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I'm not sure my thinking on this is going to work and was wanting some feed back on it. I'm going by RAW so no homebrew stuff or anything 3rd party.
Situation:
A Wild Shape Druid takes the feats to get Monk Archetype with the Mountain Stance. Can he use it in conjunction with Wild Shape? If so, what does he gain and not gain?
From what I can gleam, he would have to use the falling stone unarmed attacks at a 1d8 and would gain the status bonus of +4 to AC along with the circumstance bonus to defenses against Shove or Trip. He would not lose any AC from having a +0 dex as the AC value from the shifted forms does not list dex as a value to be calculated. I can't tell if he would be able to use the Handwraps to augment the falling stone unarmed attack since he would be shifted but the Handwraps would be augmenting the stance attack and not the animal form attack. As a persistent ability maybe?
Something about my thinking on this seems off and I can't quite put my finger on it to see where I'm going wrong on it.
I'm thinking now that it's an incompatibility with the lines of attack. But does the polymorphed state over ride the stance state?
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I'm not sure my thinking on this is going to work and was wanting some feed back on it. I'm going by RAW so no homebrew stuff or anything 3rd party.
Situation:
A Wild Shape Druid takes the feats to get Monk Archetype with the Mountain Stance. Can he use it in conjunction with Wild Shape? If so, what does he gain and not gain?From what I can gleam, he would have to use the falling stone unarmed attacks at a 1d8 and would gain the status bonus of +4 to AC along with the circumstance bonus to defenses against Shove or Trip. He would not lose any AC from having a +0 dex as the AC value from the shifted forms does not list dex as a value to be calculated. I can't tell if he would be able to use the Handwraps to augment the falling stone unarmed attack since he would be shifted but the Handwraps would be augmenting the stance attack and not the animal form attack. As a persistent ability maybe?
Something about my thinking on this seems off and I can't quite put my finger on it to see where I'm going wrong on it.
I'm thinking now that it's an incompatibility with the lines of attack. But does the polymorphed state over ride the stance state?
I don't think you would be able to attack at all. Mount Stance isn't a Polymorph, so it wouldn't Counteract Wild Shape, but your Wild Shape forms state (Animal Form Example):
"One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use."
Mount Stance also states:
"The only Strikes you can make are falling stone unarmed attacks."
Since you can't fulfill both of these conditions at once, you simply can't attack at all.
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I saw somebody call this the "Wall" build many moons ago.
It gives you a great AC, but cuts off your access to any Strikes.
I guess if you had access to other ways to contribute in battle, it could be kinda...fun? Exotic? *shrug*
It does work better at high levels, with Dragon Form and Sea Serpent that have other ways to cause damage without attacks.
Could focus on Intimidate and Athletics to control enemies. Seems kind of interesting in it's own odd way. Since you have no way of attacking. You would be able to still damage enemies, if you can get a critical on a trip.
Except you can't. Trip is an attack. Battle form prevents you from using any attacks other than the ones granted.
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Could focus on Intimidate and Athletics to control enemies. Seems kind of interesting in it's own odd way. Since you have no way of attacking. You would be able to still damage enemies, if you can get a critical on a trip.Except you can't. Trip is an attack. Battle form prevents you from using any attacks other than the ones granted.
I don't think that is correct.
A trip is a use of the athletics skill. Animal forms have an athletics skill so they can still trip.
I believe that clause is intended to stop the ape from grabbing up a sword.
Could focus on Intimidate and Athletics to control enemies. Seems kind of interesting in it's own odd way. Since you have no way of attacking. You would be able to still damage enemies, if you can get a critical on a trip.Except you can't. Trip is an attack. Battle form prevents you from using any attacks other than the ones granted.I don't think that is correct.
A trip is a use of the athletics skill. Animal forms have an athletics skill so they can still trip.
I believe that clause is intended to stop the ape from grabbing up a sword.
It says Attacks, not Strikes. A Monk in Mountain Stance can Trip, as Trips are not Strikes. A Wild Shaped Druid cannot, as the only Attacks they can use are those listed. Trip has the Attack Trait, and is therefore an Attack.
If Trip wasn't an Attack, it wouldn't suffer MAP.
The Athletics modifier is for Climbing, Swimming, Forcing Open, etc...
A Wild Shaped Druid cannot, as the only Attacks they can use are those listed. Trip has the Attack Trait, and is therefore an Attack.
I strongly doubt that Paizo intended wildshaped druids to not be able to grapple, trip or bull rush their opponents.
Seems pretty intentional to me. None of the Attacks in any of the forms have the Trip, Shove, or Grapple Traits that I can find, and even for things like Purple Worm Form, they did not include the Improved Grab ability that a real Purple Worm has, and in Sea Serpent Form, Spine Rake is missing the Attack Trait, so that you can use it, even though in the Bestiary it has the Attack Trait.
They also specifically did not word it like the Monk Stances which are worded to allow you to use Trip, Shove, and Grapple.
Seems pretty intentional to me. None of the Attacks in any of the forms have the Trip, Shove, or Grapple Traits that I can find, and even for things like Purple Worm Form, they did not include the Improved Grab ability that a real Purple Worm has, and in Sea Serpent Form, Spine Rake is missing the Attack Trait, so that you can use it, even though in the Bestiary it has the Attack Trait.
They also specifically did not word it like the Monk Stances which are worded to allow you to use Trip, Shove, and Grapple.
Also, Barbarians with animal instinct have unarmed attacks that specifically include the grapple and trip traits.
And even without this interpretation, those Athletics-based attacks all require a free hand, which most animal forms explicitly won't have. That's one of the requirements that the grapple/trip/shove weapon traits grant an exception for.
I think a wild shape/animal form caster is limited to using athletics for things like leaping, climbing, and swimming. Well, probably not climbing barring a GM ruling, since it also requires free hands.
Idk, I could see it being intentional as a way to limit polymorphism good casters from being as effective as martials.
A skill feat that applies it to polymorph spells would solve that.
Well, probably not climbing barring a GM ruling, since it also requires free hands.Uh, I really think you're taking things FAR too literally. While I guess you can argue that the snake has no free hands it's pretty silly to argue that can ape doesn't. Or that a cat can't climb.
It's come up in my games via animal companions, and I've consistently let them try because it's generally made sense (bears are good climbers IRL, I'm just saying that the rules for players seem to preclude the option by the literal rules. In the absence of designer errata/clarification, my interpretation is that you can't as written, but I'll override that in my home games as I see fit.
It's come up in my games via animal companions, and I've consistently let them try because it's generally made sense (bears are good climbers IRL, I'm just saying that the rules for players seem to preclude the option by the literal rules. In the absence of designer errata/clarification, my interpretation is that you can't as written, but I'll override that in my home games as I see fit.Well, probably not climbing barring a GM ruling, since it also requires free hands.Uh, I really think you're taking things FAR too literally. While I guess you can argue that the snake has no free hands it's pretty silly to argue that can ape doesn't. Or that a cat can't climb.
I feel like animal companions it’s a little easier to see though because they specifically get athletics as a skill, which sort of implies they should be able to perform the relevant checks.
I don’t see anything that says a wolf can’t perform a trip since they are trained in athletics, unless you want to say they don’t have a free hand, in which case I feel that’s a different kind of rule being read (depending on how you want to determine “hand”) more than it is a distinction on the usage of attacks.
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Could focus on Intimidate and Athletics to control enemies. Seems kind of interesting in it's own odd way. Since you have no way of attacking. You would be able to still damage enemies, if you can get a critical on a trip.Except you can't. Trip is an attack. Battle form prevents you from using any attacks other than the ones granted.I don't think that is correct.
A trip is a use of the athletics skill. Animal forms have an athletics skill so they can still trip.
I believe that clause is intended to stop the ape from grabbing up a sword.
It says Attacks, not Strikes. A Monk in Mountain Stance can Trip, as Trips are not Strikes. A Wild Shaped Druid cannot, as the only Attacks they can use are those listed. Trip has the Attack Trait, and is therefore an Attack.
If Trip wasn't an Attack, it wouldn't suffer MAP.
The Athletics modifier is for Climbing, Swimming, Forcing Open, etc...
Aratorin, I think that you may be correct in the rules. However I'd never play it that way. It is a gross restriction to not allow an animal form to grab, trip, escape and shove. Yes that is right in animal form you aren't allowed to roll an escape check. Try that on your next player and see how it goes for you.
I'm always going to Rule 0 that technicality.
FYI Plant Form has a grab attack specifically mentioned. There are a few other forms as well.
Could focus on Intimidate and Athletics to control enemies. Seems kind of interesting in it's own odd way. Since you have no way of attacking. You would be able to still damage enemies, if you can get a critical on a trip.Except you can't. Trip is an attack. Battle form prevents you from using any attacks other than the ones granted.I don't think that is correct.
A trip is a use of the athletics skill. Animal forms have an athletics skill so they can still trip.
I believe that clause is intended to stop the ape from grabbing up a sword.
It says Attacks, not Strikes. A Monk in Mountain Stance can Trip, as Trips are not Strikes. A Wild Shaped Druid cannot, as the only Attacks they can use are those listed. Trip has the Attack Trait, and is therefore an Attack.
If Trip wasn't an Attack, it wouldn't suffer MAP.
The Athletics modifier is for Climbing, Swimming, Forcing Open, etc...
Aratorin, I think that you may be correct in the rules. However I'd never play it that way. It is a gross restriction to not allow an animal form to grab, trip, escape and shove. Yes that is right in animal form you aren't allowed to roll an escape check. Try that on your next player and see how it goes for you.
I'm always going to Rule 0 that technicality.
FYI Plant Form has a grab attack specifically mentioned. There are a few other forms as well.
Thanks, I missed that.
However, Grab isn't an attack, it's an ability that automatically allows you to inflict the Grabbed condition without needing to roll. Grapple is the action that has the Attack Trait.
If people are going to argue that Trip, Shove, and Grapple aren't Attacks, then they don't suffer MAP, and we can finally put the whole Finesse argument to rest, as if they aren't Attacks, there there is no interpretation where a Finesse Trip weapon can possibly allow you to use your DEX modifier to Trip.
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If people are going to argue that Trip, Shove, and Grapple aren't Attacks, then they don't suffer MAP, and we can finally put the whole Finesse argument to rest, as if they aren't Attacks, there there is no interpretation where a Finesse Trip...
No not going to do that. Quite happy with the MAP situation and Athletics checks.
I'm just going to allow all uses of athletics checks for the all the form spells. To my mind it is offensive that an Animal Form Ape can't grapple, or shove or escape OR that a Dragon can't grab with his bite. It interferes with the story.
Hopefully it will get fixed.
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I think the obvious reason it’s intended to allow athletics is because if someone in a form gets grappled from a foe they are permanently grappled because no action they take can remove the condition as they are all attacks.
So it’s pretty easy to determine that “attacks” in the animal forms spells should read “strikes”.
I think the obvious reason it’s intended to allow athletics is because if someone in a form gets grappled from a foe they are permanently grappled because no action they take can remove the condition as they are all attacks.
So it’s pretty easy to determine that “attacks” in the animal forms spells should read “strikes”.
Grapple ends automatically if they don't make another successful grapple attack the next turn.
If the enemy can routinely succeed at grapple checks against you, you probably shouldn't be fighting it in melee in the first place.
I think the obvious reason it’s intended to allow athletics is because if someone in a form gets grappled from a foe they are permanently grappled because no action they take can remove the condition as they are all attacks.
So it’s pretty easy to determine that “attacks” in the animal forms spells should read “strikes”.
Grapple ends automatically if they don't make another successful grapple attack the next turn.
If the enemy can routinely succeed at grapple checks against you, you probably shouldn't be fighting it in melee in the first place.
So you think it's intended that you cannot use Escape, Grapple, or any action with the Attack trait to get out of applied conditions like Grabbed?
Even if that were RAI, which I doubt, that requires a lot of mental gymnastics just to imagine (Cat/Rat/Snake can't Escape?).
I can't say I agree with that position, but you're welcome to it. This would be extremely disruptive if every time someone was polymorphed they couldn't escape a grapple.
Heck, that's a pretty huge debuff if you ask me.
I think the obvious reason it’s intended to allow athletics is because if someone in a form gets grappled from a foe they are permanently grappled because no action they take can remove the condition as they are all attacks.
So it’s pretty easy to determine that “attacks” in the animal forms spells should read “strikes”.
Grapple ends automatically if they don't make another successful grapple attack the next turn.
If the enemy can routinely succeed at grapple checks against you, you probably shouldn't be fighting it in melee in the first place.
So you think it's intended that you cannot use Escape, Grapple, or any action with the Attack trait to get out of applied conditions like Grabbed?
Even if that were RAI, which I doubt, that requires a lot of mental gymnastics just to imagine (Cat/Rat/Snake can't Escape?).
I can't say I agree with that position, but you're welcome to it. This would be extremely disruptive if every time someone was polymorphed they couldn't escape a grapple.
Heck, that's a pretty huge debuff if you ask me.
IMO, that's a problem with Escape, not Wild Shape. There is no reason for Escape to have the Attack Trait.
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IMO, that's a problem with Escape, not Wild Shape. There is no reason for Escape to have the Attack Trait.
If you get rid of the attack trait on Escape you get rid of the mulitple attack penalty which means escape and attack is effective, or even escape 3 times a round with no extra penalty. It devalues grappling as a tactic.
Why can't animals Grab and Shove? It is so common and natural. The battle forms need to have this enabled. Just fixing Escape is not enough.
For what its worth:
Remember that the animal is just a form and still has the intellect and training of the PC - it is the PC. The PC knows how to move and use the body they are now in, they are not a glove puppet and can swim, climb, jump, burrow & fly etc to the physical limits of the form.
Three examples Below:
Crane Stance
- holding your arms in an imitation of a crane’s wings - You would have to have limbs that could do this.
- but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks - As these are the ONLY strikes you can do - you CAN NOT do them in the ANIMAL form.
Mountain Stance
- The only Strikes you can make are falling stone unarmed attacks.- As they are the ONLY strikes you can make then you can not make them in the form.
- While in Mountain Stance, you gain a +4 status bonus to AC and a +2 circumstance bonus to any defences against being Shoved or Tripped - There is nothing in here about your limbs so you could take the stance but if you tried to attack you would break the stance.
Ironblood Stance
- You enter the stance of impenetrable iron, refusing to yield to any blow. - "refusing to yield" I would call this almost a state of mind, remember your PC is in the Form but still the PC.
- You can make iron sweep unarmed attacks - Unlike the other stances the wording is - "you Can" so allows the PC the option of striking in some other way.
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I called this build the "Kangaroo Druid" because there's a 3rd piece to this combo that makes it function - Jumping.
By Jumping you are no longer touching the ground, hence you no longer meet the requirements of Mountain Stance and exit it. By investing into Athletics for Quick Jump and/or Powerful Leap, you can have every turn be something like
Action 1: Quick Jump, Leap or Fly to stop touching the ground, exiting Mountain Stance. This is also your movement option.
Action 2: Strike or Flurry of Blows
Action 3: Mountain Stance
Which gives you some pretty ridiculous AC - on par with, or better than, a heavy armour champion with shield raised until level 17, at which point you're just on par with a heavy armour champion.