I'll take a note of your feedback - It is possible to make a maestro/warrior-bard more melee-oriented with for example a champion archetype, as you mention, and mitigate some of the perceived imbalances. This campaign goes from 1-17. It might not be smooth sailing all the way, but it is possible.
One of my reasons for making this thread in the first place, however, is that my experiences with 2e is fairly opposite from what is described in the feedback. Yes, the way you build your character is less important, thankfully - though from researching champion builds in particular, I've seen people chastised for taking the "wrong feats". Party synergy, on the other hand, is way more important in my experience. The "teamwork"-part you mention.
Contrary to what it may seem like, this is a mindset we've gotten into since 2e. We've seen far more harrowing combat situations that not just relied upon performing your own role well, but performing it in a way that makes the others perform well too. I wasn't too thrilled about throwing up courageous anthem for the magus alone, or playing in a party where 3/4 members preferably stayed out of the fray, and would rather look for a solution where I could be more helpful. That would be more fun for me.
Maybe the background information as for why I was seeking advice wasn't really a needed inclusion. I guess the mercurial bitterness was a bit hard to toss away as I wrote this. It's a relatively fresh blow after all :P
And while you might be right in that I'm still not all too pleased with the outcome, I do think it's necessary for this party to function and for me to feel like I contribute.
So my questions were genuine;
1) Is a champion a good fit for this party, or are there other, better, suggestions?
2) Does the build look okay? I've never committed to playing a champion and I'm getting the impression that there are some fairly linear ways you need to build them in regards to ally choice & feat chains for instance.
Our previous campaign was coming to an end, and we were discussing what classes we would like to try out. One player quickly claimed the Inexonerable Iron Magus, another wanted to be a Cloistered Cleric having previously played a Barbarian. I had my sights on the Bard, and the final player said he'd like to be a tanky and protective fighter or champion.
"Perfect!" I thought. We'd have reliable healing and generous buffs supporting two flanking martials in the fray! This looked like it was going to be a well-oiled machinery. Come session zero last Tuesday, and the "fighter or champion" had suddenly switched out his character for a Witch, making our party consist of the aforementioned Primal Witch, a Cloistered Cleric, a Maestro/Warrior Bard and only a magus left to front the party in combat.
Needless to say, this doesn't look like a party that's going to benefit as much from having a bard as it would have being rounded out by a different class, so it seems like I'll be tossing 4-5 months of meticulous planning, character development, spell selection, and item & equipment research out the window.
I've been looking towards playing a Champion so I can at least keep some of the charisma I had envisioned for my character, even if it might be a bit wonky pre-remaster.
My questions:
1) Is redeemer champion a sound choice to round out this party?
- (Witch, Redeemer champ, Iron Magus, C.Cleric)
2) What do you think of this build? It's a bit hastily put together, all things considered. Might be open to try Liberator as well. We are allowed two bonus ancestry feats at lvl 1 & are playing with Free Archetype.
Thank you all for clarifying and sharing my optimism :) Interesting note on the demodand. Loving the flavor the lineage feats bring to the table and how they build into later ancestry feats. Hoping to see more soon!
I like using it as a plot hook. It's like the old rule for writers: if you make a mistake, use it, don't fix it.
My idea would be that your tiefling was actually native to this other plane unbeknownst to them. But that the big bad of your campaign knew and made sure this spell was deployed against them. Mystery to be solved.
I like that rule as well and it was definitely employed here. No need for templates and such, it was rather tied to the plot. Even though not every detail has been revealed yet, it seemed the GM worked extensively to make it tied to the plot, which I am grateful for. It involved a past life and planar corruption of the soul. It didn't necessarily infringe on my backstory, but did affect the character which I'm a tad defensive about, but all in all the effort behind solving it was more than proportional to the slight oversight on the rules. Still taking in the lengths the GM actually went to make it work.
So far, we heave the beastbrood (raksasha-spawn), the grimspawn (daemon-spawn), the hellspawn (devil-spawn), the pitborn (demon-spawn), the riftmarked (qlippoth-spawn) and the shackleborn (Velstrac/Kyton-spawn).
That leaves the Faultspawn/Asura-spawn, Foulspawn/Demodandspawn, Hungerseed/Oni-Spawn, and Spitespawn/Div-spawn. Does anyone know if these lineages are on the horizon? I'm terrible at browsing and wouldn't know where to look for news of such releases. Personally hoping for a div-spawn release for character reasons.
Well, that clarifies the RAW part, at least, which I already assumed. Frankly, I think the GM was a bit stumped once we discussed it post-session and unsure of how to proceed with it. Thus, we're seeking ideas on how to rule it as it makes for a fun story hook. We're willing to homebrew something, akin to the old templates.
Also, sorry for the wordy post. It seems my actual question, which wasn't about rule clarification, got a bit lost in there.
So my 3rd lvl tiefling animal instinct barbarian crit failed her wis save against banishment and was sent to Abaddon for seven days with no way of returning...
Now, does banishment work on tieflings? If it does, then my actual question is answered. It simply happened, and is a hazard I'll have to be on the look out for. Though, if I remember my 1e rules correctly, banishment does not work on tieflings normally. They are outsiders, though native to the material plane and so forth. Chalk it up to a late game on a work day, and not wanting to spend 15 minutes of precious game time to look for rule clarifications.
My actual question stems from this; We decided to go for it, anyway. I'm more into story development and tension building, than I am into strict rule following and this certainly made for a very chaotic cliffhanger. We even made private plans on a 1 on 1 session before the next game, to detail what my little vacation to hell was like and not clog up the next session with me taking the spotlight. Retconning it, to abide by rules would be a little anti-climactic now. There might also be a backstory reason explaining that she actually is native to Abaddon, but that's besides the point.
Now, my question: Seeing as I might have imposed a fairly big penalty to myself, that wouldn't ordinarily be there, I might need some mechanical benefit to counteract it. How would you guys solve it, in a balanced way?
A few easy solutions might be;
1) The banishment spell did in actuality fail, though forces from beyond used the abjuration energy to pull me over for a specific reason (GM plot hook), meaning future uses of the spell wouldn't affect me. Not too fond of grand destinies or implied "chosen one"-storylines, but it could be used as an explanation.
2) The GM and I privately agree to never have the banishment spell be apart of the game again, so this effectively becomes a one time issue.
But this is not why I've gathered you all here, I've gathered you to ask for help in finding a mechanical counter-balance to accepting a weakness I wasn't originally meant to have. Maybe I was being a bit too unearnestly modest when I said I cared more about story, but oh well.
If it helps, flavourwise, my tiefling is of the hitherto unconverted div-spawn/Spiteborn tiefling variant. More precisely, the Shira, which are bipedal lioness-like div that enjoys hunting strong prey. Thus, a catfolk/tiefling animal barbarian was fairly apt. She is also a neutral evil worshiper of Urgathoa, so she isn't completely out of place in Abaddon. Though I still role played her as being fairly scared, having only known the comfortable material plane in her young life.
We did look up the div trait which alludes to greater darkvision, but also imposes weakness to cold iron and good-aligned attacks. Not exactly a penalty I'm keen on for a front-line attacker.
TLDR: What would be a good mechanical counterbalance to having your pc tiefling getting the extraplanar subtype?
To be fair, I was considering the shark as well, obviously going for a grapple build - Mechanically I'm not about to break that shark anathema any time soon, with deer being far more likely and would need a work around, if they are going on a royal hunt for instance. The shark might have a bad rep as a ruthless hungering killer - apt for a Neutral Evil worshiper of Urgathoa, though at the same time I found it ironically funny and perhaps a bit telling that an otherwise immoral and egotistical character might lack the self-insight and identify (completely unwarranted) with the serene image of a deer - maybe showing that the character is capable of selective empathy, should she develop in that direction over the course of the story.
Her: "The deer! Look at it! It's just like me with its horns.. alluring and mysterious, almost regal!"
Rest of the party: "...You serious?"
I might still change it to shark, as I imagine there might be some fancy dinners down the line, which a follower of Urgathoa is not one to pass on. Still, now that I am fully aware... It's very hard to turn down 10 foot reach over practically nothing aside from an 'easier' anathema. Right?
I'm less concerned about the combat build and more about how bad a fit this looks for War for the Crown. Your character has very little to offer outside of the physical. There is a good charisma score but little further investment in charisma skills-- you aren't even trained in diplomacy until half way through the game. You're gonna be wrestling titans less often than you will be, say, trying to impress a group. Options like this aren't merely flavor choices. They are important mechanical foundations for winning this campaign. The entire first level of play is entirely social skill checks.
On top of that, as the player's guide mentions Taldor is racist af. Even half eves are viewed as mogrels and shameful to a family. You're a furry demon cat thing. Are you sure people will even let you into the party, much less want to talk to you when they see you there?
You may have discussed this with your table. Maybe the GM doesn't really want to tackle racism. Maybe the other players have leaned into the social skills enough and just need muscle, and maybe you're ok with having little to contribute outside of combat. But if you haven't had that conversation you probably should. :)
Good points! With 2E lacking the means of improving skill ranks in the same way 1E did (and won't do til lvl 4), I find it a bit difficult to cover all the bases, but I have most of them trained at the start. I wouldn't exactly say that it's "little to contribute", but I see your point for later levels. The GM hasn't really done much in regards to telling us what to prioritize them particularly even if social skills are a given. I am the team's muscle - the rest will be an investigator, a cleric, and a sorcerer. Non are good-aligned, but we will find internal motivation to drive the campaign forward, nonetheless. I want the character to be duplicitous and something of a sneak, perhaps even threatening. I might focus more on deception, with skill feats such as charming liar as the levels go by.
The race thing is purely intentional. She is flavored as looking fairly humanoid and tiefling-like, save for digitigrade legs hidden beneath fancy dresses, aiding her in acrobatics and speed. She was adopted as a vanity project by a would-be baroness (pre-primogeniture), to cause a little social stir and gain attention for herself, seeing as their noble house has disappeared into anonymity from the public eye. Her noble adopted mother is also a member of a secret society of Urgathoa worshipers (supported by the player's guide), having secretly groomed the tiefling's violent and feral tendencies to lie dormant beneath the surface of an otherwise polite and exotic-looking girl trained to play the part for curious nobles at dinner parties. She is somewhat influenced by characters such as X-23, Cassandra Cain, and maybe a little bit of Catra from the She-ra reboot. At the start, she will be motivated to change Taldor in order to assure that her mother can rightfully attain the title of baroness and gain control of their house. She detests commonfolk and otherwise acts as a snooty debutante. At least in the beginning. Where her arc goes will be determined by how the sessions unfold.
Option 2: Regular (Assurance) Grapple (Not with Horns, does not invoke MAP) + Flurry of Blows + Thrash/Whirling Throw
Using Assurance allows you to ignore any MAP you're already suffering. It does not allow you to ignore the fact that Grab has the attack trait and will increase your MAP for subsequent attacks.
So your Flurry in this example will be at -5/-10.
Thanks. Good to know - it's these kinds of things you want to know sooner than later, and as we're all new to the system (GM included), clarifying such rules helps us a lot!
Thank you both for the response. My impression is that the rules are riddled with little loop holes like this that's easy to overlook and important to be aware of. Sometimes you find a way to work around it, but other times your build might not work they way you had intended, and that was one of the things I was worried about.
This definitely supports investing in athletics. I didn't really even consider the fact that I would be getting a reach grab. It gives me a few circumstantial options as the levels go by such as;
Option 1: Combat grab with Horns (handwraps bonus) + Thrash + Whirling Throw
Option 2: Regular (Assurance) Grapple (Not with Horns, does not invoke MAP) + Flurry of Blows + Thrash/Whirling Throw
Starting up War for the crown shortly as a player. We've been given a little lee-way in our build and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the feat options. As war for the crown is a social heavy campaign there will be some feat choices for flavor alone. I am filling the role of the team's beastly striker. A vain adopted baron's daughter by day who lashes into a frenzy at the scent/sight of blood. Mainly unarmed/maneuvers. Also hoping to jump like a cat!
I am hoping that the perceptive eyes of Paizo can point out some room for improvement or other feedback.
GM's lee-way: Two extra ancestry feats at lvl 1 and the free archetype custom ruling.
Class: Barbarian
Race: Catfolk/Tiefling (adopted as an exotic vanity project, enabling violent and anti-social traits in the shadows)
Class: Raging Intimidation, Deer Instinct ("They have horns, just like me!")
Ancestry: Nimble Hooves, Fiendish lore, Hellspawn
Skill: Darkvision, Land on your feet, Lie to Me, Multilingual, Intimidating Glare
Any feedback is welcome - even positive would make me more assured. As I am very new to second edition it would be nice to know if I'm heading in the right direction.
Sorry about double-posting/bumping, but I've taken some time to re-evaluate these builds. Same homebrew-rules about getting three ancestry feats applies.
This is for War for the Crown, a campaign where I anticipate there will be equally important social encounters as there will be combat encounters. I'm basically asking if there are ways to build the same concept and get even more profit.
I'm trying to play to the monk's strength of mobility to impede enemies. Stunning and combat maneuvers seems like a good option to disrupt and rob enemies of their action economy. I'm okay with sacrificing some damage for this as the team will feature a fighter, a champion, and a sorcerer.
Incidentally, we'll be starting at lvl 2 - Any ideas for what equipment I should go for? 1 lvl 1 item/20 GP or 30 GP. Not enough for the handwraps. Thought about pooling it all into explorer's clothing and healing potions.
1 Crane Stance, Land on your Feet, Darkvision, Multilingual, Lie to me
2 Stunning Fist, Quick Jump
3 Toughness
4 Rapid Mantel, Stand Still or Crushing Grab
5 Springing Leaper (double/triple jumping distance)
6 Crane Flutter, Nimble Crawl (?)
7 Path to perfection: Will saves, General Feat: Fast Recovery (?)
8 Abundant Step or Flurry of Maneuvers
9 Devil Magic (Invisibility, Misdirection)
10 Knockback Strike or Whirling Throw
11 Path to perfection: Fortitude, Genereal Feat: ?
12 Sleeper Hold or Stance Savant
The build is fairly mobile, has max AC and can impede enemies with stunning fist, stand still or a slowly onset grapple - though combat maneuvers are slightly better on a strength build. While I feel that I'm getting plenty as far as mobility and surviveability go, I guess it's lacking a bit in the combat versatility department.
1 Gorilla Stance (Bonus to grapple/Climb), Land on your Feet, Darkvision, Multilingual, Lie to me
2 Stunning Fist, Combat Climber
3 Toughness
4 Assurance (Athletics), Crushing Grab
5 Springing Leaper
6 Flurry of Maneuvers, Powerful Leap (?)
7 Path to perfection: Will saves, General Feat: Fast Recovery/Quick Climber (?)
8 Whirling Throw
9 Devil Magic (Invisibility, Misdirection)
10 Sleeper Hold
11 Path to perfection: Fortitude, Genereal Feat: ?
12 Stance Savant
Loses a bit in the AC department (though runes cap dex bonus at 5, so maybe it's for the better?), Stronger attacks, Not as jumpy, but more climb-y, A lot better at grappling.
The builds are still somewhat unpolished, but I think I'm closer to a build with less superfluous feats.
Mainly so that Athletics checks stay at their peak. Stunning strike DC, Combat maneuvers, high jumps, Climbing.
I haven't really considered Gorilla, nor Dragon Stance yet. I kind of steered away from the non-finessable stances.
But why steer away from the non finessable stance if you then dont use finesse.
Stunning strike DC doesnt key off strenght it keys off your key ability score which you can use Dex for. For the other stuff id Value the +1 AC more than a +1 in those but thats up to you.
I think I may have phrased that poorly. I didn't go for the finesse stances for the sake of finesse, rather that the non-finessable ones didn't seem to provide much beyond damage. But you have a point. It would probably be smart to capitalize off of 18 DEX if I am to use a finesse-able stance. Hit more and be harder to hit and retain stunning fist DC. It could work with a defensive style like Crane Stance.
Gorilla Stance/Dragon Stance could be good for a Strength-focused catfolk which would utilize the relatively high Charisma for intimidation. Gorilla Stance could also be built as a grappler which would give more utility.
Why 18 Str and 16 Dex? For Crane Stance id go 16 Str 18 Dex. Attack bonus stays the same but 1 lower damage traded for 1 more AC. I personally like Strenght Monk but if you go that route id go Dragon Stance or Gorilla Stance.
Mainly so that Athletics checks stay at their peak. Stunning strike DC, Combat maneuvers, high jumps, Climbing.
I haven't really considered Gorilla, nor Dragon Stance yet. I kind of steered away from the non-finessable stances. I do like how Gorilla stance works well with grappling and climbing. And Dragon stance capitalizes off of intimidation which could be used with the catfolk build.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Tiger Stance seems more fitting for X-23 or Catra, innit?
Indeed! I was going for something ruthless and slashy at first (given that natural attacks still aren't too easy to implement) - All though, I wouldn't mind going for a build that plays more to the other strengths of the monk. They are easily "out-damaged" by the other martial classes, but they can get pretty defensive (read: Catra's catlike dodging) and mobile, which means they can move around spreading havoc through combat maneuvers and stunning.
The tiger stance and wolf stance might be substitutes for the crane stance. I do love the high ac, lvl 6 reaction and mobility it affords me, though.
Two minor things ('cause I'm not much of a build critic):
Canny Acumen only brings the save (or Perception) you pick up to Expert; it does eventually pump it to Master, but not until 17th level. Since monks start with all Expert saves, I wouldn't get this at 7th. Get it for your remaining Expert save at/around 17th.
Ki spells depend on your Wisdom to set their impact, but this doesn't matter for most of them. Wholeness of Body is an exception. While it will heal your HP no problem, if you want to use it to cure yourself of poison or disease you need to make a counteract check, which for you will be Wisdom-based. So relying on WoB with Wis 8-10 isn't so great.
Wow, I wasn't expecting a reply this soon, and from the looks of it you gave both my ideas a worthy read. Thank you very much!
I missed those two rules completely. Wasn't even aware that "counteracting" referred to an action - I thought it was only flavor and that you could expend a focus point and effectively rid yourself of a poison. Freeing up a feat slot at 7 is always something. A little bit of a bummer regarding status healing, all though I was considering abandoning the ki feats all-together, in favor of something that could boost combat versatility. I might go for stand still at 4 and an additional general feat at 1 if I stick with Human.
So, I had a go at building a tiefling monk for Pathfinder 2E and I’m looking for a little feedback/some ideas regarding feat progression. I have never played any games of 2E as of yet.
The build came about from an idea and is intended for a role play heavy campaign (War for the crown), and thus you’ll see some flavor-induced feats you might not have otherwise reccomended. I’m not married to any particular monk concept, but I know I want the following.
1. An unarmed character that fights with their bare hands. No monastic weaponry. I’ve considered an animal spirit barbarian, but…
2. A mobile/dodging/jumping character. Not really keen on the sluggish mountain stance.
- Cassandra Cain, X-23 and eventually Catra from the new She-ra Cartoon are the biggest character influences. Prioritizing High AC seems like a worthy investment considereng the new crit system. Plus, who doesn’t love survivability? This is why I currently have my button on the monk over the barbarian. Crane stance, though limited to a strike with a low damage dice, seems the most fitting.
3. The ability to use the environment/harrass/impairing foes
- This one isn’t so much about what I want, as it is about finding a niche that synergizes well with the rest of the party. The party will feature a fighter and possibly a warpriest or champion. Maybe it will be okay if I prioritize ways to dibilitate foes over damage output and otherwise be a very mobile tank? Maybe use the class skills that bypass resistance to get in some debuffs?
The GM has allowed us three ancestry feats at lvl 1 to distinguish the ancestries more. We missed some of the flavor from 1e.
Monk Tiefling (Human) :
Str: 18 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 12
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Lore (Mercantile, Legal), Performance (Vielle), Society, Stealth, (Intimidation + Religion if I go for Fiendish Lore)
1. Crance Stance, Ki Rush*, Flurry of Blows, Multilingual, Lie To me
Ancestry: Hellspawn, Natural Ambition*, Fiendish Eyes (Darkvision). (Might go for lore (Intimidation, Religion as skills) or Nimble Hooves (+ movement))
2. Stunning Fist, Quick Jump (meshes well with crane stance)
3. Toughness, +10 feet, Mystic Strikes
4. Wholeness of Body (LOVE the idea of healing myself), Rapid Mantel
5. + Acrobatics, Ability Boost (Str 19, Dex 18, Con 14, Wis or Cha), Nimble Hooves (+5 Feet), Alertness, Expert Strikes
6. Crane Flutter, Powerful Leap/Cat’s fall (not sure about the skill feats from here on)
7. Path: Boost Will saves, Canny Acumen: Boost Fortitude
8. Class: Maybe something to get more focus?, Skill: Wall Jump?
9. Devil Magic (Invisibility and Misdirection once per day sounds good both in and out of combat)
As I’m gradually progressing throughout the build, I’m less certain on what to go for. I think I have the mobility covered. Run/jump out of harms way (or get all the way up to the pesky mage) in order to stun/shove/trip them
1. Crance Stance, Flurry of Blows, Multilingual, Lie To me, Darkvision, Land on your feet
Ancestry: Hellspawn, Nimble Hooves (+5 feet)/Catfolk’s Luck (reroll ref saves 1/day), Fiendish Lore
2. Student of Perfection dedication (Early athletics boost, Ki strike), Rapid Mantel
3. Toughness, +10 feet, Mystic Strikes
4. Wholeness of Body, Quick Jump
5. + Acrobatics, Ability Boost (Str 19, Dex 18, Con 14, Wis or Cha), , Alertness, Expert Strikes
6. Crane Flutter, Powerful Leap?
7. Path: Boost Will saves, Canny Acumen: Boost Fortitude
8. Class: Maybe something to get more focus?, Skill: Wall Jump? Kip up?
9. Devil Magic (Invisibility and Misdirection once per day sounds good both in and out of combat)
«Loses» StunningFist, but unlocks a lot of utility – Might work better with a different stance/focus on feinting or initimidation.
Hmm, I'm not sure if this was meant as a suggestion towards my own build or something you are doing yourself, but I'm not sure if this build would work all that well in practice. I get that it builds towards revelation strike with natural weapons, and, to be fair, it does supply all of those things, just in painfully limited amounts. My takes are;
It takes a long time to come online. From first to fifth level your means (not counting spells) of attacking would be a single improved unarmed strike followed by a bite that's relegated to secondary (-5 to hit, half strength) due to how natural weapons interact with manufactured ones (which unarmed strike, not being a natural attack, counts as.)
At fifth lvl you are given claws, which gives you a bit more leeway, but only for 3 + Cha mod rounds a day, which isn't nearly enough. After that, you are back to IUS + Secondary bite.
As late as lvl 11, are you able to able to fully synergize the feats. But still, only for Cha + 3 rounds a day. This goes for Wintry Touch as well. Unlike "Gift of Claw & Horns" its duration is not expanded by 1/2 your level.
I'd say revelation strike is a bit of a trap here. You're spending three feats on something that has a relatively low payoff, and another three feats on what might be one of the questionably weaker points of my own build. Comparatively, my build has 4 natural attacks at lvl 11 (all primary attacks, with bite & gore being at +2) with many times the duration, power attack, possibly Cornugon Smash, and can further deliver quickened touch spells through the natural weapons with confusion as an added debuff for quickened inflict light wounds (1d8 + 5 magic damage + confusion vs. Wintry touch 2d6 + 5 cold damage). Granted, the number of uses for that one particular debuff isn't much, but still. All except for the Gore attack, my attacks come online at lvl 7.
Spirit Guide seems like a really cool archetype, though it's thematically far from what I'm going for in my own build. My -1 to int (this makes sense with the character flavor), won't really grant much to the knowledge skills provided, for one. The spells provided by Mammoth & Battle (haven't checked out the others) are largely available in my spell list.
The ability to gain a hex a day from whichever mystery is great, though, and opens up for a lot of versatility. Mammoth's Thunderfoot, eventually granting greater overrun at "Full BaB" is one example. That's a lot of combat feats, nearly for free. Generally the selection of hexes from those two isn't really that interesting, at least to my own build, but that's just a personal opinion. It might work really well on a different character more built towards it.
Gaining the greater spirit ability at 15th (Shaman gets it a 8th) means she will only get the first iteration in the case of Mammoth (+2 enhancement to strength, likely negated by a +str belt at this point). The greater spirit for battle (granting bane) is slightly better, though nothing truly thrilling at 15th where campaigns tend to end.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding negative. I might have missed something vital, in regards to how you implement your given hexes, if so I apologize for how this might come off.
There were a few eye-openers in the last posts here. I guess it's about high time that I thank you all for your contributions :) I'll try one more build attempting to co-opt the last advices here. Gone is the hunger curse, replaced with the ghoul curse that works splendid for an Urgathoa worshipper (thanks for the tip, DerkLord!). I'll stick with the Lunar mystery for now, as a way to get the primary natural attacks. Waves mystery looked really cool and a shark is an apt comparison for this concept, but I'm not sure how it would grant me iterative natural attacks.
New Build:
«Lady»
NE Tiefling Lunar Oracle
Curse: Ghoul (Curse of corruption)
Racial: Claws
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor), Corpse Cannibal
Monster Feats: Blood Feast
1 Revelation: Prophetic Armor, Feat: Skill Focus (knw. Planes) or Weapon Focus: Claws
3 Revelation: Gift of Claw & Horn (Bite, primary), Power Attack
5 Ghoul Touch bonus spell, Feat: Quicken Spell, Bite is now +1
7 Revelation: Touch of the Moon, Feat: Eldritch heritage (Claws are now Magic 9 round/day) or Cornugon Smash or Something else?
8 Divine Favor can now be quickened
9 Feat: Eldritch Claws (Slightly redundant if EH is taken) or Toughness, Armor of the Pit, Extend spell (for divine favor)???, With EH, Claws are now 1d6
10 Immune to Desease and Paralysis, Bite is now +2
11 Revelation: Form of the Beast, Feat: Improved Eldritch Heritage (+2 inherent STR) or a different feat, Gain a +2 Gore Attack (Finally!)
13 EH Claws are now Flaming, Feat: ???
15 Bite and Gore are now +3, If EH (Str +4), Feat: ???, Hero’s Feast effects,
Now, this build looks tenfolds more assured to hit. The slow onset of the iterative natural attacks aren’t too bothersome. Few have a chance to hit 4 times at 11th. Nasty quickened touch spells can be applied to hit, especially Inflict Wounds for that Confusion bonus (Touch of Moonn).
There are plenty of vacant feat slots as well (suggestions are welcome)
Gift of claw and horns will be available (3 + Cha x ½ lvl, in ½ lvl increments) per day. 7 rounds of extra bite at 1st lvl is okay, and depending on how well I treat my charisma mod, I will be looking at 70 – 100 rounds per day, which will mean that they are a reliable source of damage.
The Abyssal claws from eldritch heritage, however, is only available for 3 + Cha modifier rounds a day. Assuming a Cha of 28, that’s only 12 rounds per day, which is slightly depressing. The good news is that the bloodline claws would be activated as a free action and do not have to be used consecutively. Which means I’ll have 12 opportunities to dish out some extra damage per day. Might not be too unbalanced? At later levels I might be toying with divine spells and Form of the Beast for most of the duration of encounters, so maybe 12 rounds of claws aren’t too bad? The strength bonus from improved (+2 str at 11th, +4 at 15th) Would remain to. Are the Eldritch feats worth the investment, or should I try to permanently replicate their effect with, perhaps even stronger feats?
Final Thoughts: I think this might be the strongest version of my concept, thus far. Of course, it all comes down to if an Oracle with natural attacks is that strong in general. I’ve thought about building this concept through a Bloodrager or an Antipaladin – Might see how they stack up by comparison. The Full Caster aspect of it, is of course, nice, and considering how much I’ll be reliant on Charisma, I might be able to utilize the spells nicely to.
Hunger
Ravenous hunger wracks your body in stressful situations. You gain none of the benefits from spells or magic items that provide nourishment, such as goodberry, heroes’ feast, or a ring of sustenance. You also gain a bite attack that deals an amount of piercing damage appropriate for your size (1d8 for a Large creature, 1d6 for Medium, 1d4 for Small) as a secondary natural attack. You begin each combat with the sickened condition until you deal damage with your bite attack.
The bite from the Hunger curse is explicitly stated to be a secondary natural attack attack. Unless the way it's written assumes your "primary" will be a manufactured weapon. But I'm not sure if I can just assume that. Not having to take Multiattack would free up a feat, which is always good news.
Speaking of feats, Eldritch heritage would require skill focus as a prereq, which I'm not too keen on, to be honest. The power granted by the orc bloodline "Touch of rage", looks like it applies to other creatures first and foremost, unless you can use this power on yourself? The Abyssal bloodline duplicates what I already have in the build save for the increase in dmg dice and +1d6 flaming, just on a less permanent basis. It would free up some feat slots, but I'm not sure if I want my weapons to be available for a limited number of rounds per day.
As stated in my opening post, I'm not really big on animal companions. Just personal taste, I guess, even though it would no doubt be good dmg potential.
Even if Form of the Beast is a lesser beast shape, I see a lot of fun potential with it, if it could be combined with Righteous Might.
I am aware of the table, but I'm not sure if my GM would allow me to pick from it at my own leisure. I actually tried rolling once, as per the rules, and got 84 - immunity to sleep & paralysis. All though, I thought the items on the table replaced the tiefling spell-like ability, which is what you switch out for the maw&claw trait? So to my understanding, you can't get both claw and bite from tiefling racial abilities, alone.
As for the evil part, it has mostly to do with the worship of Urgathoa, neutral evil goddess of gluttony, disease and undeath. There's been a recent push for an evil pc adventure at our table and I wanted to create something monstrous. I've also been interested in conceptual characters that worship an evil deity, justifying that belief and still is able to work alongside a typical party. I have a build for a Zon-Kuthon worshipper in the works, as well. That, and my group has given me flack for my tendency to play virtuous neutral good characters with a bleeding heart for NPCs, questioning the moral grounds of their own character choices.
Thank you for the clarification. More Natural Attacks are the way to go, it seems. I tried to dabble with a straight Lunar Oracle build. I hope I haven't fumbled the rules again. A little worried about the attack bonus, but what can you do..
My Prospecting:
NE Tiefling Oracle of Lunar mystery
Curse: Hunger
Racial: Claw & Maw + some other fun Tiefling Traits.
Str: 18 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int:8 Wis: 10 Cha: 18
Trait: Fate’s Favoured, Corpse Cannibal, Magical Lineage (Divine Favor), Drawback: Foul Brand
Oracle: 1. Lunar Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Gift of Claw & Horn Feat: Multiattack
Hear me out on the multiattack. If I choose to interpet Gift of Claw & Horn favorably, I’m looking at this attack spread at lvl 1
Keep in mind the bite is important for the free grapple at lvl 5 + overcoming the sickened part of the curse. My AC would only come from armor, though. Fortunately it is implied that we won’t start at lvl 1.
Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Fumbletongue
Oracle 3: Revelation: Prophetic Armor, Feat: Power Attack
Oracle 4: Mystery Spell: Dust of Twilight
Oracle 5: Bite with free Grab (smaller creatures*), Feat: Quicken Spell
Oracle 6: Mystery Spell: Rage (Now we're talking?)
Oracle 7: Revelation: Touch of the Moon, Feat: Cornugon Smash
Assuming no enhancements to strength or charisma, we’re now looking at (With Divine Favor, Power Attack, Rage, WF not included):
Takes a while to set up, AB is not the greatest, AC now comes from Armor + PA (+Ring + Nat. Arm. Amulet?)
Oracle 8: Mystery Spell: Moonstruck
Oracle 9: Feat: Eldritch Claws (Natural attacks treated as Magic/Silver)
Oracle 10: Mystery Spell: Aspect of the Wolf (A nice buff)
(There will have been enhancements to STR and CHA by now, but I’m not gonna count them, Aspect of the Wolf, Divine Favor, Power Attack, Righteous Might Spell)
Claws now bypass most dmg reduction. AC will be helped by Righteous Might and what is probably enhancement to AC.
So this would probably be a straight forward Oracle way to build it. What’s the verdict on this?
==============================================
As for multiclassing, I’m wondering what one dip in Unchained Scaled Fist at second lvl would do for the build. It would technically allow me to add my Charisma to AC Twice for one.
+4 Cha (Monk) +4 Cha (Dex, PA) + 2 Nat. Armor from RM or Amulet, Bracers of Armor (No regular armor needed) +2 Magic Vestment on regular, Potion of Shield, Ring of protection clothing. Any enhancement to Charisma would count twice.
Better Bab, Better Saves, Dragon Style (Which will help my first attack) and open up for Dragon Ferocity. It would offset everything by one lvl, though.
If I were to rethink the build, A couple of levels in Antipaladin for Cha to saves, better Bab along the way, Touch of corruption, Chance to use spiked armor for those grabs, could be fun too, but that would be prospecting for another day. If Straight Oracle, maybe go Antipaladin from lvl 10 and onwards, getting some extend metamagic for Righteous Might.
Vast majority immune to fear? Not as far as ~CR 15 anyway, I'm not sure beyond that. Though it'd depend on your GM I guess. Or the adventure path - I'm barely familiar with a few of the lower levels of those and have no knowledge of higher levels.
Quote:
Hunger
Ravenous hunger wracks your body in stressful situations. You gain none of the benefits from spells or magic items that provide nourishment, such as goodberry, heroes’ feast, or a ring of sustenance. You also gain a bite attack that deals an amount of piercing damage appropriate for your size (1d8 for a Large creature, 1d6 for Medium, 1d4 for Small) as a secondary natural attack. You begin each combat with the sickened condition until you deal damage with your bite attack.
Either fear-immunity or something that precludes it such as immunity or a strong resistance to mind-affecting effects (like intimidation). In the first adventure path I ever played, after my friend's character died, my friend decided he wanted to make an intimidation build that. He didn't get to use those feats in practically any significant encounter from then on. Granted this was part four of six and we were (unknown to us) wading into a pretty undead/construct heavy part of the path. We were inexperienced, and didn't know exactly how much our GM loved H.R. Giger-esque body horror.
Maybe that's what put me off such a build. Same goes for the Sneak-Attack reliant rogues. The fear that a majority of my build will be largely negated in the later parts of a long-term game. It's part of the reason why I considered Anti-Paladin, due to their aura of courage suppressing such resistances. It's also part of the reason for why I wanted to play an Oracle Natural Attacker. Largely because the hunger curse is very flavorful to Urgathoa, but also because I feel it won't put all my eggs in one basket. Physical attacks being negated? Cast spells.
Darche Schneider wrote:
If you're up for dual cursed or other forms, there is Wolf-scarred as well that improves your bite attack and gives you access to the natural weapon increasing spells. Just have to figure out a way to deal with the whole 20% fail rate.
I considered this. Or the dual-curse in general. Particularly the Plagued curse as the non-progressing one as it grants immunity to the sickened condition, which is a part of the hunger curse. But the reason why I love Oracles are to how flavor-heavy their classes are. I feel the curses are there to expand on your role-playing. Having a constantly hungering worshipper of Urgathoa, to the point where she'd rip into her opponents flesh with her teeth and claws sounded very thematic to me, and I kind of want it there. Wolf-scarred provides an alternative, but I'd rather take a -2 penalty until I'm able to successfully land a bite attack (hoping to mitigate it with Divine Favor and other buffs) than a threat of constant 20% spell-failiure (which isn't nearly as thematic).
Minigiant wrote:
I have to ask, at its core concept, what is it you want to do?
You want a natural attacker? Or you want a Tiefling? A Monk?
I'm just picking up mixed messages
Thank you for this question. If I'm sending mixed messages, it's probably because (like I said in my first post) I'm a 100% natural attack noob. I'll try to clarify:
- Yes, I want to play a Tiefling. Yes, I want to play a natural attacker. No, the monk doesn't have to be a part of it.
- I wondered if it was possible to make a viable build with the hunger Oracle's bite and the claws the Tiefling receive from their alternate racial trait "Maw or Claw"
- Evidently, I'm not completely schooled on the rules of natural attacks. I wondered how they'd work (thus, all my questions regarding action economy) and what feats would support it. Will I get claw/claw/bite, at what AB and so forth.
- I'd love to include Oracle mainly due to the flavor of the hunger curse and build a natural attacker around it. I also feel it would make me less of a one-trick pony. I considered a 1 lvl Scaled Fist UC Monk-dip only because it opens up for a lot of the feats I thought were necessary to make the Oracle a viable natural attacker (e.g. Monk 1/Oracle X). The synergies with Charisma doesn't hurt either.
- At it's core, thematically, I want a tiefling (monstrous acts from a monstrous-deemed race?) worshipper of Urgathoa, hunger-stricken to the point of tearing into her opponents flesh with her bite and claws. So Natural attacks are a priority. Oracle, apart from the flavor of the hunger curse, would supply spells that would make the build less dependent on one form of offense.
Occult mystery seems cool. Ectoplasmic Armor revelation would be nice if I dip a level in Monk. As does Spirit Walk. But regarding Phantom Touch... Aren't a vast majority of enemies immune to fear-effects lategame-ish? Seems like there would be diminishing returns for the feats required to take revelation strike.
Also, I'm wondering if any of you pros could weigh in on my understanding of natural attacks.
Would I actually get this or a variation thereof at lvl 1?
+5 claw/1d4+4
+5 claw/1d4+4
+4 Bite/1d6+4
+4 Gore/1d6+4
As for AC, CHA bonus, Ectoplasmic Armor, Magic Vestment, Ring of Protection, Natural Armor amulet, Possible dex modifier and more, should rack up the AC fairly well, right?
I also see that you can't take Strange Revelation til you have Knowledge (Religion) 5.
Strange Revelation is 3rd party, you are aware of that right?
Lunar Mystery does get you a 4th Natural Attack (Gore) - Gift of Claw and Horn (Su)
1) Oops, that one slipped by me! I'm on a roll today, yikes!
2) I did consider Gift of Claw and Horn, though I wondered if it was a bit redundant as I already have claws? All though the +1 enhancement at 5th, 10th, 15th, and so on is always nice. What will I do at 11th when I'm granted yet another Natural attack from this revelation? Perhaps an additional claw swipe at the GM's discretion? A tail slap?
So, say I take this revelation at 1st lvl, 18 str, hunger curse, and my first lvl feat is Weapon Focus (Claws), would a full-round attack equate to this?
If so, that's absolutely relentlessly gross at first level. I almost refuse to believe that I've understood the rules correctly. It will, of course, scale down with levels, but still...
3) Considering avr's recommendations with Feral Combat Training and Revelation Strike (Which is probably best for Touch of the moon in the Lunar Mystery?), it does sound very feat intensive. Might look at a level of Scaled Fist Monk. While I absolutely loathe having to delay Oracle progression, it does net me a few things:
The good:
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Stunning Fist
- Dragon Style, Improved Grapple or Intimidating Prowess (Intimidate +12 at lvl 1, anyone?!)
- Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Perception, Perform, Ride, Stealth & Swim as class skills, many of which serve my ability scores.
- Our GM allows certain archetypes with Unchained Monk, which means Bab+1 (Power Attack as first feat?)
The so-so
- Delayed spells
- Cha to AC While armorless (Prophetic Armor will feel more like a shoddy repair than an actual investment)
- Would have to be LE (All though, as I wouldn't necessarily return to monk, maybe not?)
... Considering the redundancy, maybe there is an even better mystery for me out there that's neither Lunar nor battle? One with a lot of touch spells? I hear Dark Tapestries is nice.
It seems that I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, all though I feel like we're getting somewhere. I see now, that Righteous Might is a way to enlarge as Tiefling and it unlocks for Battle Oracles at lvl 10, but would otherwise also be an available spell for the Oracle at the same lvl, meaning I am in no way married to the Battle Mystery.
There is probably a way to make room for Feral Combat Training and Revelation Strike, taking advantage of "Touch of the Moon" from the Lunar Mystery and other nasty afflictions in my attacks, which is probably more in line with what I wanted to begin with, as opposed to the self-buffs of the Battle Oracle.
I also see that you can't take Strange Revelation til you have Knowledge (Religion) 5.
Right now, my mind is fried from thinking I've been on the right track only to stumble at the finish line more than once, but like I said, I feel like we're getting somewhere. At least making builds is fun!
I guess keeping with the Oracle is strictly better...
Still uncertain about what a build progression would look like. Mainly looking to make a natural attack build into something gruesome, versatile and lasting (e.g. work for late game)
Female NE Tiefling
Lunar Oracle (Figured Battle spells such as Enlarge person Wouldn't do me much favors as a Tiefling)
25 point-buy
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary, Corpse Cannibal, Drawback: Foul Brand
Primary: 2 Claws (Maw or Claw)
Secondary: Bite (Hunger curse)
Question: As I've understood it, Natural attacks are made with highest bab, and thus won't get a second round once bab passes +6. So a Fullround attack will be +5 claw/+5 claw/+4 bite, even at lvl 1 in this build? If so, is there a way to eventually get more?
Some Lunar Oracle dabbling:
Oracle: 1. Lunar Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Prophetic Armor (Cha to AC) Feat: Weapon Focus Claws
Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Fumbletongue
Oracle 3: Revelation: Touch of the Moon (Prepare Inflict Wounds 1 round and deliver it as touch attack causing confusion?), Feat: Power Attack
Oracle 4: Mystery Spell: Dust of Twilight
Oracle 5: Bite with free Grab (smaller creatures*), Feat: Quicken Magic (For all those spells/self-buffs I eventually want to bring into Melee)
Oracle 6: Mystery Spell: Rage (Now we're talking?)
Oracle 7: Feat: Strange Revelation: Battle Revelation: Resiliency (Diehard bonus feat for rage) or Maneuver Master (Improved Grapple bonus feat?), Iron skin (DR 10/Adamantine?)
Oracle 8: Mystery Spell: Moonstruck
Oracle 9: Feat: Eldritch Claws (Natural attacks treated as Magic/Silver)
Oracle 10: Mystery Spell: Aspect of the Wolf (A nice buff)
Oracle 11: Revelation: Form of the beast (*Would the hunger bite's grab work now that I can turn into a large creature?) Feat: Improved Natural Attack? Cornugon Smash?
I dunno where to go from here.
** Multiclassing Bloodrager 4 with Abyssal Bloodline sounded sweet as a way to enlarge a Tiefling for that Free Grab-Bite.
I could go Oracle (Battle) 3 or 5/Bloodrager 4/Oracle X
Maybe Kyton-Tiefling for 16 Con this time around.
Some Battle Oracle/Bloodrager mess:
1. Oracle 1: Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Prophetic Armor (Cha to AC) Feat: Strange Revelation: Lunar
2. Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Enlarge person (for my person buddies?)
3. Oracle 3: Revelation: Maneuver Master (Improved Grapple), Feat: Power Attack
4. Oracle 4: Mystery Spell: Fog Cloud
5. Oracle 5: Bite with free Grab (smaller creatures*), Feat: Weapon Focus: Claws
6. Bloodrager 1: Bloodline: Abyssal, Bloodline Power: Magic Claws during rage (50% redunant), Fast Movement (Always nice)
7. Bloodrager 2: Uncanny dodge, Feat: Extra Revelation: Resiliency (Diehard)
8. Bloodrager 3: Blood Sanctuary (Maybe an archetype can change this?)
9. Bloodrager 4: Bloodline power: Demonic Bulk (Enlarge!!!), Eschew Materials, Bloodcasting (Maybe something cool here, I dunno), Feat: Extra Revelation: One of the battle ones I didn't pick
10. Oracle 6: Mystery Spell: Magic Vestment (blah)
11. Oracle 7: Feat: Cornugon smash? Improved Natural Attacks? Something grapple-y? Extra rage? Extra revelation? Armor of the Pit (+2 Natural AC)
12. Oracle 8: Mystery Spell: Wall of Fire
14. Oracle 9: Feat: ???
15. Oracle 10: Mystery Spell: Righteous Might (Right this instant, I realized that this can enlarge a Tiefling just fine... So maybe a straight Battle Oracle, after all? Too lazy to rewrite now..)
16. Oracle 11: Revelation: ?? Feat: ???
Or
1. Oracle 1: Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Prophetic Armor (Cha to AC) Feat: Strange Revelation: Lunar
2. Oracle 2: Mystery Spell: Fumbletongue
3. Oracle 3: Revelation: Maneuver Master (Improved Grapple), Feat: Power Attack
4. Bloodrager 1: Bloodline: Abyssal, Bloodline Power: Magic Claws during rage (50% redunant), Fast Movement (Always nice)
5. Bloodrager 2: Uncanny dodge, Feat: Extra Revelation: Resiliency (Diehard) or Weapon Focus (Claws)
6. Bloodrager 3: Blood Sanctuary (Maybe an archetype can change this?)
7. Bloodrager 4: Bloodline power: Demonic Bulk (Enlarge!!!), Eschew Materials, Bloodcasting (Maybe something cool here, I dunno), Feat: Extra Revelation: Something cool from Battle, Free grab from hunger curse comes online here right on time.
Seconding the "Dandy" Ranger-archetype. You can forego Dex requirements that way and focus on strength. Otherwise, your feat progression will probably be fully occupied with the typical TWF feats.
Human Ranger
New ramifications for this build. Disregard what I wrote
You can't take Dpuble Slice @ 3 because you don't have a Dex of 15... same with Two Weapon Defense @ 5.
The typical skip Dex Ranger Combat Style feats are TWF @ 2, Imp. TWF @ 6, Two Weapon Rend @ 10...
Well, if my face isn't red...?
Guess that's going to be a bit harsher on the stat spread then.
Str: 15 (17) Dex: 15 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 13 Cha: 10
Or Wis: 12, Cha: 11 if you want to qualify for Fey Magic. Offensive spells not recommended with that cha, obviously.
First ability point into str, second into wis - Prioritize Strength improving items, and maybe an amulet for Wis down the line?
Seconding the "Dandy" Ranger-archetype. You can forego Dex requirements that way and focus on strength. Otherwise, your feat progression will probably be fully occupied with the typical TWF feats.
Human Ranger
(Assuming 20 point buy)
Str: 15 (17) Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 13 Cha: 14 (Versatile spread with some CHA for the roleplaying and spellcasting. Alter as you wish, but keep Strength and Con where they are at minimum.)
1. Power-Attack, Weapon Focus: (You given weapon)
2. Ranger Combat style: TWF
3. Double Slice
4.
5. Two Weapon Defense
6. Ranger Combat style: Improved TWF
7. Cleave?
9. Iron Will?
10 Combat style: Greater TWF
11 Two Weapon Rend
13: Great Cleave?
With that CHA you could consider the human alternate racial trait "Fey magic" for three 0-level druid spells & one 1st level druid spell. When in your favored terrain, these can be used as SLA. You also get two free class (selected form a list) and lowlight-vision.
Regular ranger might work just as well with some flavor, traits for class skills and such. Foregoing Wisdom doesn't bode well for the ranger's weak will save.
True, that would probably only be relevant if I decided to play or include levels from an LE Monk. Which isn't totally out of the question.
Then there's Weapon focus (Claw/Bite). Eldritch claws for magic claws?
I get that the idea is to get iterative attacks with stacking static dmg or effects. Monk sounds ideal in that regard. It's just kind of hard to parse what's essential or what's a logical progression for such a build through wall of text reddit posts, suggesting a plethora of feats.
Say I were to go
Toying with some stats, not sure what I'm doing:
Female NE Tiefling (Asura/Fault-Spawn. Or possibly Demodand for Con instead of Dex?)
(25 point buy, no dumping, 17 highest)
Str: 10 Dex: 17 (19) Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 14 (16) Cha: 12
+ Agile amulet of mighty fists
1. Oracle - Battle Mystery, Hunger Curse, Revelation: Iron Skin, Feat: Weapon Focus: Claws
2. UC Monk - Flurry, IUS, Stunning Fist, Bonus: Combat Reflexes
3. UC Monk - Evasion, Bonus: Improved Grapple, Feral Combat Training
4. UC Monk - Fast Movement, Ki Pool, Ki Strike
5. UC Monk - Ki Power: ?, Still Mind, Feat: Kraken Style
Oracle/AntiPaladin:
Would be kind of cool to deliver touch of corruption or cruelties through devastating natural attacks.
So, what's this? The 100th thread on natural attacks? Pardon my cheekiness. I've tried to scout the web for threads on this for a few hours now, but haven't really come up with anything conclusive. I will gladly delete this post, if I'm directed towards any of the threads I haven't read..
I'll try to be quick. Started pondering about playing a follower of Urgathoa, and with Oracle being my favorite class, the hunger (gluttony) curse came to mind. I love the flavor of curses.
It provides a bite, which will eventually lead into a free grab. Then the Tiefling's alternate racial "Maw or Claw" which offers two claws as primary attacks came along.
1) My first Question: Can the two be combined in a build somehow? I'm a complete noob as far as natural attacks go. I figured it went something like this;
Bab 1-5
Standard action: 1d6 Bite OR 1d4+1d4 claws
Bab 6-x
Full-round action: 1d6 Bite AND 1d4+1d4 claws
etc.
2) My second question: How do I take this further?
Feats: Improved Natural Attacks, Power Attack, Feral Combat Training?
Classes: Oracle dip? LE Monk? Barbarian? Rage Prophet? Even considered Bloatmage, even though I doubt they mesh with melee builds. I'd actually love an antipaladin delivering cruelties through natural attacks. Or some nasty monk style feats.
What I don't like: Animal companions (Going for a crazed loner type as an initial characterization), Alchemist potions for extra limbs (Barely looks cool on paper IMO, plus I want this character to be feral - not the type to think of strange brews and concoctions)
Character Fluff:
An unwanted Tiefling child, adopted and brought up in a cult, literally starved and depraved of any natural interaction in order to unleash a ferocious, amoral being of carnal desire into the world
I think it's important to note that evil is not nice. At least not to everyone. And most instances, usually only towards the evil character in question.
But evil and good aren't flat descriptors. A lawful evil character might be able to work well with a lawful neutral character (and to some extent a lawful good character), than say a lawful neutral character might get along with a chaotic good character. They would agree that there is an order to things. At our table we usually say that the evil one is "just willing to step over a whole lot more bodies, torture, gloat about revenge, steal, lie etc." They've simply set the bar for what they can do much lower. They may even have a common goal, and might have reached an agreement that they need each other to reach that goal - to which the evil character might begrudgingly agree to respect some of the good characters rules. E.g how Daredevil and Punisher teams up in season 2 of Netflix' Daredevil. That's how a party usually gets along.
I won't dwell on alignment types too much. I've heard it's its own can of worms. My point is that there is always room for dynamics. Such as evil characters with actual emotions. As I just mentioned in another thread, I love playing evil characters who love someone. Be it a person, their family, a cause. Like the Kingpin and Vanessa (Again, Daredevil).
I had an evil character (NE) who loved ballet once. The theater he was in got attacked, to which he flew in furious rage against the attackers. I knew there were a lot of heinous acts he wouldn't bat an eye over. But how could they even dare to ruin such art? And worse, ruin his experience of it - his deep thoughts and reflections over his own miserable life - severed by these ingrates. This might sound silly in hindsight, but at the table, it was kind of a testament to his character. It was the first time he actually showed to have cared for something, and his idea of retribution was of course, a very bloody revenge.
Thank you for the suggestions! A Bard might not get all the way to the 9th lvl spells, but it would certainly improve the amount of arcane magic available. Also, while Sarenrae is a recurring spiritual thread for most of these characters due to their parents (our characters from a previous campaign) following the Dawnflower, not everyone follows the goddess. While mapping out the new line up, I thought I'd give a little look into the spiritual base of the party, just for fun :)
Human Sword/Shield - Brute (Agnostic - Not sure what I want with the gods or what they would want with me. Can't I just be me for a while and see?)
Half Orc Shaman - Controller/Combat (Sarenrae mostly. A little Gorum/Orc ancestral exploration to spice up the identity crisis)
Half Orc Flame Dancer - Buffer/Striker (Sarenrae worshipper. Scholarly and content with her own religious guiding wisdom.)
Human Alchemist/Empiricist/Wizard(??) - Skill Monkey/Arcane(?) (Might Worship Erastil or Abadar out of tradition due to merchant upbringing. Might have discovered Brigh: https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Brigh)
Aasimar Oradin - Healer/Combat (Studies Sarenrae with a Paladin order, hoping to give her direction. Might not be the best student, but tries.)
Tiefling Monk, Brawler or Bloodrager - Brute (None. But might admire Norgorbers pragmatic nature)
So it's a 3/6 for the dawnflower really, though I suspect her values will be influencing the party a lot.
An "Oradin" is an oracle (life mystery) multiclassed with a Paladin (with the hospitaler archetype, possibly stacked with Warrior of the Holy light). It's a very effective combat-healer. Thus I thought about making the half-orc Cleric disregard healing and open up for other needs. This guide would probably explain the premise better than I can: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-O r-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot
And you are pretty much spot on in your assessment. This team looks like it's very capable of healing and going into melee, but have very little in the realm of arcane possibilities. I was also worried that the arcane possibilities of the alchemist and the bloodrager wouldn't be enough. I'm wondering if there's a remedy for that.
On the more fluff side of things (glad you brought it up, by the way!), the "evil" descriptor was probably laying it on a bit thick. He might end up as someone evil-aligned on paper, mainly to describe his motivations and moral scruples. He'd probably be less concerned with what's good and evil, and if actions or people can be good/evil in and of themselves, and more concerned with what gives results. A Norgorber worshiper, possibly? The characters of this party are actually all family (apart from the alchemist who is a childhood friend) - And fortunately for the party though, one of the things the Tiefling actually loves is his family, enough to play ball with their ideals. I kind of like playing evil characters capable of loving and caring about something - and then coming to terms with how they love said person or cause and how it affects them.
Similarly, the Aasimar Paladin/Oracle mechanically has the "Covetous" curse making her, Fey-blooded as she is, easily smitten with materialistic, earthly goods and hedonistic excess which clashes with Sarenrae's virtue of modesty. While I don't think the player intends for her to fall from faith in the meta-game, I think her temptations and convictions might play into the character's portrayal. They might be good and evil on the character sheet, but there's a lot going on between that :)
---
Back to the Crunch, though
I think one option could be to convince the Alchemist/Empiricist to play a Wizard (With a utility edge/focus). That might fill the arcane gap actually. We might still be far too many healers?
EDIT; I've noted Shaman as a possibility for one of the half-orcs! Thank you for bringing up the Fire Shaman as good Sarenrae flavor. We're a bit married to the concepts as you might see, so I'm very glad you took it into consideration! In other threads where I've asked for advice, I've had people almost disregard any thematic interest in favor of optimizing.
I’m looking for some input/feedback on a party of six that’s about to come together. A lot about the characters have already been decided. Races are not up for debate for one. One glaring problem with the current lineup is that there might be too much of a melee-focus and not enough caster-bases covered (especially on the arcane side). I guess what I’m asking for is this: What choices could we make in order to cover the most bases and still keep with the general theme?
I’m presenting the party with the general idea attached, with some brief notes under as to what the current development is.
Human: Sword & Board-build. Bull-rushes and rages.
- Might go for the viking archetype. Might multiclass with Barbarian. Might perhaps go superstitious barbarian with fighter lvls in order to cover Sword & Board Feats. Initially planned as a full martial class.
Half-Orc: 2 hand martial with orc falchion. Possibly battle Cleric?
- Both Gorum and Sarenrae are flavourful deities for the character. Maybe use separatist to mix domains. Not sure which would be the best combo. Might go for Glory domain as it’s available to both Sarenrae and Gorum.
Half-Orc: Inquisitor of Sarenrae. Archer?
- Someone more sneaky. Perhaps Ranger would be a better, less feat intensive choice. Divine spells are a plus. Is the twin sister of the above-mentioned half-orc.
Human: Alchemist or Empiricist Investigator
- A skill monkey. Sort of a tinkering character. Wants to be utility focused.
Aasimar (Agathion-kin – Con/Cha): Straight up Oradin.
This one is pretty much set as the party healer.
Tiefling (Demon-spawn – Str/Cha): Token evil party member.
Initially wanted to be a monk or a brawler. Ability scores suits a bloodrager. Maybe even a magus. Is NOT interested in claws or natural attacks-focus.
Hey, everyone. I'm here again, looking to bring another concept into cold black and white stats! I don't think it's the most unconventional of concepts, fairly straight forward, but still I'd like some pointers in what way to pull it off.
Idea: The concept started with a relentless warrior, one who flew screaming into battle with their opponents swinging at them. At this description alone, I see the barbarian class with it's rage class feature and fast movement as a fitting choice. And more than likely, Improved Bull rush as a feat!
Here, comes the tricky part: I want the character to use a sword and a shield. The warrior archetype swinging a huge heavy knife 75 % the length of their own bodies simply doesn't appeal to me (Guts and Amiri get a pass here, of course). I'd rather have a character who alternately slashes and smashes (or at least uses the shield as part of a bull rush, to knock opponents off their feet).
Now, I am aware that sword/shield-builds are typically feat intensive which is why I'm open to the inclusion of fighter lvls in the build. This makes sense thematically, as the character is noble born, though to a father who was initially an adventuring Ranger. The character is essentially too reckless to not become an adventurer, but would probably still know a thing or to about high society and formal combat training.
A stat block I had in mind that, though far from optimized, would still fit the character is as follows:
Sorry that I can't provide much in terms of a started build as I'm not really sure where to start.
I would love to mainly go for the Barbarian. The tireless blows suits the character's theme. Though, I'm still not adverse to multiclassing in order to get some vital feats in.
Ah! My counting's off it seems. You're completely right in that I wouldn't have BAB +6 until lvl 8! It seems that tripping is not so easy to bake into the build. Metamagic will get more important as the action-economy piles on, so I don't really want to miss out on quicken spell as of lvl 9.
I'm going for three metamagic feats before 15 to invest in Spell Perfection. Quicken and Extend would be nice ones to have and toppling might make a nice addition, but the wording worries me: It seems to imply that the trip check is made solely with CL + Caster mod and doesn't really have much do with your remaining trip bonuses.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on)
We're locked at three traits and one drawback where one the traits would have explicitly be justified by fluff and not too power-gamey. I chose Reckless (+1 Acrobatic as class skill), Reactionary (+2 Initiative) and Survivalist (+5 to wilderness survival). Should anyone be curious, her drawback is Xenophobic; "Never trust a Chelaxian. They are as removed from compassion and humility as they are from nature."
As a Shoanti, I'd argue that bred for war is a very apt fluff based trait (my character is 6'3") - Magical knack would mend some of the damage done by the fighter dip (Which I'm fairly convinced that I'll go for now, thanks guys :D) - While I do see the benefit of Fate's favoured, I still love the idea that my character is likely to make very high rolls in the wilderness just because it's second nature (no pun intended) to her. If it would be a toss between losing one of the three traits, which one would you skip?
I'd like to take the fighter lvl at lvl 2, just to have proficiencies and class skills available from the get go and get me tripping faster. Fortunately it bumps my Bab progression up one lvl, which should net me greater trip only one lvl later than a full bab class.
I guess we're looking at a build closer to this now;
Thanks for the feat suggestions! :) If it's not a bother, I'd love some suggestions regarding which feats to replace in my current set up and at what level.
The character is already in play and the first level is technically set, but since we're taking a small break we were allowed to make minute changes in our builds.
While some might argue that a fighter dip is expensive in and of itself, it seems like there's at least two (and a half, counting myself) who's in favor of it :)
BadBird; Investing in tripping feats still isn't costless though. While a fighter dip does free up two feat slots, I'd need at least three for tripping, won't I (Dirty Fighting -> Improved Trip -> Greater Trip)? Where would you reccomend that I place these feats in the levelling progression?
Oops! That should have been Combat reflexes, not expertise..!
The Guisarme is a good tip that might factor into the fighter route, should I choose that one. I hadn't really planned on going for tripping, but it's certainly a way to control the battlefield. I just worry that I might not have enough feats, unless I skip the preferred spell route.
I'm playing a human Cleric of Gozreh with the Growth Domain in our current campaign. I originally went for a reach build, but I'm looking to do battlefield control as well through summons among other things.
Character theme: A Shoanti "Warrior Shaman". Reach build w. Longspear goes well with fluff. As does summons which could represent ancestral images or totem beasts. The extra skill points of the Herald Caller would help to portray her as someone with the skills of a wilderness upbringing.
Party set up: Buff-focused Bard, Human Slayer, Orc Fighter - Thus, a Battlefield Control Cleric might not be the worst addition?
Multiclassing: I considered a dip in Fighter to regain armor proficiency, but medium armor prof might do the trick if Mithril heavy comes into play. The bonus feat is always welcome, of course, and unlocking class skills such as Climb, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Engineering), Ride, Survival and Swim as are pretty much thematically appropriate for a Shoanti to have as class skills.
Human Reach Cleric (Herald Caller) of Gozreh
Alternate racial trait: Heart of the Fey - Grants Lowlight Vision, +1 to Ref and Will saves and Perception and Knowledge (Nature) as class skills. Suits the fluff of a "wilderness Cleric". Replaces Skilled.
Or, an alternate route with a Fighter Dip. Delays the good stuff by one level, but frees up TWO feat slots, nets me heavy armor prof instead of just medium as the straight cleric build would have gone for, and hands me tons of thematically delicious class skills. Still not sure if worth..
*Some suggestions for what these feats might be spent on. Improved Initiative/Heighten Spell is the most likely pick as it opens up for Preferred Spell at fifth. If you're wondering why there is no sacred summons, it's because Gozreh is true neutral and I understand there is little to benefit from there.
Oops, that would be WIS: 16 in the post above. We're running a 25 point buy where we are not allowed to dump ability scores below 10.
The idea is pretty much to run a Longspear wielding reach build, where she moves into a position where she's likely to trigger AoO (Easer with Growth domain's Enlarge Person giving her a 20 ft. threatened area) as a way to dish out melee damage and using her standard actions to cast spells. It seems like a very action economy friendly strategy which also bridges the Cleric's early level martial reliance with her late level caster capabilities rather nicely.
Pondering this further, getting rid of the Wolf Domain all-together.
Raksha Akeela of Lyrune Quah (Moon clan)
Female Human (Shoanti) Cleric of Gozreh/Totem 1
STR: 16 Dex: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 Wis: 14 CHA: 10
Heart of the Fey: Grants Low-light vision, +1 to ref and will saves and Knowledge (Nature) and Perception as class skills.
Domains: Growth/Night Domain
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Reckless (+1 Acrobatcs as class skill)
Survivalist (+5 to survival in the wilderness)
Drawback: Overprotective or Xenophobic
The Shaman is definitely fitting for my theme, but as this is my first full divine casting character, I'd like to go for the "prototype" (the Cleric), to familiarize myself with the concept, spell lists and possibilities etc. and then check out "deviations" on a later occasion.
I'm wasn't initially looking to use an animal companion. Never really cared for the feature, all though there might be advantages I'm overseeing. I opted out of using one on my ranger (utilizing the Guide archetype myself). I guess I'm against using the feature as I 1) afraid the creature will die far too easily and hinder my prowess and 2) not really keen on role playing the animal tagging along. Lumbering around with a giant wolf in an urban setting seems a little much.
The Flagbearer feat looks awesome. Though I should probably have informed you that our party will feature a bard making any morale bonus I pump out on the team mitigated by the bards bread and butter; inspire courage. The party appears to have this combination as of now;
Orc Fighter (Expecting heavy melee output)
Human Slayer (Grave Warden archetype, going for a Van Helsing theme)
Gnome Bard (Vanilla Bard, Crossbow focus)
Human Cleric (Me, Shoanti themed, longspear wielding)
As the first two should be able to dish out decent melee on a fairly consistent basis fueled by the gnome bards buffing, I figured my niche would be other forms of support, i.e. using the growth domain's enlarge person and trigger AoOs with my longspear and use my standard actions for casting battle control spells (stone wall seems thematically fitting) or battle hazard spells.
At level 9 you might prefer some combat feat with +6 BAB required - greater trip or lunge. If you're going to get a metamagic feat I'd suggest something more offensive.
What spell are you planning to use with preferred - aspect of the wolf, or what?
Aspect of the Wolf is the intended, spell yes.
And those offensive feats seems like a good inclusion.
Though I might reconsider domains. As it stands, I'm looking to do more battlefield control and support. Was briefly checking out the Night domain, finding it interesting.
In general I'm looking to build a cleric that can fill in some of the utility that the Rangers have in regards to survival, perception, knowledge (nature) and perhaps even acrobatics. I'm someone that's adapted to living in the wild.
as pointed out all of the good reach/tripping weapons are martial weapons. So, in that line you have two options, you can either spend a feat to gain proficiency in it or you can take a one level dip in fighter.
A third option would be to find a god with a reach weapon as their favored weapon, but there aren't any that combine access to the Growth sub-domain and a favored weapon with reach, as far as I can tell.
And the Separatist archetype, a possible fix (since it lets you choose a non-traditional domain), specifically doesn't grant a favored weapon, so that's neatly boxed off... Grr!
The Growth domain is associated with Gozreh who's favored weapon is a trident which has 10 ft. reach, I think?
Also, this was permitted for me to use: http://karzoug.info/srd/archetypes/cleric/ShoantiShaman.htm
It sort of renders the separatist archetype moot, unless you were hoping to combine other domains than the ones listed as Shoanti totems.
I've settled for the Growth domain. That really was a catch! The build I planned on following actually had a convoluted way of acquiring Enlarge Person and this solves it, freeing up a few levels. The Cleric might not be proficient with martial weapons, but Gozreh's divine weapon happens to be the Trident - close enough?
I also decided on boosting Wisdom over Strength. Fighter dip is tempting (More feats to round out the character) - though I fear I'll regret it when I have to postpone the 4th and 5th level spells. Decisions, Decisions..
