Not the same thing at all, you can't compare "outsider" and "normal races" in this instance... ;)Stories of fiends becoming good, angels becoming evil, proteans becoming lawful, aeons becoming chaotic, and so on are interesting because they're so unusual and unique. The more these stories are told, the more they erode that uniqueness and become less interesting, I feel.Like how all drow were CG rangers that fled to the surface to escape the anger and hatred of their evil brethren?
...and yes, that must be very hard when all of those evil brethren also became CG rangers that fled to the surface. I guess that just leaves a lot off empty drow cities.
I feel like this can touch on certain similar key touch stones. It is, at its heart, a redemption arc for a character that was born amongst evil. Having that too often can dilute the effect of trying to set up an "evil" race.
Of course, that is only if you are trying to create an "always CE" race in your setting. If you are creating a setting where you are making a Cheliax situation- where those in power are closely tied to evil and encourage various evil practices (slavery, human sacrifice), then it is far easier to pull off redemption, since not ever strata of the society is that invested in such practices, and this is more of a cultural thing than an inherent part of the race.
But yes, Paizo's setting does make that distinction- outsiders are "Always alignment", and almost everything else has cultural issues. This is the kind of decision you have to actively make when establishing a setting where you need easily used "enemy" creatures- to what extent can they be changed, the extent flexibility might cause morality conflicts (too few in a campaign, and it is boring narratively, too many, and the Sarenrae priest spends the first round of every fight doing diplomacy), etc.
When it comes to demons and other fiends... Paizo wanted a tool that gives them the option to keep things simple. There are plenty of races with shades of grey- at times, you want to have an option for black and white that can be the summoned minion of the evil wizard, the hordes that demand warhammer style extermination, or the demon lord that HAS to be stopped.
I think you misread his comment. He's talking about an NPC from the AP that isn't Nocticula.Are you sure she became good? I haven't read Wrath of the Righteous, but Gods & Magic says otherwise, if we're thinking of the same being. Maybe the edition change from 1e to 2e switched her back?It's a process. The 'redeemed' succubus in WotR, for example, starts off that AP as CN and still a demon, her becoming CG and losing her demon (and thus fiend) status is an ongoing plot element in that AP.
The Oath's exception is pretty clearly intended for cases like hers.
So this happened to more than one succubus in this AP? Interesting.
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So this happened to more than one succubus in this AP? Interesting.
Actually, no. Nocticula is not redeemed during WotR.
She does help the PCs without even really asking favors of them, hinting that she's maybe on the way to redemption (or just likes the idea of them killing other Demon Lords), but she remains CE for the whole AP, and her redemption doesn't really culminate until Return of the Runelords.
So this happened to more than one succubus in this AP? Interesting.
Only one succubus has been redeemed in an AP to my knowledge. Nocticula decided on, and performed, her 'redemption' (AKA: Going Chaotic Neutral) herself. To be specific...
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Any individual who possesses a mind and the ability to choose can choose to be any alignment.
I disagree. You don’t choose alignment, it chooses you. Because of the way we built characters, I think this is looked at in the wrong order. We have to choose an alignment that will define how our character will act. IMHO, your alignment becomes a representation of how you act. Meaning you are not NE because that’s what it says on the paper, you are NE because your actions and in actions fall under what we define as NE. This is important because all creatures, again, IMO, have the potential to change alignment. The more extreme the creature, the less likely it is to happen, but there are examples of fallen angels, graced devils/demons, etc. We can always come up,with a narrative to explain why a creature has deviated from its standard alignment.
If a devil loses its LE alignment, does it stop being a devil? Interesting question. It certainly loses its lawful and evil descriptors, but are those required to qualify as a devil? Does an angel cease being an angel because it is no longer LG? I think that is a question for your GM.
In my home campaigns, I have often told my players not to write down their character’s alignment. I would tell them what it is after a few sessions, once I’ve seen how they react to their environment. This has the effect of forcing players to carefully consider their actions if they have an alignment restricted character because they know if their alignment shifts outside the restrictions, they lose their status, and perhaps most/all of their powers. YMMV
Any individual who possesses a mind and the ability to choose can choose to be any alignment.I disagree. You don’t choose alignment, it chooses you. Because of the way we built characters, I think this is looked at in the wrong order. We have to choose an alignment that will define how our character will act. IMHO, your alignment becomes a representation of how you act. Meaning you are not NE because that’s what it says on the paper, you are NE because your actions and in actions fall under what we define as NE. This is important because all creatures, again, IMO, have the potential to change alignment. The more extreme the creature, the less likely it is to happen, but there are examples of fallen angels, graced devils/demons, etc. We can always come up,with a narrative to explain why a creature has deviated from its standard alignment.
If a devil loses its LE alignment, does it stop being a devil? Interesting question. It certainly loses its lawful and evil descriptors, but are those required to qualify as a devil? Does an angel cease being an angel because it is no longer LG? I think that is a question for your GM.
In my home campaigns, I have often told my players not to write down their character’s alignment. I would tell them what it is after a few sessions, once I’ve seen how they react to their environment. This has the effect of forcing players to carefully consider their actions if they have an alignment restricted character because they know if their alignment shifts outside the restrictions, they lose their status, and perhaps most/all of their powers. YMMV
I've done the same thing where (except for Paladins & such) I told my players that their actions would determine their alignment, not what they write on their stat sheet.
There was a distinct change in RPing after that. :)Every so often, the Good Cleric would sweep the party to check on everybody's soul. Fun times.
And none of them thought evil actions were a Good cure for evil. Violence, while common, was only one option alongside many more Good ones.
I was using "choosing your alignment" as shorthand for "making choices that cause you to become one alignment rather than another."
An evil creature, with the ability to think and make choices can decide to be kind to others, to protect the weak, help the needy, and to abstain from hurting others. Why it might make this choice is contingent on circumstances, and most evil things will have no reason to do so, but individuals are going to make choices and those choices have consequences.
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Like what? What do you think it says about the person?That says something about you that you made your character do that.
Does that automatically make you evil? Of course not, but it does say something
That’s something I’d like to know too.
Why are you playing this character? Why do you want to play this character?
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I can see many devil doing good thing as part of a long con to steal away souls and cause other evil things. Mostly because of the fact that many Devils are very much Lawful first, Evil later. Not to mention a good part of their ideal is making a contract that they can easily exploit, usually by helping out an individual. Which leads to the whole corruption and "was it worth"/great price arcs.
I would argue that is still evil. You cannot pretend to be good to get said alignment. People might mis-evaluate you as good, but you know you are actually evil because motivation can over ride the actual action. Saving a "poor kitty cat" from a tree is not a good act if you are doing it with the intent to torture, skin and eat said cat.
I often encounter players with paladins trying to manufacture some reason why their character would allow or even commit an action that would be considered evil. The old "go outside and look at the architecture" is BS. Often they will do something questionable under the guise of, "well, I'll just go get an atonement later." Again, I call BS. Atonement assumes you are contrite and you cannot be if you are willingly performing an act out of convenience and think you can just baptize it away later, especially if this is a routine action.