
It happened in my 1E games and I have seen it happen in some actual play podcasts. One of my favourites has been almost completely ruined because the GM appears to have allowed open access and done no review when a bunch of new characters were introduced- resulting in min maxed (or at least very highly optimised) monstrosities
And in my games I have tried to implement a hard copy and pre dating the adventure path only from x point on (anything previously allowed is fine). Let’s just say that suggestion has not been met positively
So having it hard coded into the rules is something I am very much in favour of
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In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.
A correction to this comment I made: There is a way to get access to uncommon spells. Be a cleric of a deity that offers them (or a sorcerer with the Blessed Blood feat). For example, clerics of Nocticula can cast Nondetection.
In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.A correction to this comment I made: There is a way to get access to uncommon spells. Be a cleric of a deity that offers them (or a sorcerer with the Blessed Blood feat). For example, clerics of Nocticula can cast Nondetection.
Dimension Door & Teleport (separately) are available that way.
I think some mind-reading & detect spells too, though it seems only one, though I suppose a party could work together. :)
In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.A correction to this comment I made: There is a way to get access to uncommon spells. Be a cleric of a deity that offers them (or a sorcerer with the Blessed Blood feat). For example, clerics of Nocticula can cast Nondetection.Dimension Door & Teleport (separately) are available that way.
I think some mind-reading & detect spells too, though it seems only one, though I suppose a party could work together. :)Where are you seeing this?
Also, any advice about rituals specifically would be appreciated.
Gods and Magic. Pulura's 6th level Spell is Teleport for example.
In APs at least, the easiest way to get Rituals is from NPCs. In book 1 of AoA for example, there is an enemy Necromancer that obviously has access to the Create Undead Ritual, as she has multiple Undead Minions. So we were able to gain access to it through her Spellbook.
In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.A correction to this comment I made: There is a way to get access to uncommon spells. Be a cleric of a deity that offers them (or a sorcerer with the Blessed Blood feat). For example, clerics of Nocticula can cast Nondetection.Dimension Door & Teleport (separately) are available that way.
I think some mind-reading & detect spells too, though it seems only one, though I suppose a party could work together. :)Where are you seeing this?
Also, any advice about rituals specifically would be appreciated.
The spells are for specific deities in Gods & Magic.
A few spells are available this way, if the deity is available that is.It's like how you can take a common feat or domain to get an Uncommon Focus Spell. You take the (perhaps) Common deity and get access to their spells, which may have an Uncommon one (albeit seldom).
There's no advice to give about rituals except ask your GM.
In standard Golarion, several should be available in APs and Paizo material, though I don't think anything's automatic.
A GM is supposed to make a significant number of the uncommon things that players want access to available, but these should be primarily rewards for succeeding at things or putting in the work unless you have some feat that grants you access.
Players mentioning things like "I am interested in foo" should have something to do with what you find.
Rare stuff should be 100% GM driven though.
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In APs at least, the easiest way to get Rituals is from NPCs. In book 1 of AoA for example, there is an enemy Necromancer that obviously has access to the Create Undead Ritual, as she has multiple Undead Minions. So we were able to gain access to it through her Spellbook.Well, at the risk of breaking the illusion, that was your GM making the generous call of putting the ritual in a receptacle accessible to you.
The NPC stat block doesn't mention any such book. The rituals chapter in the CRB does not mandate that rituals are written down in spellbooks: rituals aren't used only by prepared spellcasters. Indeed you don't have to be a spellcaster at all.
It's like any other spell. If the caster wishes, he or she can teach it to you. But just because you defeat a caster does not necessarily mean you get hold of its spells.
Unless the GM wants you to, that is. Which brings us back to the only real answer :-)
Prepared Arcane Spellcasters have Spellbooks, even if the stat block doesn't mention it.
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Prepared Arcane Spellcasters have Spellbooks, even if the stat block doesn't mention it.When it comes to special knowledge, however, there is nothing which mandates a prepared arcane spellcaster to keep their notes in the same spellbook as their common spells. The knowledge wouldn't stay uncommon/rare if people weren't taking steps to keep it to themselves once they'd learned it, after all.
In regards to what an AP results in the characters played through it gaining, however, I'd say that anything uncommon or rare that isn't specifically mentioned as being present is safe to assume isn't - even if the book doesn't say something like "the baddie stashed their book with this other spell in it the hollow of an oak tree three miles west of town" but just leaves no mention of where the not-common thing is or isn't to be found.
It's far more immersion breaking to believe that someone who has information of a Unique and extremely valuable artifact written down at her house, and casually mentioned it to her idiot assistant, would take such lengths to hide a low level Ritual.
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This kind of reminds me of some of those open world video games where a shopkeeper will have some item for sale, but the item doesn't actually exist anywhere accessible on the map or is inside a box that's impossible to open because someone deemed it imbalanced for you to try to steal it.
I can see why someone would want to do that for mechanical reasons, but I also think it's pretty hard to call it "immersion enhancing."
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If you're running a studious bookkeeper, researcher, and Prepared Necromancer as someone who doesn't write all of her knowledge down, you're just being a jerk DM.Please stop it with the entitled player attitude. In Pathfinder 2, you get exactly what the GM gives you. No more, no less, full stop.
As others keep telling you, just because an NPC is a "prepared" caster does not mean
a) it follows the same rules as player characters
b) or that it keeps its spellbook in a place where PCs can find it
c) or that it didn't memorize any rituals by heart - since rituals don't follow the regular rules for spellcastingIn short, you're caught in an obsolete mindset. Instead you need to learn to trust your GM, Aratorin. Cheers :)
This is my opinion as both a player and a GM. In my EC campaign you better believe that any prepared casters using the Uncommon Spells presented in the campaign will be in their spellbook. Stop with the GM is god and the players are only allowed to have fun if I want them to BS.
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You are right its more fun if those casters have said spells in their books Aratorin. And that GM might be being a Jerk GM, depending on a bunch of context.
But Zapp is also right. PF2 made it explicitly clear that you are only ever allowed to have whatever the GM or rules gives you, when they decide to give it to you.
Granted, it was always possible for GMs to control what you got. But the mindset whent from "this is what exists, the GM decides whether its available to you" to "you only get this, the GM or rules decide whether to give you more".
Yes, altering expectations makes a large difference, even if the net effect comes out the same. That's simply the way our brains are wired.
Ten - five hurts while zero + five feels good, even if the final total of five was kinds predetermined (in the sense of what the GM wanted the final ruleset to be for their campaign).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Zapp is also right. PF2 made it explicitly clear that you are only ever allowed to have whatever the GM or rules gives you, when they decide to give it to you.
I think the DM that's playing a AP cedes a certain amount of that their control to that AP content. They can override what's in that AP, but then we're talking about houseruling new content instead or just running the material as presented.
If the DM doesn't want the players to have content the AP gives, then maybe the AP isn't a match for that DM: IE, if the DM doesn't want players to have a alchemy crossbow, they shouldn't run a game where the bad guys use one. Much the same way, if a DM doesn't want a spell/ritual to fall into a players hands, they shouldn't have bad guys that use it that also should have them in their possession.
The main issue here is a lack of an explanation on how rituals are learned/transferred. This leaves it up to individual DM to apply whatever logic they feel works for them. For some it makes sense spells are written down and for others it's person to person training: It depends if you think of them as treasure to find or instead a reward to earn/pay for.
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Zapp is also right. PF2 made it explicitly clear that you are only ever allowed to have whatever the GM or rules gives you, when they decide to give it to you.I think the DM that's playing a AP cedes a certain amount of that their control to that AP content. They can override what's in that AP, but then we're talking about houseruling new content instead or just running the material as presented.
If the DM doesn't want the players to have content the AP gives, then maybe the AP isn't a match for that DM: IE, if the DM doesn't want players to have a alchemy crossbow, they shouldn't run a game where the bad guys use one. Much the same way, if a DM doesn't want a spell/ritual to fall into a players hands, they shouldn't have bad guys that use it that also should have them in their possession.
The main issue here is a lack of an explanation on how rituals are learned/transferred. This leaves it up to individual DM to apply whatever logic they feel works for them. For some it makes sense spells are written down and for others it's person to person training: It depends if you think of them as treasure to find or instead a reward to earn/pay for.
Exactly. If the enemy uses an Uncommon or Rare Weapon, are you just going to have it disintegrate after the fight so the players can't get it? Of course not. Players would feel cheated and you wouldn't be DM for very long. Just because Spells and Rituals are intangible doesn't mean you should treat them any differently. They are the Weapons of casters.
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In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.
I've always wondered though, how does that interact across party members? Example, my Elf character has access to something uncommon and Elveny and the Dwarf character of the player sitting across the table from me has access to things uncommon and Dwarveny. Can we freely hand each other our racial uncommon gear and just declare we both now have access to uncommon Elveny and Dwarveny things? Are we prevented from accomplishing this, and what would that even look like?
In addition to what Shisumo said, certain common feats will give access to uncommon features. For example, many ancestries have a feat that grants access to that ancestry's uncommon weapons. As far as I know, there's no real method without GM approval to get any uncommon formulas, rituals, or non-focus spells.I've always wondered though, how does that interact across party members? Example, my Elf character has access to something uncommon and Elveny and the Dwarf character of the player sitting across the table from me has access to things uncommon and Dwarveny. Can we freely hand each other our racial uncommon gear and just declare we both now have access to uncommon Elveny and Dwarveny things? Are we prevented from accomplishing this, and what would that even look like?
Or can my circus halfing start passing out throwing knives? Not that there is any explicit way to actual get circus weapons.
I've always wondered though, how does that interact across party members? Example, my Elf character has access to something uncommon and Elveny and the Dwarf character of the player sitting across the table from me has access to things uncommon and Dwarveny. Can we freely hand each other our racial uncommon gear ...
Sure. How would anyone stop that?
...and just declare we both now have access to uncommon Elveny and Dwarveny things? [snip]
No. Getting something is different from Having something.
Just because my uncle hands me an Uzi, doesn't mean I can go to any arms dealer and demand to be sold three more. [fictional example]Just because your elf has a dwarven war axe, doesn't mean the next time he visits a dwarven blacksmith's shop he can buy a cold iron version. That dwarf should be pretty suspicious of your elf, if your dwarfen PC buddy isn't around.
Now if your elf has access to dwarven items due to some feat like adopted ancestry, that same dwarven blacksmith notices that you are 'worthy', and shoould be willing to sell you dwarven items.
Rarity and access aren't just rules. They are also a tool for roleplaying opportunity.
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I've always wondered though, how does that interact across party members? Example, my Elf character has access to something uncommon and Elveny and the Dwarf character of the player sitting across the table from me has access to things uncommon and Dwarveny. Can we freely hand each other our racial uncommon gear ...Sure. How would anyone stop that?
...and just declare we both now have access to uncommon Elveny and Dwarveny things? [snip]No. Getting something is different from Having something.
Just because my uncle hands me an Uzi, doesn't mean I can go to any arms dealer and demand to be sold three more. [fictional example]Just because your elf has a dwarven war axe, doesn't mean the next time he visits a dwarven blacksmith's shop he can buy a cold iron version. That dwarf should be pretty suspicious of your elf, if your dwarfen PC buddy isn't around.
Now if your elf has access to dwarven items due to some feat like adopted ancestry, that same dwarven blacksmith notices that you are 'worthy', and shoould be willing to sell you dwarven items.
Rarity and access aren't just rules. They are also a tool for roleplaying opportunity.
But (keeping the metaphor) you didn't pay for access to the Uzi your uncle gave you any more than you did the three more you want to buy, so how do you have that one? Alternatively, how did the dwarven blacksmith notice you were "worthy" because you had adopted ancestry? In both cases, you're an elf without your dwarf buddy next to you; why are you suspicious one way but not the other?
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(English isn't my primary tongue, so maybe I can't make myself as clear as I think I am)
Do you not see a difference between "I have an Uzi" (from my Uncle) and "I have access to an Uzi" (with this permission slip)?
With adopted ancestry: maybe your elf has a speech pattern like a dwarf, or uses dwarven phrases and expressions. Maybe he has a clan dagger, or a dwarven clan family name. Work something out with your GM.
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I've always wondered though, how does that interact across party members? Example, my Elf character has access to something uncommon and Elveny and the Dwarf character of the player sitting across the table from me has access to things uncommon and Dwarveny. Can we freely hand each other our racial uncommon gear ...Sure. How would anyone stop that?
...and just declare we both now have access to uncommon Elveny and Dwarveny things? [snip]No. Getting something is different from Having something.
Just because my uncle hands me an Uzi, doesn't mean I can go to any arms dealer and demand to be sold three more. [fictional example]Just because your elf has a dwarven war axe, doesn't mean the next time he visits a dwarven blacksmith's shop he can buy a cold iron version. That dwarf should be pretty suspicious of your elf, if your dwarfen PC buddy isn't around.
Now if your elf has access to dwarven items due to some feat like adopted ancestry, that same dwarven blacksmith notices that you are 'worthy', and shoould be willing to sell you dwarven items.
Rarity and access aren't just rules. They are also a tool for roleplaying opportunity.
I don't think that the rarity rules are usually meant to emulate "A dwarf won't sell you something because you're not a dwarf." I think it's more meant to emulate "You're not in a dwarven kingdom, so dwarven weapons aren't common here, but you know where to find them." If you are in a dwarven kingdom, then dwarven weapons are no longer uncommon as long as you're there. Similarly, having access to sawtooth sabers doesn't mean that you can suddenly buy them at the store.
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(English isn't my primary tongue, so maybe I can't make myself as clear as I think I am)
Do you not see a difference between "I have an Uzi" (from my Uncle) and "I have access to an Uzi" (with this permission slip)?
With adopted ancestry: maybe your elf has a speech pattern like a dwarf, or uses dwarven phrases and expressions. Maybe he has a clan dagger, or a dwarven clan family name. Work something out with your GM.
I see them as different; more accurately, I see them as sequential. You MUST have access to a thing before you have the thing. If I'm a Sorcerer, I do not have Blah-uncommon spell as a spell known before I have (through whatever means) access to said spell. If your Uncle hands you an Uzi, you definitionally have access to Uzis.
As for adopted ancestry, explain then what happens if I take the feat, gain the benefit of the feat (by buying uncommon dwarven weapons), and then retrain the feat to something else. And all without souring the business relationships I made with the various dwarf blacksmiths who (through whatever means) held me in high enough regard to sell me uncommon dwarf weapons when they did. How does my retraining of a feat send out a universe-wide mind-wipe that resets their regard for me as a customer?
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I see them as different; more accurately, I see them as sequential. You MUST have access to a thing before you have the thing. If I'm a Sorcerer, I do not have Blah-uncommon spell as a spell known before I have (through whatever means) access to said spell. If your Uncle hands you an Uzi, you definitionally have access to Uzis.
I would say that this is not accurate. If I find a magical weapon in a crypt somewhere that is uncommon or rare, that doesn't mean that I know a guy who could sell me a second one. I have the item. I don't have access to have some way to acquire another like it.
As for adopted ancestry, explain then what happens if I take the feat, gain the benefit of the feat (by buying uncommon dwarven weapons), and then retrain the feat to something else. And all without souring the business relationships I made with the various dwarf blacksmiths who (through whatever means) held me in high enough regard to sell me uncommon dwarf weapons when they did. How does my retraining of a feat send out a universe-wide mind-wipe that resets their regard for me as a customer?
Adopted Ancestry doesn't grant access to Weapons, so it's a moot point.
I see them as different; more accurately, I see them as sequential. You MUST have access to a thing before you have the thing. If I'm a Sorcerer, I do not have Blah-uncommon spell as a spell known before I have (through whatever means) access to said spell. If your Uncle hands you an Uzi, you definitionally have access to Uzis.I would say that this is not accurate. If I find a magical weapon in a crypt somewhere that is uncommon or rare, that doesn't mean that I know a guy who could sell me a second one. I have the item. I don't have access to have some way to acquire another like it.
I'm not the one who wrote access to apply to physical objects (such as spells written down in scrolls or cultural weapons) AND knowable non-physical things (such as spells a sorcerer would be aware of or know) AND to potentially unbalancing game elements.
I don't have these issues with the Advanced Spheres in SoP for a reason.
As for adopted ancestry, explain then what happens if I take the feat, gain the benefit of the feat (by buying uncommon dwarven weapons), and then retrain the feat to something else. And all without souring the business relationships I made with the various dwarf blacksmiths who (through whatever means) held me in high enough regard to sell me uncommon dwarf weapons when they did. How does my retraining of a feat send out a universe-wide mind-wipe that resets their regard for me as a customer?Adopted Ancestry doesn't grant access to Weapons, so it's a moot point.
I was going off of Franz Lunzer's inclusion of Adopted Ancestry as the pertinent feat; so please take me as having been talking about whichever feat instead does grant weapons access.