Still going through my copy of the GMG and noticed something that I found odd about the vehicle rules. Is it just me, or do the passenger numbers for many vehicles seem a bit... small?
For example, a Carriage is only set for 2 passengers the same as a Wagon. Considering a Carriage is 4x more expensive & has slightly higher piloting DCs, I'm not sure why you'd ever want to use one over a cheaper Wagon. Not to mention that since Carriages where listed as one of the transportation expenses in the CRB, I would have assumed they were something that could be used to at least transport an entire standard party of 4 PCs.
Speaking of which... I notice no common land-base vehicle in the GMG has enough passenger load listed to transport a full party. A heavy chariot could technically manage as long as one of the PCs was piloting, but that's it. Am I the only one who finds this strange/annoying?
Still going through my copy of the GMG and noticed something that I found odd about the vehicle rules. Is it just me, or do the passenger numbers for many vehicles seem a bit... small?
For example, a Carriage is only set for 2 passengers the same as a Wagon. Considering a Carriage is 4x more expensive & has slightly higher piloting DCs, I'm not sure why you'd ever want to use one over a cheaper Wagon. Not to mention that since Carriages where listed as one of the transportation expenses in the CRB, I would have assumed they were something that could be used to at least transport an entire standard party of 4 PCs.
Speaking of which... I notice no common land-base vehicle in the GMG has enough passenger load listed to transport a full party. A heavy chariot could technically manage as long as one of the PCs was piloting, but that's it. Am I the only one who finds this strange/annoying?
Carriages are fancy vehicles for rich people, not bulk transports.
Speaking of which... I notice no common land-base vehicle in the GMG has enough passenger load listed to transport a full party. A heavy chariot could technically manage as long as one of the PCs was piloting, but that's it. Am I the only one who finds this strange/annoying?
Passengers is how many seats there are, not how many people you can carry: for instance a pickup truck can carry more people than that seats by people riding in the bed of the truck. With a medium creature being 6 bulk and small being 3 bulk means you can stack 16 medium and 1 small creature into a wagon without touching passengers.
Considering a Carriage is 4x more expensive & has slightly higher piloting DCs, I'm not sure why you'd ever want to use one over a cheaper Wagon
Status: what noble wants to ride around is some peasant vehicle? That and it's more than twice as sturdy [40hp vs a wagon's 18].
Carriages are fancy vehicles for rich people, not bulk transports.
Carriages cover a wide variety of vehicles. Considering they're listed as a basic service in the CRB (2sp per 5 miles), I'd imagine the default is expected to be less than a noble's gilded carriage (which I'd also expect to cost more than 100gp, though Pathfinder's economy has always been weird for anything not magical/combat-based).
Passengers is how many seats there are, not how many people you can carry: for instance a pickup truck can carry more people than that seats by people riding in the bed of the truck. With a medium creature being 6 bulk and small being 3 bulk means you can stack 16 medium and 1 small creature into a wagon without touching passengers.
This still strikes me as weird. One of the default basic land transportation services from the CRB only has 2 seats for passengers? Is a standard group of PCs expected to pay for 2 carriages for transportation unless they want some of them to be packed like cargo in the back? (And you only know this if you check the GMG because the CRB doesn't say anything?)
Status: what noble wants to ride around is some peasant vehicle? That and it's more than twice as sturdy [40hp vs a wagon's 18].
Again, I'd find 100gp far too cheap if it is meant to be a status thing, considering a decent number of gems can easily exceed that. As for it having a bit more AC & twice the HP... meh. Neither seem particularly durable or designed for combat, so I don't think a bit more defense makes much of a difference.
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One of the default basic land transportation services from the CRB only has 2 seats for passengers?
Not likely. Those are likely coaches which are larger vehicles than the basic carriages and wagons: Carriage generally refers to personal use vehicles or the equivalent of modern 'taxis'.
Again, I'd find 100gp far too cheap if it is meant to be a status thing, considering a decent number of gems can easily exceed that.
That's base cost for the vehicle: The richer the person, the more you tape on it: Like "a decent number of gems" on it. Artistic carvings, gold filigree and the like aren't basics.
One of the default basic land transportation services from the CRB only has 2 seats for passengers?Not likely. Those are likely coaches which are larger vehicles than the basic carriages and wagons: Carriage generally refers to personal use vehicles or the equivalent of modern 'taxis'.
Except the CRB does not have an entry for coaches under basic services. There are only 4 entries there, one of which is "Carriage."
Transportation (per 5 miles)
Caravan 3 cp
Carriage 2 sp
Ferry or riverboat 4 cp
Sailing ship 6 cp
So while it is certainly true that the word can generally be used as you described, that does not seem to be how paizo is using it here. Instead it seems more like the general (vague) definition of a four-wheeled passenger vehicle pulled by two or more horses. Unless they just used the wrong word in the CRB of course - because otherwise the CRB and GMG both refer to a "carriage" without further description, so I don't see how they could be interpreted as different things.
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Except the CRB does not have an entry for coaches under basic services. There are only 4 entries there, one of which is "Carriage."
Yes, I'm quite aware of what the core book said: what I'm saying if that it's not in line with the new vehicle rules or real life terms for those things. I doubt they where too particular with those terms when more important things needed worked on in the book.
So while it is certainly true that the word can generally be used as you described, that does not seem to be how paizo is using it here.
Actually, the newest rules DO follow it: it just the core book. A carriage WAS the type of vehicle where 2 passengers made sense.
Instead it seems more like the general (vague) definition of a four-wheeled passenger vehicle pulled by two or more horses.
Not so with the new rules: it's now a term used for a 2 passenger vehicle.
Unless they just used the wrong word in the CRB of course - because otherwise the CRB and GMG both refer to a "carriage" without further description, so I don't see how they could be interpreted as different things.
I'd say that the core is in error now: they most likely weren't thinking too deeply about it at the time and/or the person who made the vehicle rules wasn't thinking about the services chart. In any case, I'm going to trust the specific entry in the section specifically about vehicles over an single chart entry about travel costs.
A carriage WAS the type of vehicle where 2 passengers made sense.
Some carriages, yes. Otherwise, carriage can be used categorically to refer to four wheeled vehicles used to carry people (as opposed to wagons primarily carrying goods) and include things like coaches (which you mentioned earlier) being a subcategory.
I'd say that the core is in error now: they most likely weren't thinking too deeply about it at the time and/or the person who made the vehicle rules wasn't thinking about the services chart. In any case, I'm going to trust the specific entry in the section specifically about vehicles over an single chart entry about travel costs.
Which would bring me back to the original issue I was having - in that there does not appear to be any common land-based vehicle in the GMG designed to accommodate transporting a decent number of people. At best, the Heavy Chariot is made for 3 passengers, but nothing to accommodate a full party (& if the CRB is wrong like you say, then you have to pay for 2 carriages to transport a party).
Part of why I'm having an issue with this is because one of my first thoughts* in what situation I'd need to use vehicle rules would be if the party purchased the transportation service to travel, and then got attacked on the way with the NPC driver being wounded and a PC needing to step up to take the reins. CRB says that vehicle would likely be a carriage, GMG carriage statblock only lists 2 passengers. Looked for a substitute vehicle that could transport a full party and find that only airships & boats have enough passengers listed. The fact that the GMG Vehicle rules don't seem to support any common land-based vehicle designed to transport groups of people seems wrong & strange to me.
[*Okay, my actual first thought was how I'd try to use these rules for chariot racing, but this was my second thought.]
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Which would bring me back to the original issue I was having - in that there does not appear to be any common land-based vehicle in the GMG designed to accommodate transporting a decent number of people. At best, the Heavy Chariot is made for 3 passengers, but nothing to accommodate a full party (& if the CRB is wrong like you say, then you have to pay for 2 carriages to transport a party).
Part of why I'm having an issue with this is because one of my first thoughts* in what situation I'd need to use vehicle rules would be if the party purchased the transportation service to travel, and then got attacked on the way with the NPC driver being wounded and a PC needing to step up to take the reins. CRB says that vehicle would likely be a carriage, GMG carriage statblock only lists 2 passengers. Looked for a substitute vehicle that could transport a full party and find that only airships & boats have enough passengers listed. The fact that the GMG Vehicle rules don't seem to support any common land-based vehicle designed to transport groups of people seems wrong & strange to me.
[*Okay, my actual first thought was how I'd try to use these rules for chariot racing, but this was my second thought.]
It's not really hard to adjust the vehicle to add passengers. Just add seats: "Passengers the number of passengers the vehicle is typically configured to carry, if any." So just let them buy a non-typical one. Upgrade it to a coach and add a few extra seats and bump up the price for the extra seats, say +50%. For size I found a small 4 seat stagecoach that was 8' 6" tall x 6' 8" wide x 22' 8" long with tongue so 20x10x8 sounds like a good modification to accommodate the new seats. Add some extra hp for the increases size and done. So:
CarriageCoach, Vehicle 2
Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 178
Price 150 gp
Space 20 feet long, 10 feet wide, 8 feet tall
Crew 1 pilot; Passengers 4
Piloting Check Driving Lore (DC 16) or Nature (DC 18 to DC 26, depending on pulling creature)
AC 13; Fort +8
Hardness 5, HP 60 (BT 30); Immunities critical hits, object immunities, precision damage
Speed the Speed of the slowest pulling creature (pulled by 2 Large creatures)
Collision 2d8 (DC 16)
Easy peasy.
Sure, anything can be homebrewed (though I'd argue against needing a second price increase there), but I made this thread more out of a frustration with the actual rules presented (which is especially important for anyone in a setting like PFS where they can't easily homebrew), and trying to see if anyone else felt the same.
To put this another way, most vehicles typically exist to transport people, goods, or both. However the rules presented in this subsection seem somewhat inadequate for both purposes (especially as I look at the Bulk rules more).
I already mentioned the comparison of wagon & carriage (both hold exact same passengers/bulk, making me wonder why we're wasting limited wordcount separating them here), but also consider the entries for a Sailing Ship and a Galley. A galley costs 1,000gp more than a sailing ship, but due to the limited guidance on capacity, "a ship can hold upwards of 1,000 Bulk," they can essentially be assumed to either hold the same bulk or have massive table variation to the point the rule is useless. As for passenger count, the larger and more expensive galley actually holds less passengers than the sailing ship (though they have more crew, which actually seems like a detriment). Other than than, a galley has slightly better combat stats and can turn more easily.
Not only does this make me wonder "what's the point?" But it makes me wonder where is there a ship designed to carry a good number of passengers? 10 passengers on a sailing ship is better than most everything else in the GMG, but that still seems lacking.
As someone who currently GMs more than plays, it feels wrong to get a new subsystem and then be told that it'd require homebrew just to function correctly with something in the CRB, along with more homebrew to get anything people in a setting would want to use for decent transportation. And then the moment I go to someone else's game that homebrew wouldn't exist anymore. Am I really crazy to feel this way?
(though I'd argue against needing a second price increase there)
I'd be curious why more seats wouldn't cost more.
To put this another way, most vehicles typically exist to transport people, goods, or both. However the rules presented in this subsection seem somewhat inadequate for both purposes (especially as I look at the Bulk rules more).
We're talking bare-bones rules with only 12 vehicles to cover land sea and air. Are you really surprised it doesn't cover everything you want?
consider the entries for a Sailing Ship and a Galley.
Yeah, bare-bones. Again, did you expect a 12 vehicle selection to cover every possible variance of real life vehicles? It gives a framework for an an optional system and not big book of vehicles.
Not only does this make me wonder "what's the point?" But it makes me wonder where is there a ship designed to carry a good number of passengers?
What is the point? It's telling you how to pilot and combat with it, not going into that kind of stuff: if you need more passengers, ADD them... It's not going to add to the combat stats for a ship, it's just going to take up cargo space.
As someone who currently GMs more than plays, it feels wrong to get a new subsystem and then be told that it'd require homebrew just to function correctly with something in the CRB, along with more homebrew to get anything people in a setting would want to use for decent transportation. And then the moment I go to someone else's game that homebrew wouldn't exist anymore. Am I really crazy to feel this way?
As an OPTIONAL subsystem, it's even existing in a game you go to is in question so I'm not sure I see the issue: the combat is the main point. Does the number of passengers and cargo change how you fight and pilot them? No to me. You're literally quibbling over the number of seats in the vehicles in a game you run...
So I'm going to say the answer to "Am I really crazy to feel this way?" is yeah, you are. You're expecting an awful lot out of a 2 pages of vehicles and 4 pages of rules. If this had been an old Pathfinder Player Companion sourcebook and we where looking at 32 pages of rules and vehicles then I'd agree with you but that not what we got.
(though I'd argue against needing a second price increase there)I'd be curious why more seats wouldn't cost more.
Because the carriage is already a price increase for what is largely a re-skinned wagon. A price increase that was previously justified in this thread as being primarily for prestige, which a passenger coach wouldn't have. So increasing the price a second time for something that is supposed to have less prestige and be meant for commoners seems unnecessary compared to starting with the wagon as a base and adjusting the price/stats from there to create a coach. [Which is getting towards part of my issue with "just homebrew it" being the solution, because we're already starting with different interpretations of how that would best be done.]
We're talking bare-bones rules with only 12 vehicles to cover land sea and air. Are you really surprised it doesn't cover everything you want?
...
Yeah, bare-bones. Again, did you expect a 12 vehicle selection to cover every possible variance of real life vehicles? It gives a framework for an an optional system and not big book of vehicles.
Am I surprised that there isn't a complete collection of navel vehicles throughout history? Not at all. Am I surprised it seems inadequate to cover one of the most basic reasons vehicles exist in the first place? Kinda, yeah. With only 12 vehicles listed, I'd at least expect to see land and sea versions of vehicles designed primarily to transport goods & vehicles designed primarily to transport people (4 total). Maybe add the vehicles from the transportation basic services of the CRB so a GM could have stats for what happens if the PCs are using those to travel and something happens (Carriage & Sailing Ship are there, Ferry and Riverboat are not and would be nice to have).
And stressing that there are only 12 entries only makes it more glaring when some of those entries are reskins of each other or odd rare vehicles (Steam Giant) instead of covering other basic categories of vehicles likely to see use in play.
Not only does this make me wonder "what's the point?" But it makes me wonder where is there a ship designed to carry a good number of passengers?What is the point? It's telling you how to pilot and combat with it, not going into that kind of stuff:
Except that's exactly why I'd want statblocks for a more passenger oriented vehicle - because those are the vehicles I'd expect PCs to be using during travel and might need statblocks for when combat happens to break out while the PCs are on one. Maybe the PCs need to take over driving, maybe they need to try not sinking under enemy fire, maybe they need to use a vehicle as cover, or maybe they're just trying to figure out how many of a vehicle they need to transport an entire dragon's hoard of treasure. Whatever the situation, having a statblock that can be looked up is extremely useful and helps set consistent expectations at the table.
Also worth noting that this is the reason I don't have issue with things like rowboats or carts having statblocks here. I don't expect PCs to deliberately choose them as their primary combat vehicle, but I expect those vehicles to be common enough within most settings that being able to pull up a statblock could be really useful for a variety of situations. Similarly, I find the sleigh to be a great addition since it helps any campaign in an environment with heavy ice/snow - despite it being personally unlikely I'll ever see one used during play. [Though I will note that having almost no guidance on bulk capacity for a rowboat might become an issue if PCs ever need to transport a treasure hoard using a few.]
if you need more passengers, ADD them... It's not going to add to the combat stats for a ship, it's just going to take up cargo space.
Great, so what's fair to translate cargo space into additional passenger space? Some guidance on this being in the actual rules would have done wonders to ease my complaints here, but without that I can only expect massive table variation.
Which is another part of my issue. While I primarily GM at the moment, I kinda of got into the game to play and like to do so on occasion. So any ability to just change things leaves my hands as soon as I step out of the GM seat and go to another table. At which point, I have to wonder how the subsystem would be run at someone else's table & if I'd even want to attempt engaging with it as a result (such as the unresolved question if PCs need to purchase one or two carriage services to transport a 4 person party).
So I'm going to say the answer to "Am I really crazy to feel this way?" is yeah, you are.
At this point, I don't think I can argue against this.
Because the carriage is already a price increase for what is largely a re-skinned wagon.
Wagons are generally purely cargo vehicles, with pilot and passengers sitting in the same place. Carriages/coaches are passenger vehicles: as such, they have the extra cost of creating a passenger compartment. It's the difference flat-bed truck and a bus: seats and an enclosure cost money.
Am I surprised it seems inadequate to cover one of the most basic reasons vehicles exist in the first place? Kinda, yeah. With only 12 vehicles listed, I'd at least expect to see land and sea versions of vehicles designed primarily to transport goods & vehicles designed primarily to transport people (4 total).
You can't please everyone. You make a 4 seat carriage and the person with a 5 PC party wonders the same or the party with a snake animal companion that needs 5 seats. And what if the DM wants to have passengers to interact with before and during an attack? 4 seats isn't enough for that...
Great, so what's fair to translate cargo space into additional passenger space? Some guidance on this being in the actual rules would have done wonders to ease my complaints here, but without that I can only expect massive table variation.
This is one thing I'll agree with you on: it would have been nice if they snuck in an extra seat rule but I don't think it's much of an issue as it's NOT a player issue but a DM one. Players aren't building vehicles from the ground up: even if they build one they need a formula for it. So it's up to the DM to do it. I'm not sure how this would impact you as a player: if a Dm wants you to ride in 1 or 2 carriages when you travel would be out of your hands no matter what as the DM decides what is available...
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I agree that it's not much of an issue. The vehicle section itself states that the amount of passengers listed is the typical amount, meaning it's not concrete and is open for variation; not necessitating separate statblocks.
I'd hardly even call it homebrew, at that point, since it's blatantly stated and would otherwise have no meaning. If a GM insists on enforcing the supposed hard limit of the passenger count and forces a party member to be left on their own, then that's bad GM'ing. The game wants you to have fun, not to put everything on hold every time you find something that's not written up exactly how you want it.
Wagons are generally purely cargo vehicles, with pilot and passengers sitting in the same place. Carriages/coaches are passenger vehicles: as such, they have the extra cost of creating a passenger compartment. It's the difference flat-bed truck and a bus: seats and an enclosure cost money.
Carriage/Coach will also lack additional space for cargo (though part of my issue with current rules - they will have the same capacity regardless). So while I expect a coach to be priced higher than a wagon, I'm iffy about the 4x price for the carriage and question the total 6x price for your homebrew coach. Especially for something that will have almost identical stats in every other respect.
Am I surprised it seems inadequate to cover one of the most basic reasons vehicles exist in the first place? Kinda, yeah. With only 12 vehicles listed, I'd at least expect to see land and sea versions of vehicles designed primarily to transport goods & vehicles designed primarily to transport people (4 total).You can't please everyone. You make a 4 seat carriage and the person with a 5 PC party wonders the same or the party with a snake animal companion that needs 5 seats. And what if the DM wants to have passengers to interact with before and during an attack? 4 seats isn't enough for that...
Apologies if that was worded in a way to cause misunderstanding, but by "4 total" I was referring to the number of different types of vehicles I was expecting as a minimum in the GMG compared to the total number of vehicles that ended up getting printed (12). As in 4 vehicles to cover land-cargo, land-passenger, sea-cargo, & sea-passenger.
Personally, if I wanted to make a general design for a passenger carriage/coach, much of what I typically see used in the fiction/fantasy I consume seem to be a pair of 3-4 person benches facing each other for a total passenger count of 6-8. Obviously large-sized companion creatures don't work well, but it's normal for them to have issues (barkeep didn't exactly appreciate the horse & the bear being brought into the building).
This is one thing I'll agree with you on: it would have been nice if they snuck in an extra seat rule but I don't think it's much of an issue as it's NOT a player issue but a DM one. Players aren't building vehicles from the ground up: even if they build one they need a formula for it. So it's up to the DM to do it. I'm not sure how this would impact you as a player: if a Dm wants you to ride in 1 or 2 carriages when you travel would be out of your hands no matter what as the DM decides what is available...
I'd say it is a player issue if different interpretations potentially double the price of a basic service. I know some very stingy PCs when it comes to things like that and I generally want the rules to help solve issues at the table rather than start them.
I would not give the galley a ship's cargo capacity. Galleys are long, low vessels, the majority of their capacity being filled with rowers. The sailing ship will have a deeper hull with an actual cargo hold.
Again the problem I have with the bulk suggestions. Currently a sailing ship, galley, and rowboat all have the same suggestion for bulk capacity, "can hold upwards of 1,000 Bulk." And if you try to adjust based on the vehicle's space entry, then the galley would end up with more cargo capacity than the sailing ship.
Neither a galley or a 75 footer with 8 crew is a ship either, but I'll let this slide. This game wasn't written for sailors :-)
Now I'm curious to know what you'd use for the definition of a ship in this circumstance.
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Carriage/Coach will also lack additional space for cargo
Space usually isn't an issue unless you're talking about extremely large items as the top and back of the Carriage/Coach are for cargo. In essence, the weight carried doesn't change a whole lot, what alters it the dimensions of what's carried: IE, you can no longer carry a pile of 10' logs for instance.
I'm iffy about the 4x price for the carriage and question the total 6x price for your homebrew coach. Especially for something that will have almost identical stats in every other respect.
It's a more complex design all around as a cargo as a purely cargo based vehicle doesn't have any creature comforts: no padded seats, no suspensions, no enclosures, no windows, ect. It's like saying you don't see why a cargo train car and a sleeper train car have different costs even though the stats would be similar:
Personally, if I wanted to make a general design for a passenger carriage/coach, much of what I typically see used in the fiction/fantasy I consume seem to be a pair of 3-4 person benches facing each other for a total passenger count of 6-8.
A Concord stagecoach is most likely what you're thinking of and it's 9 passengers [3 front seet, 3 back seat and 3 in middle bench] inside and another 12 on top. "The Concord Coaches had a reputation for being sturdy, roomy, and comfortable. At the front and back of the stagecoach were leather 'boots' where baggage, mail and valuables were stored during the journey, with the remainder of the luggage being placed on top of the coach. Sometimes, even passengers sat atop the coach, but most chose to endure the rugged trip inside, if it wasn't too crowded. If it was, a single stagecoach would hold nine passengers inside, and a dozen or more on the roof. The windows of a stagecoach had leather roll-down curtains, and three leather-covered seats that offered little legroom. Most travelers had about fifteen inches to squeeze themselves into if the coach carried a capacity of nine passengers. The one stuck in the middle usually had the worst of it, because there was no back support. Instead, they had to hold onto leather straps that hung from the ceiling. The average speed was only eight miles an hour."
The thing is though, the carriage/coach can have passengers from 1 to dozens [2 tiered monstrosity pulled by 4 elephants] so a 'typical' one is hard to pin down. If we were playing a wild west game, sure you'd expect a stagecoach but when you're covering so many ethnicities and areas but when it covers oriental, European, African, ect cultures it seems like it's much less of an assumption.