Tiefling claws and the hunger-cursed Oracle's bite (And possible build?)


Advice


So, what's this? The 100th thread on natural attacks? Pardon my cheekiness. I've tried to scout the web for threads on this for a few hours now, but haven't really come up with anything conclusive. I will gladly delete this post, if I'm directed towards any of the threads I haven't read..

I'll try to be quick. Started pondering about playing a follower of Urgathoa, and with Oracle being my favorite class, the hunger (gluttony) curse came to mind. I love the flavor of curses.

It provides a bite, which will eventually lead into a free grab. Then the Tiefling's alternate racial "Maw or Claw" which offers two claws as primary attacks came along.

1) My first Question: Can the two be combined in a build somehow? I'm a complete noob as far as natural attacks go. I figured it went something like this;

Bab 1-5
Standard action: 1d6 Bite OR 1d4+1d4 claws
Bab 6-x
Full-round action: 1d6 Bite AND 1d4+1d4 claws
etc.

2) My second question: How do I take this further?

Feats: Improved Natural Attacks, Power Attack, Feral Combat Training?

Classes: Oracle dip? LE Monk? Barbarian? Rage Prophet? Even considered Bloatmage, even though I doubt they mesh with melee builds. I'd actually love an antipaladin delivering cruelties through natural attacks. Or some nasty monk style feats.

What I don't like: Animal companions (Going for a crazed loner type as an initial characterization), Alchemist potions for extra limbs (Barely looks cool on paper IMO, plus I want this character to be feral - not the type to think of strange brews and concoctions)

Character Fluff:
An unwanted Tiefling child, adopted and brought up in a cult, literally starved and depraved of any natural interaction in order to unleash a ferocious, amoral being of carnal desire into the world


You will only want Feral Combat training if you go down the Combat Style route, and that is very feat intensive


True, that would probably only be relevant if I decided to play or include levels from an LE Monk. Which isn't totally out of the question.

Then there's Weapon focus (Claw/Bite). Eldritch claws for magic claws?

I get that the idea is to get iterative attacks with stacking static dmg or effects. Monk sounds ideal in that regard. It's just kind of hard to parse what's essential or what's a logical progression for such a build through wall of text reddit posts, suggesting a plethora of feats.

Say I were to go

Toying with some stats, not sure what I'm doing:

Female NE Tiefling (Asura/Fault-Spawn. Or possibly Demodand for Con instead of Dex?)

(25 point buy, no dumping, 17 highest)
Str: 10 Dex: 17 (19) Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 14 (16) Cha: 12
+ Agile amulet of mighty fists

1. Oracle - Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Iron Skin, Feat: Weapon Focus: Claws
2. UC Monk - Flurry, IUS, Stunning Fist, Bonus: Combat Reflexes
3. UC Monk - Evasion, Bonus: Improved Grapple, Feral Combat Training
4. UC Monk - Fast Movement, Ki Pool, Ki Strike
5. UC Monk - Ki Power: ?, Still Mind, Feat: Kraken Style

Oracle/AntiPaladin:

Would be kind of cool to deliver touch of corruption or cruelties through devastating natural attacks.

Female NE Tiefling (Demon)
Str: 16 (18) Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 16 (18)

1. 1. Oracle - Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Weapon Mastery: Claws, Feat: Power Attack
2. Antipaladin:
3. Antipaladin: Touch of corruption (with claws), Feat: Intimidating Prowess
4. Oracle: Mystery Spell: ?
5. Antipaladin: Cruelty, Plague bringer (ultra-thematic), Feat: Hurtful


Feral Combat Training doesn't give Iterative attacks. So your monk build would be full unarmed attack + secondary claw and bite.

Honestly I would just go straight Battle Oracle


Claw/claw/bite without iteratives is a perfectly good attack routine. With feral combat training and revelation strike (from some mystery with a good attack revelation; not battle) and maybe the odd additional natural attack from items or spells you've got a plan which will stay relevant at higher levels too.


I guess keeping with the Oracle is strictly better...

Still uncertain about what a build progression would look like. Mainly looking to make a natural attack build into something gruesome, versatile and lasting (e.g. work for late game)

Female NE Tiefling
Lunar Oracle (Figured Battle spells such as Enlarge person Wouldn't do me much favors as a Tiefling)
25 point-buy

Demon-spawn:
Str: 16 (18) Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 8 (6) Wis: 12 Cha: 16 (18)
Str: 16 (18) Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 10 (8) Wis: 10 Cha: 16 (18) (Usual Build rules)

Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary, Corpse Cannibal, Drawback: Foul Brand

Primary: 2 Claws (Maw or Claw)
Secondary: Bite (Hunger curse)
Question: As I've understood it, Natural attacks are made with highest bab, and thus won't get a second round once bab passes +6. So a Fullround attack will be +5 claw/+5 claw/+4 bite, even at lvl 1 in this build? If so, is there a way to eventually get more?

Some Lunar Oracle dabbling:

Oracle: 1. Lunar Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Prophetic Armor (Cha to AC) Feat: Weapon Focus Claws
Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Fumbletongue
Oracle 3: Revelation: Touch of the Moon (Prepare Inflict Wounds 1 round and deliver it as touch attack causing confusion?), Feat: Power Attack
Oracle 4: Mystery Spell: Dust of Twilight
Oracle 5: Bite with free Grab (smaller creatures*), Feat: Quicken Magic (For all those spells/self-buffs I eventually want to bring into Melee)
Oracle 6: Mystery Spell: Rage (Now we're talking?)
Oracle 7: Feat: Strange Revelation: Battle Revelation: Resiliency (Diehard bonus feat for rage) or Maneuver Master (Improved Grapple bonus feat?), Iron skin (DR 10/Adamantine?)
Oracle 8: Mystery Spell: Moonstruck
Oracle 9: Feat: Eldritch Claws (Natural attacks treated as Magic/Silver)
Oracle 10: Mystery Spell: Aspect of the Wolf (A nice buff)
Oracle 11: Revelation: Form of the beast (*Would the hunger bite's grab work now that I can turn into a large creature?) Feat: Improved Natural Attack? Cornugon Smash?

I dunno where to go from here.

** Multiclassing Bloodrager 4 with Abyssal Bloodline sounded sweet as a way to enlarge a Tiefling for that Free Grab-Bite.

I could go Oracle (Battle) 3 or 5/Bloodrager 4/Oracle X
Maybe Kyton-Tiefling for 16 Con this time around.

Some Battle Oracle/Bloodrager mess:

1. Oracle 1: Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Prophetic Armor (Cha to AC) Feat: Strange Revelation: Lunar
2. Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Enlarge person (for my person buddies?)
3. Oracle 3: Revelation: Maneuver Master (Improved Grapple), Feat: Power Attack
4. Oracle 4: Mystery Spell: Fog Cloud
5. Oracle 5: Bite with free Grab (smaller creatures*), Feat: Weapon Focus: Claws
6. Bloodrager 1: Bloodline: Abyssal, Bloodline Power: Magic Claws during rage (50% redunant), Fast Movement (Always nice)
7. Bloodrager 2: Uncanny dodge, Feat: Extra Revelation: Resiliency (Diehard)
8. Bloodrager 3: Blood Sanctuary (Maybe an archetype can change this?)
9. Bloodrager 4: Bloodline power: Demonic Bulk (Enlarge!!!), Eschew Materials, Bloodcasting (Maybe something cool here, I dunno), Feat: Extra Revelation: One of the battle ones I didn't pick
10. Oracle 6: Mystery Spell: Magic Vestment (blah)
11. Oracle 7: Feat: Cornugon smash? Improved Natural Attacks? Something grapple-y? Extra rage? Extra revelation? Armor of the Pit (+2 Natural AC)
12. Oracle 8: Mystery Spell: Wall of Fire
14. Oracle 9: Feat: ???
15. Oracle 10: Mystery Spell: Righteous Might (Right this instant, I realized that this can enlarge a Tiefling just fine... So maybe a straight Battle Oracle, after all? Too lazy to rewrite now..)
16. Oracle 11: Revelation: ?? Feat: ???

Or

1. Oracle 1: Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Prophetic Armor (Cha to AC) Feat: Strange Revelation: Lunar
2. Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Fumbletongue
3. Oracle 3: Revelation: Maneuver Master (Improved Grapple), Feat: Power Attack
4. Bloodrager 1: Bloodline: Abyssal, Bloodline Power: Magic Claws during rage (50% redunant), Fast Movement (Always nice)
5. Bloodrager 2: Uncanny dodge, Feat: Extra Revelation: Resiliency (Diehard) or Weapon Focus (Claws)
6. Bloodrager 3: Blood Sanctuary (Maybe an archetype can change this?)
7. Bloodrager 4: Bloodline power: Demonic Bulk (Enlarge!!!), Eschew Materials, Bloodcasting (Maybe something cool here, I dunno), Feat: Extra Revelation: Something cool from Battle, Free grab from hunger curse comes online here right on time.


It seems that I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, all though I feel like we're getting somewhere. I see now, that Righteous Might is a way to enlarge as Tiefling and it unlocks for Battle Oracles at lvl 10, but would otherwise also be an available spell for the Oracle at the same lvl, meaning I am in no way married to the Battle Mystery.

There is probably a way to make room for Feral Combat Training and Revelation Strike, taking advantage of "Touch of the Moon" from the Lunar Mystery and other nasty afflictions in my attacks, which is probably more in line with what I wanted to begin with, as opposed to the self-buffs of the Battle Oracle.

I also see that you can't take Strange Revelation til you have Knowledge (Religion) 5.

Right now, my mind is fried from thinking I've been on the right track only to stumble at the finish line more than once, but like I said, I feel like we're getting somewhere. At least making builds is fun!


Reventyr wrote:

I also see that you can't take Strange Revelation til you have Knowledge (Religion) 5.

Strange Revelation is 3rd party, you are aware of that right?

Lunar Mystery does get you a 4th Natural Attack (Gore) - Gift of Claw and Horn (Su)


Minigiant wrote:
Reventyr wrote:

I also see that you can't take Strange Revelation til you have Knowledge (Religion) 5.

Strange Revelation is 3rd party, you are aware of that right?

Lunar Mystery does get you a 4th Natural Attack (Gore) - Gift of Claw and Horn (Su)

1) Oops, that one slipped by me! I'm on a roll today, yikes!

2) I did consider Gift of Claw and Horn, though I wondered if it was a bit redundant as I already have claws? All though the +1 enhancement at 5th, 10th, 15th, and so on is always nice. What will I do at 11th when I'm granted yet another Natural attack from this revelation? Perhaps an additional claw swipe at the GM's discretion? A tail slap?

So, say I take this revelation at 1st lvl, 18 str, hunger curse, and my first lvl feat is Weapon Focus (Claws), would a full-round attack equate to this?

+5 claw/1d4+4
+5 claw/1d4+4
+4 Bite/1d6+4
+4 Gore/1d6+4

If so, that's absolutely relentlessly gross at first level. I almost refuse to believe that I've understood the rules correctly. It will, of course, scale down with levels, but still...

3) Considering avr's recommendations with Feral Combat Training and Revelation Strike (Which is probably best for Touch of the moon in the Lunar Mystery?), it does sound very feat intensive. Might look at a level of Scaled Fist Monk. While I absolutely loathe having to delay Oracle progression, it does net me a few things:

The good:
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Stunning Fist
- Dragon Style, Improved Grapple or Intimidating Prowess (Intimidate +12 at lvl 1, anyone?!)
- Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Perception, Perform, Ride, Stealth & Swim as class skills, many of which serve my ability scores.
- Our GM allows certain archetypes with Unchained Monk, which means Bab+1 (Power Attack as first feat?)

The so-so
- Delayed spells
- Cha to AC While armorless (Prophetic Armor will feel more like a shoddy repair than an actual investment)
- Would have to be LE (All though, as I wouldn't necessarily return to monk, maybe not?)

... Considering the redundancy, maybe there is an even better mystery for me out there that's neither Lunar nor battle? One with a lot of touch spells? I hear Dark Tapestries is nice.


If you go for revelation strike one of the best mysteries is occult - phantom touch has no save. The solar mystery's blistered caress deals a fair amount of damage which has more synergy with a damage-oriented build perhaps.

Touch of the moon makes inflict wounds spells into effective touch spells but doesn't have any relevance to revelation strike, the lunar mystery doesn't have a relevant revelation - though gift of claw and horn is pretty good on its own.

The cleric list has enough touch attack spells if you go that way, though the lunar mystery does effectively add more as mentioned above.


Occult mystery seems cool. Ectoplasmic Armor revelation would be nice if I dip a level in Monk. As does Spirit Walk. But regarding Phantom Touch... Aren't a vast majority of enemies immune to fear-effects lategame-ish? Seems like there would be diminishing returns for the feats required to take revelation strike.

Also, I'm wondering if any of you pros could weigh in on my understanding of natural attacks.

Would I actually get this or a variation thereof at lvl 1?
+5 claw/1d4+4
+5 claw/1d4+4
+4 Bite/1d6+4
+4 Gore/1d6+4

As for AC, CHA bonus, Ectoplasmic Armor, Magic Vestment, Ring of Protection, Natural Armor amulet, Possible dex modifier and more, should rack up the AC fairly well, right?


Reventyr wrote:


Would I actually get this or a variation thereof at lvl 1?
+5 claw/1d4+4
+5 claw/1d4+4
+4 Bite/1d6+4
+4 Gore/1d6+4

Yes, as a Full round attack, you can use all 4 natural attacks


From lvl 1?

I tried to reread the rules, and from what I've gathered, secondary natural attacks are made at -5 and at half strength bonus.

So, to clarify, at lvl 1 a fullround attack, 18 Str, Bab +1 would ecquate to:

Primary: (+5 Claw/1d4+4) + (+5 Claw/1d4+4) + Secondary (+0 Bite/+1d6+2)


Bites are normally primary natural attacks.

Vast majority immune to fear? Not as far as ~CR 15 anyway, I'm not sure beyond that. Though it'd depend on your GM I guess. Or the adventure path - I'm barely familiar with a few of the lower levels of those and have no knowledge of higher levels.


If you're up for dual cursed or other forms, there is Wolf-scarred as well that improves your bite attack and gives you access to the natural weapon increasing spells. Just have to figure out a way to deal with the whole 20% fail rate.


I have to ask, at its core concept, what is it you want to do?

You want a natural attacker? Or you want a Tiefling? A Monk?

I'm just picking up mixed messages


avr wrote:

Bites are normally primary natural attacks.

Vast majority immune to fear? Not as far as ~CR 15 anyway, I'm not sure beyond that. Though it'd depend on your GM I guess. Or the adventure path - I'm barely familiar with a few of the lower levels of those and have no knowledge of higher levels.

Quote:


Hunger

Ravenous hunger wracks your body in stressful situations. You gain none of the benefits from spells or magic items that provide nourishment, such as goodberry, heroes’ feast, or a ring of sustenance. You also gain a bite attack that deals an amount of piercing damage appropriate for your size (1d8 for a Large creature, 1d6 for Medium, 1d4 for Small) as a secondary natural attack. You begin each combat with the sickened condition until you deal damage with your bite attack.

Either fear-immunity or something that precludes it such as immunity or a strong resistance to mind-affecting effects (like intimidation). In the first adventure path I ever played, after my friend's character died, my friend decided he wanted to make an intimidation build that. He didn't get to use those feats in practically any significant encounter from then on. Granted this was part four of six and we were (unknown to us) wading into a pretty undead/construct heavy part of the path. We were inexperienced, and didn't know exactly how much our GM loved H.R. Giger-esque body horror.

Maybe that's what put me off such a build. Same goes for the Sneak-Attack reliant rogues. The fear that a majority of my build will be largely negated in the later parts of a long-term game. It's part of the reason why I considered Anti-Paladin, due to their aura of courage suppressing such resistances. It's also part of the reason for why I wanted to play an Oracle Natural Attacker. Largely because the hunger curse is very flavorful to Urgathoa, but also because I feel it won't put all my eggs in one basket. Physical attacks being negated? Cast spells.

Darche Schneider wrote:
If you're up for dual cursed or other forms, there is Wolf-scarred as well that improves your bite attack and gives you access to the natural weapon increasing spells. Just have to figure out a way to deal with the whole 20% fail rate.

I considered this. Or the dual-curse in general. Particularly the Plagued curse as the non-progressing one as it grants immunity to the sickened condition, which is a part of the hunger curse. But the reason why I love Oracles are to how flavor-heavy their classes are. I feel the curses are there to expand on your role-playing. Having a constantly hungering worshipper of Urgathoa, to the point where she'd rip into her opponents flesh with her teeth and claws sounded very thematic to me, and I kind of want it there. Wolf-scarred provides an alternative, but I'd rather take a -2 penalty until I'm able to successfully land a bite attack (hoping to mitigate it with Divine Favor and other buffs) than a threat of constant 20% spell-failiure (which isn't nearly as thematic).

Minigiant wrote:

I have to ask, at its core concept, what is it you want to do?

You want a natural attacker? Or you want a Tiefling? A Monk?

I'm just picking up mixed messages

Thank you for this question. If I'm sending mixed messages, it's probably because (like I said in my first post) I'm a 100% natural attack noob. I'll try to clarify:

- Yes, I want to play a Tiefling. Yes, I want to play a natural attacker. No, the monk doesn't have to be a part of it.

- I wondered if it was possible to make a viable build with the hunger Oracle's bite and the claws the Tiefling receive from their alternate racial trait "Maw or Claw"

- Evidently, I'm not completely schooled on the rules of natural attacks. I wondered how they'd work (thus, all my questions regarding action economy) and what feats would support it. Will I get claw/claw/bite, at what AB and so forth.

- I'd love to include Oracle mainly due to the flavor of the hunger curse and build a natural attacker around it. I also feel it would make me less of a one-trick pony. I considered a 1 lvl Scaled Fist UC Monk-dip only because it opens up for a lot of the feats I thought were necessary to make the Oracle a viable natural attacker (e.g. Monk 1/Oracle X). The synergies with Charisma doesn't hurt either.

- At it's core, thematically, I want a tiefling (monstrous acts from a monstrous-deemed race?) worshipper of Urgathoa, hunger-stricken to the point of tearing into her opponents flesh with her bite and claws. So Natural attacks are a priority. Oracle, apart from the flavor of the hunger curse, would supply spells that would make the build less dependent on one form of offense.


Some groundwork:

Natural weapons mostly work just like regular, i.e. manufactured weapon. The existence of a weapon in itself doesn't allow you to make attacks, you need to use an existing rule for that. All characters have the options to make attacks via the standard Attack Action, the Charge action, Attacks of Opportunity (all of these are a single attack), or the full-attack action, with sometimes additional options from feats (like Cleave) or class features (like Flurry of Blows). The main difference natural weapons have that when you use the full-attack action, instead of gaining iterative attacks (the bonus attacks at BAB+6 etc.) you instead can make one attack with each natural weapon you have. Stuff like Haste is seperate added on top either way and is a single extra attack.

If you only use natural weapon, you use them as primary or secondary as stated by the ability, you can have any number of primary attacks. If you combine them with manufactured weapons (or unarmed strikes), they're always secondary.

Reventyr wrote:
I did consider Gift of Claw and Horn, though I wondered if it was a bit redundant as I already have claws? Perhaps an additional claw swipe at the GM's discretion?

It is sadly something not really adressed by the written rules. Explicit rules where temporary natural weapons go are extremely thin, and nothin explicitly says you can't have two multiple claws per hand and stuff.

In practise, just about everyone plays it that you're limit to one claw per hand, one bite per mouth, and so on - if you took the rules on natural attacks strict RAW, natural attack besed characters would be way overpowered.

Full explanation:
The main issue is that many natural attack granting options don't explain the 'how' and 'where' of these natural weapons. The intend behind claw growing options is presumably always that your fingernails grow. This isn't explicitly said, though, and as usually, Paizo's ridiculously over-anthrocentric writing produces problems, e.g. there's nothing RAW preventing a Druid/Barbarian polymorphed into an octopus to grow claws on tentacles. But even for humans, the only actual rules regarding placement we have is this FAQ, which is still vague enough, and has the extra weirdness that technically it doesn't apply to anything without exactly two arms and two legs (like, say, a kasatha).

Likewise, there is the implication that attacks use the respective body part which then becomes unable for other natural weapons (not counting Haste et al.). The only actual rule about that is that you can't use the same limb for both a manufactured weapon attack and a natural attack, again, the anthrocentric writing rears its ugly head. This gets really ambiguous when you realize that a) a slam/claw combo might actually be possible as part of the same movement (slam as a punch, claw when drawing the hand back), and that using a head for both bite and gore is actually quite common. And then we have the two different types of gore (tusks and horns), which may or may not be intended to stack; and the tusk-gore + bite combination, which is even used by a published monsters and really muddles the water.

Reventyr wrote:

2) My second question: How do I take this further?

Feats: Improved Natural Attacks

The way to improve natural attacks is to make more of them.

I'm not kidding here, if you want to improve a natural attack character, it's not about damage dice (super rare cases like Cave Druid notwithstanding). Weapon damage dice are way overrated most of the time, but especially when it comes to natural attacks, because you don't usually have just one type and most often start with small dice. A virtual size increase for a feat sounds good, but certainly isn't if it only affects, say, two attacks out of five. Static damage increases, like from Power Attack, spells, or getting more strength, are significantly better.
Secondary attacks are rather bad, as the not only are at -5 attack, but also deal greatly reduces damage.

Feral Combat Training tricks are bad for most builds as the feat only applies to one type of natural weapons.


So Melee Oracle it is

Divine Interference

Magical Lineage (Divine Favor)) + Quicken Spell will let you cast Quickened Divine Favor as a 4th level spell

Power Attack is a given

Cornugon Smash


Thank you for the clarification. More Natural Attacks are the way to go, it seems. I tried to dabble with a straight Lunar Oracle build. I hope I haven't fumbled the rules again. A little worried about the attack bonus, but what can you do..

My Prospecting:

NE Tiefling Oracle of Lunar mystery
Curse: Hunger
Racial: Claw & Maw + some other fun Tiefling Traits.
Str: 18 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int:8 Wis: 10 Cha: 18
Trait: Fate’s Favoured, Corpse Cannibal, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor), Drawback: Foul Brand

Oracle: 1. Lunar Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Gift of Claw & Horn Feat: Multiattack

Hear me out on the multiattack. If I choose to interpet Gift of Claw & Horn favorably, I’m looking at this attack spread at lvl 1

Primary: Claw +4 - 1d4+4 / Claw +4 - 1d4+4 / Gore +4 -1d6+4/ Secondary: Bite +2/1d6+2

Keep in mind the bite is important for the free grapple at lvl 5 + overcoming the sickened part of the curse. My AC would only come from armor, though. Fortunately it is implied that we won’t start at lvl 1.

Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Fumbletongue
Oracle 3: Revelation: Prophetic Armor, Feat: Power Attack
Oracle 4: Mystery Spell: Dust of Twilight
Oracle 5: Bite with free Grab (smaller creatures*), Feat: Quicken Spell
Oracle 6: Mystery Spell: Rage (Now we're talking?)
Oracle 7: Revelation: Touch of the Moon, Feat: Cornugon Smash

Assuming no enhancements to strength or charisma, we’re now looking at (With Divine Favor, Power Attack, Rage, WF not included):

Claw +7 – 1d4+12/ Claw +7 – 1d4+12/ Gore +8 – 1d6+13/ Secondary: Bite +5 – 1d6+10 + Grab (smaller) + Readied Touch of Moon Inflict Serious Wounds 3d8+7 + Confusion (DC 17) + Cornugon Demoralize

Takes a while to set up, AB is not the greatest, AC now comes from Armor + PA (+Ring + Nat. Arm. Amulet?)

Oracle 8: Mystery Spell: Moonstruck
Oracle 9: Feat: Eldritch Claws (Natural attacks treated as Magic/Silver)
Oracle 10: Mystery Spell: Aspect of the Wolf (A nice buff)

(There will have been enhancements to STR and CHA by now, but I’m not gonna count them, Aspect of the Wolf, Divine Favor, Power Attack, Righteous Might Spell)

Claw +13 – 1d6+16/ Claw +13 – 1d6+16/ Gore +15 – 1d8+17/ Secondary: Bite +11 – 2d6+11 + Grab (now enlarged) + Readied Touch of Moon Inflict Serious Wounds 3d8+10 + Confusion (DC 19) + Cornugon Demoralize

Claws now bypass most dmg reduction. AC will be helped by Righteous Might and what is probably enhancement to AC.

So this would probably be a straight forward Oracle way to build it. What’s the verdict on this?

==============================================

As for multiclassing, I’m wondering what one dip in Unchained Scaled Fist at second lvl would do for the build. It would technically allow me to add my Charisma to AC Twice for one.

+4 Cha (Monk) +4 Cha (Dex, PA) + 2 Nat. Armor from RM or Amulet, Bracers of Armor (No regular armor needed) +2 Magic Vestment on regular, Potion of Shield, Ring of protection clothing. Any enhancement to Charisma would count twice.

Better Bab, Better Saves, Dragon Style (Which will help my first attack) and open up for Dragon Ferocity. It would offset everything by one lvl, though.

If I were to rethink the build, A couple of levels in Antipaladin for Cha to saves, better Bab along the way, Touch of corruption, Chance to use spiked armor for those grabs, could be fun too, but that would be prospecting for another day. If Straight Oracle, maybe go Antipaladin from lvl 10 and onwards, getting some extend metamagic for Righteous Might.


You have no secondary attacks with natural weapons so I don't know why you want the multiattack feat

I would probably delay taking Gift of Claw & Horn (P.S A Bite is Primary) until a few levels in. 3 Natural Attacks at Level 1 is more than enough. Remember an Oracle doesn't get 3 iterative attacks until level 15, so you are well ahead.

I'm curious, Why are you evil?

I would maybe be tempted to go Eldritch Heritage Orc/Abyssal for the Strength bonus

Primal Companion (Warcat) is brutal

Form of the beast could be fun.

P.S Are you aware that Tieflings can get a Bite & Claws just from Race, by using the Variant Abilities and Physical Features, number 10


Quote:


Hunger
Ravenous hunger wracks your body in stressful situations. You gain none of the benefits from spells or magic items that provide nourishment, such as goodberry, heroes’ feast, or a ring of sustenance. You also gain a bite attack that deals an amount of piercing damage appropriate for your size (1d8 for a Large creature, 1d6 for Medium, 1d4 for Small) as a secondary natural attack. You begin each combat with the sickened condition until you deal damage with your bite attack.

The bite from the Hunger curse is explicitly stated to be a secondary natural attack attack. Unless the way it's written assumes your "primary" will be a manufactured weapon. But I'm not sure if I can just assume that. Not having to take Multiattack would free up a feat, which is always good news.

Speaking of feats, Eldritch heritage would require skill focus as a prereq, which I'm not too keen on, to be honest. The power granted by the orc bloodline "Touch of rage", looks like it applies to other creatures first and foremost, unless you can use this power on yourself? The Abyssal bloodline duplicates what I already have in the build save for the increase in dmg dice and +1d6 flaming, just on a less permanent basis. It would free up some feat slots, but I'm not sure if I want my weapons to be available for a limited number of rounds per day.

As stated in my opening post, I'm not really big on animal companions. Just personal taste, I guess, even though it would no doubt be good dmg potential.

Even if Form of the Beast is a lesser beast shape, I see a lot of fun potential with it, if it could be combined with Righteous Might.

I am aware of the table, but I'm not sure if my GM would allow me to pick from it at my own leisure. I actually tried rolling once, as per the rules, and got 84 - immunity to sleep & paralysis. All though, I thought the items on the table replaced the tiefling spell-like ability, which is what you switch out for the maw&claw trait? So to my understanding, you can't get both claw and bite from tiefling racial abilities, alone.

As for the evil part, it has mostly to do with the worship of Urgathoa, neutral evil goddess of gluttony, disease and undeath. There's been a recent push for an evil pc adventure at our table and I wanted to create something monstrous. I've also been interested in conceptual characters that worship an evil deity, justifying that belief and still is able to work alongside a typical party. I have a build for a Zon-Kuthon worshipper in the works, as well. That, and my group has given me flack for my tendency to play virtuous neutral good characters with a bleeding heart for NPCs, questioning the moral grounds of their own character choices.


Reventyr wrote:
Quote:


Hunger
Ravenous hunger wracks your body in stressful situations. You gain none of the benefits from spells or magic items that provide nourishment, such as goodberry, heroes’ feast, or a ring of sustenance. You also gain a bite attack that deals an amount of piercing damage appropriate for your size (1d8 for a Large creature, 1d6 for Medium, 1d4 for Small) as a secondary natural attack. You begin each combat with the sickened condition until you deal damage with your bite attack.
The bite from the Hunger curse is explicitly stated to be a secondary natural attack attack. Unless the way it's written assumes your "primary" will be a manufactured weapon. But I'm not sure if I can just assume that. Not having to take Multiattack would free up a feat, which is always good news.

You are right, I was thinking of a regular bite attack

Reventyr wrote:

Speaking of feats, Eldritch heritage would require skill focus as a prereq, which I'm not too keen on, to be honest. The power granted by the orc bloodline "Touch of rage", looks like it applies to other creatures first and foremost, unless you can use this power on yourself? The Abyssal bloodline duplicates what I already have in the build save for the increase in dmg dice and +1d6 flaming, just on a less permanent basis. It would free up some feat slots, but I'm not sure if I want my weapons to be available for a limited number of rounds per day.

I was thinking more of Improved Eldritch Heritage, and getting that +6 Strength.

With Abyssal, you would have your regular claws 24/7, then grow magical/flaming claws when and if you need them


Yeah, I hadn't looked up the hunger curse until you pointed out some details above. Secondary and you're sickened until you do damage with the bite specifically. That's pretty bad IMO, it means you're at -2 to saves and attack rolls (and ability checks so -2 initiative) until you get into melee and succeed at that attack. Sickened and secondary with multiattack means a -4 to hit with the bite (-7 w/out multiattack of course). I'd seriously consider aiming for an ability which turns you invisible or similar - turning invisible would at least let you get to melee before you get targeted by nasty save effects, and gives you a bonus to your first attack there. The wind, whimsy or shadow mysteries could do this.


Reventyr wrote:
The bite from the Hunger curse is explicitly stated to be a secondary natural attack attack. Unless the way it's written assumes your "primary" will be a manufactured weapon.

Natural weapon descriptions often carry unneccessary reminder text phrased as rule text (the Animal Fury rage power being the worst offender), but the Curse doesn't have enough text in that direction to clearly see intend deviating from text.

The problem with your concept is that it almost cripples your character. You have medium BAB, no attack roll boost apart form spells, and you desperately need to land a secondary natural attack with an additional -2 penalty. At, say, 5th level, if you don't have time to prebuff, even if you can charge the target, that's a 40% chance to land that bite (without using Power Attack) against an average CR5 enemy.

Hunger is, quite frankly, one of the worst curses you could possibly have on the character. Have you considered the Ghoul curse? It has a similar flavor, and while it doesn't grant a bite attack, that's not actually bad in this case as it allows you to get a primary bite, e.g. from a Ring of Rat Fangs (or you could use Gift of Claw and Horn for the bite and get a gore via Spirit Oni Master).

Reventyr wrote:
But the reason why I love Oracles are to how flavor-heavy their classes are. I feel the curses are there to expand on your role-playing. Having a constantly hungering worshipper of Urgathoa, to the point where she'd rip into her opponents flesh with her teeth and claws sounded very thematic to me, and I kind of want it there.

You realize that you don't need the Hunger curse to roleplay such a character, right? All you need for your character concept is a bite attack and claw attacks, everything else can come from, well, roleplaying.

Reventyr wrote:
If I choose to interpet Gift of Claw & Horn favorably

How are you interpreting it? Seems pretty straight forward to me. It refers to the default, which means the gore is a primary attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature. At every 5th level, that gore gets +1 to attack and damage rolls (which will probably be irrelevant because you want an AoMF and the bonuses don't stack).

Reventyr wrote:
As for multiclassing, I’m wondering what one dip in Unchained Scaled Fist at second lvl would do for the build. It would technically allow me to add my Charisma to AC Twice for one.

Nope.

Reventyr wrote:
Dragon Style (Which will help my first attack) and open up for Dragon Ferocity.

Only for unarmed strikes.


avr wrote:
I'd seriously consider aiming for an ability which turns you invisible or similar - turning invisible would at least let you get to melee before you get targeted by nasty save effects, and gives you a bonus to your first attack there. The wind, whimsy or shadow mysteries could do this.

Waves Mystery - Water Sight, with Obscuring Mist could be a way to go.

The Waves Mystery has something for the Revelation Strike feat in Wintry Touch

FYI I think a Shark esq Tiefling would be awesome


There were a few eye-openers in the last posts here. I guess it's about high time that I thank you all for your contributions :) I'll try one more build attempting to co-opt the last advices here. Gone is the hunger curse, replaced with the ghoul curse that works splendid for an Urgathoa worshipper (thanks for the tip, DerkLord!). I'll stick with the Lunar mystery for now, as a way to get the primary natural attacks. Waves mystery looked really cool and a shark is an apt comparison for this concept, but I'm not sure how it would grant me iterative natural attacks.

New Build:

«Lady»
NE Tiefling Lunar Oracle
Curse: Ghoul (Curse of corruption)
Racial: Claws
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor), Corpse Cannibal

Monster Feats: Blood Feast

1 Revelation: Prophetic Armor, Feat: Skill Focus (knw. Planes) or Weapon Focus: Claws
3 Revelation: Gift of Claw & Horn (Bite, primary), Power Attack
5 Ghoul Touch bonus spell, Feat: Quicken Spell, Bite is now +1
7 Revelation: Touch of the Moon, Feat: Eldritch heritage (Claws are now Magic 9 round/day) or Cornugon Smash or Something else?
8 Divine Favor can now be quickened
9 Feat: Eldritch Claws (Slightly redundant if EH is taken) or Toughness, Armor of the Pit, Extend spell (for divine favor)???, With EH, Claws are now 1d6
10 Immune to Desease and Paralysis, Bite is now +2
11 Revelation: Form of the Beast, Feat: Improved Eldritch Heritage (+2 inherent STR) or a different feat, Gain a +2 Gore Attack (Finally!)
13 EH Claws are now Flaming, Feat: ???
15 Bite and Gore are now +3, If EH (Str +4), Feat: ???, Hero’s Feast effects,

Now, this build looks tenfolds more assured to hit. The slow onset of the iterative natural attacks aren’t too bothersome. Few have a chance to hit 4 times at 11th. Nasty quickened touch spells can be applied to hit, especially Inflict Wounds for that Confusion bonus (Touch of Moonn).

There are plenty of vacant feat slots as well (suggestions are welcome)

Gift of claw and horns will be available (3 + Cha x ½ lvl, in ½ lvl increments) per day. 7 rounds of extra bite at 1st lvl is okay, and depending on how well I treat my charisma mod, I will be looking at 70 – 100 rounds per day, which will mean that they are a reliable source of damage.

The Abyssal claws from eldritch heritage, however, is only available for 3 + Cha modifier rounds a day. Assuming a Cha of 28, that’s only 12 rounds per day, which is slightly depressing. The good news is that the bloodline claws would be activated as a free action and do not have to be used consecutively. Which means I’ll have 12 opportunities to dish out some extra damage per day. Might not be too unbalanced? At later levels I might be toying with divine spells and Form of the Beast for most of the duration of encounters, so maybe 12 rounds of claws aren’t too bad? The strength bonus from improved (+2 str at 11th, +4 at 15th) Would remain to. Are the Eldritch feats worth the investment, or should I try to permanently replicate their effect with, perhaps even stronger feats?

Final Thoughts: I think this might be the strongest version of my concept, thus far. Of course, it all comes down to if an Oracle with natural attacks is that strong in general. I’ve thought about building this concept through a Bloodrager or an Antipaladin – Might see how they stack up by comparison. The Full Caster aspect of it, is of course, nice, and considering how much I’ll be reliant on Charisma, I might be able to utilize the spells nicely to.


I have to be quick as I don't have a lot of time to go over your build.

This is what I would do

Tiefling with Maw (Bite)

Spirit Guide Oracle (Mammoth & Battle Spirits mainly)
Mystery: Waves

Feat
1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
3 - Skill Focus (Planes)
5 - Eldritch Heritage Abyssal
7 - Feral Combat Training
9 - Quicken Spell
11 - Revelation Strike
13 - Improved Eldritch Heritage

Revelation
1 - Water sight
11 - Wintry Touch


Minigiant wrote:

I have to be quick as I don't have a lot of time to go over your build.

This is what I would do

Tiefling with Maw (Bite)

Spirit Guide Oracle (Mammoth & Battle Spirits mainly)
Mystery: Waves

Feat
1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
3 - Skill Focus (Planes)
5 - Eldritch Heritage Abyssal
7 - Feral Combat Training
9 - Quicken Spell
11 - Revelation Strike
13 - Improved Eldritch Heritage

Revelation
1 - Water sight
11 - Wintry Touch

Hmm, I'm not sure if this was meant as a suggestion towards my own build or something you are doing yourself, but I'm not sure if this build would work all that well in practice. I get that it builds towards revelation strike with natural weapons, and, to be fair, it does supply all of those things, just in painfully limited amounts. My takes are;

It takes a long time to come online. From first to fifth level your means (not counting spells) of attacking would be a single improved unarmed strike followed by a bite that's relegated to secondary (-5 to hit, half strength) due to how natural weapons interact with manufactured ones (which unarmed strike, not being a natural attack, counts as.)

At fifth lvl you are given claws, which gives you a bit more leeway, but only for 3 + Cha mod rounds a day, which isn't nearly enough. After that, you are back to IUS + Secondary bite.

As late as lvl 11, are you able to able to fully synergize the feats. But still, only for Cha + 3 rounds a day. This goes for Wintry Touch as well. Unlike "Gift of Claw & Horns" its duration is not expanded by 1/2 your level.

I'd say revelation strike is a bit of a trap here. You're spending three feats on something that has a relatively low payoff, and another three feats on what might be one of the questionably weaker points of my own build. Comparatively, my build has 4 natural attacks at lvl 11 (all primary attacks, with bite & gore being at +2) with many times the duration, power attack, possibly Cornugon Smash, and can further deliver quickened touch spells through the natural weapons with confusion as an added debuff for quickened inflict light wounds (1d8 + 5 magic damage + confusion vs. Wintry touch 2d6 + 5 cold damage). Granted, the number of uses for that one particular debuff isn't much, but still. All except for the Gore attack, my attacks come online at lvl 7.

Spirit Guide seems like a really cool archetype, though it's thematically far from what I'm going for in my own build. My -1 to int (this makes sense with the character flavor), won't really grant much to the knowledge skills provided, for one. The spells provided by Mammoth & Battle (haven't checked out the others) are largely available in my spell list.

The ability to gain a hex a day from whichever mystery is great, though, and opens up for a lot of versatility. Mammoth's Thunderfoot, eventually granting greater overrun at "Full BaB" is one example. That's a lot of combat feats, nearly for free. Generally the selection of hexes from those two isn't really that interesting, at least to my own build, but that's just a personal opinion. It might work really well on a different character more built towards it.

Gaining the greater spirit ability at 15th (Shaman gets it a 8th) means she will only get the first iteration in the case of Mammoth (+2 enhancement to strength, likely negated by a +str belt at this point). The greater spirit for battle (granting bane) is slightly better, though nothing truly thrilling at 15th where campaigns tend to end.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding negative. I might have missed something vital, in regards to how you implement your given hexes, if so I apologize for how this might come off.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Tiefling claws and the hunger-cursed Oracle's bite (And possible build?) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.