Hello and thank you for your time,
by my understanding (strictly RAW) the rules on familiars state the following:
- has to be a size "tiny" and of the creature family "animal"
- familiar abilities have to be spent on abilities normally inherent to the creature, but it is possible to take a creature as familiar without an official statblock that would define those abilities
- the rules regarding familiar statistics only cover: saves, AC, modifiers for Stealth, Acrobatic and Perception, hit points, size, senses and movements
This leaves me with the following questions and please if you answer with a interesting table variation or houserule clearly state so.
Are the rules regareding statistics of familiar exclusive or is the actual statblock relevant? Is there a rule somewhere that stats that tiny animals loose their listed abilities because they become familiars? (Vipers and Bloodseekers for example)
Currently under General Discussions there is thread discussing how groups houserule "Dimension Door" and if it allows to transport ones familiar with the caster. What is the RAW interpretation?
Have I missed the statblock for house cats? And do they have Low-Light Vision or Darkvision?
Do I need to interact with my familiar to grant it Familiar abilities or myself Master abilities?
Since the Wizards "Drain Bonded Item" doesn't state that the wizard needs to interact with the item, does the wizard need to interact with the familiar for the "Drain Familiar action"?
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Since there are no statblocks for Familiars, I think it makes the most sense to treat them as malleable balls of protoplasm that can be reshaped every morning.
If you want your toad to fly, you give it Flier. If you want your monkey to follow you underwater, you give it Amphibious. If you want your turtle to help you scribe, you give it Manual Dexterity. Etc.
The text regarding owl Familiars being required to take Flier is likely a holdover from the Playtest, when owls had a statblock. If you interpret that line as meaning that every bird must have Flier, then you run into the silly notion of Kiwis or Penguins always having Flier.
A better way to interpret the text would be that your Familiar doesn't get "free" abilities just because of how you flavor it. If you want your "Owl" to be able to fly, give it Flier, but if it's a flightless "Storval Owl", you could give it Burrower instead.
Rules on Familiars That page and some of the links should answer your questions on Familiars. However, in short=
-The actual stat blue block is not relevant in most cases (the exception being if they have an ability that can be granted through ‘Familiar Abilities’ list, which they are forced to take.) A Familiar will not have any additional/free abilities of a creature it is based on (a snake Familiar will not be venomous for example.)
-By RAW, Dimension Door just transports you, your little buddy is left behind.
-Don’t think there is a ‘House Cat’ stat block. But all Familiars get Low-Light by default, with an optional ‘Familiar Abilities’ for Darkvision.
-Other questions, not enough exp with Familiars to field. Seems to be slightly grey area on the ‘interact’ questions. (No real rules on how you interact from what I found.) For the Improved Familiar Attunment thesis from the Wizard class, it’s whatever the rule is for a Bonded item are rules for your Drain Familiar. If no answer is found, ask your DM how they would run it.
Personally I would say the Familiar needs to be there when you select the abilities for the day, and you need to have the Bonded Item/Familiar to on you to Drain it, but that’s just me.
Nefreet wrote: Since there are no statblocks for Familiars, I think it makes the most sense to treat them as malleable balls of protoplasm that can be reshaped every morning.
If you want your toad to fly, you give it Flier. If you want your monkey to follow you underwater, you give it Amphibious. If you want your turtle to help you scribe, you give it Manual Dexterity. Etc.
The text regarding owl Familiars being required to take Flier is likely a holdover from the Playtest, when owls had a statblock. If you interpret that line as meaning that every bird must have Flier, then you run into the silly notion of Kiwis or Penguins always having Flier.
A better way to interpret the text would be that your Familiar doesn't get "free" abilities just because of how you flavor it. If you want your "Owl" to be able to fly, give it Flier, but if it's a flightless "Storval Owl", you could give it Burrower instead.
Thank you for the information regarding owls, but yes its mostly interpretation at this point I assume.
Siro wrote: Rules on Familiars That page and some of the links should answer your questions on Familiars. I have read those rules beforehand and thats exactly the reason why I have those questions I have.
Siro wrote: -The actual stat blue block is not relevant in most cases (the exception being if they have an ability that can be granted through ‘Familiar Abilities’ list, which they are forced to take.) A Familiar will not have any additional/free abilities of a creature it is based on (a snake Familiar will not be venomous for example.) Thats the point where I'm unsure, its maybe implied but where is it written? I'd assume there is somewhere a general rule regarding this?
Siro wrote: -By RAW, Dimension Door just transports you, your little buddy is left behind. Sadly what I assume so as well.
Siro wrote: -Don’t think there is a ‘House Cat’ stat block. But all Familiars get Low-Light by default, with an optional ‘Familiar Abilities’ for Darkvision. So there is no statblock that requires cats to have darkvision, thank you.
How many 'normal' animals really have darkvision?
Most (if not all) of those who spend a lot of time in really dark places tend to not use sight much, relying on other senses instead.
Low-light vision is quite common, but I don't think your familiar will ever be 'forced' to get darkvision, whatever its form.
If you look at the Familiar section, it actually tells you the stat block for the Familiar.
Modifiers and AC CRB 217 wrote: Your familiar’s save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties. Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses. Hit Points CRB 217 wrote: Your familiar has 5 Hit Points for each of your levels. Size CRB 218 wrote: Your familiar is Tiny Senses CRB 218 wrote: Your familiar has low-light vision and can gain additional senses from familiar abilities. It can communicate empathically with you as long as it’s within 1 mile of you, sharing emotions. It doesn’t understand or speak languages normally, but it can gain speech from a familiar ability. Movement CRB 218 wrote: Your familiar has either a Speed of 25 feet or a swim Speed of 25 feet (choose one upon gaining the familiar). It can gain other movement types from familiar abilities. This tells you all you need to know.
STATS- it has none
AC and Saves- Same as yours
Perception Acrobatics and Stealth- Your level + Int/Wis/Cha
Attack Rolls- your level
Any other Skill- Your level
HP- 5x your level
Size- Tiny
Speed- 25 ft.
Senses- Low Light
Anything else you have to buy using Familiar abilities.
In P1 a Toad familiar was useless, because it was slow. A Bird familiar was great because it could fly and scout for you. The rules for P2 were designed to avoid this by saying, anyone can have the great flying familiar, but you have to pay for it.
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Nefreet wrote: If you interpret that line as meaning that every bird must have Flier, then you run into the silly notion of Kiwis or Penguins always having Flier. No you don't?
The text says "if your familiar is an animal that naturally has one of these abilities, you must select that ability."
Penguins don't naturally fly, so they wouldn't be required to take it. I'm not even sure how you're reaching the conclusion that you are.
Megistone wrote: How many 'normal' animals really have darkvision?
Most (if not all) of those who spend a lot of time in really dark places tend to not use sight much, relying on other senses instead.
Low-light vision is quite common, but I don't think your familiar will ever be 'forced' to get darkvision, whatever its form.
That's a good point defaulting to low-light vision seems sensible.
Kelseus wrote: If you look at the Familiar section, it actually tells you the stat block for the Familiar. Kelseus wrote: This tells you all you need to know. Sadly it does not. As stated before, I already checked out the rules but I seem to miss like a big part of it and thats why I have questions. I'm aware that there are several discussions regarding statistics that aren't provide by the rules and while this is an issue in itself, my questions asks for those statistics that are provided.
Snakes are listed as examples for familiars, Vipers have a statblock in the bestiary so what happens with the poison of viper familiar? Everyone makes the assumption its gone and yes some rules require interpretation by definition, but this seems like a rather big missing thing. Four of the released classes can have a familiar, a race gets an familiar, its one of the main features of an upcoming class.
So regarding statistics I was wondering where it is worded that abilities become lost? The rules clearly state what a Viper can do, the rules state what a Familiar can do, but doesn't cover the gap inbetween.
Does the old crone (wizard with thesis on familiars) leave hear dear old cat at home several continents away because no rule states that she has to interact with her familiar or does she swing her cat by the tail like a morningstar whenever she uses her "Drain Familiar" action? By RAW the cat musn't even be on the same plane.
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Quote: Vipers have a statblock in the bestiary so what happens with the poison of viper familiar? Nothing? Viper familiars never have poison. Poison isn't a thing familiars can pick up.
The rules tell you what a familiars get. They don't need to tell you what a familiar doesn't get, because that's already covered by definition by not being listed as a thing they get.
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Wermut wrote: Kelseus wrote: This tells you all you need to know. Snakes are listed as examples for familiars, Vipers have a statblock in the bestiary so what happens with the poison of viper familiar?
The Familiar only gets what the rules explicitly say they get. That's it. If it's not on the list they don't get it.
Wermut wrote: Does the old crone (wizard with thesis on familiars) leave hear dear old cat at home several continents away because no rule states that she has to interact with her familiar or does she swing her cat by the tail like a morningstar whenever she uses her "Drain Familiar" action? By RAW the cat musn't even be on the same plane. This is up to the GM. I would say it has to be present in the room, but otherwise that's it.
Okay I could live with that. I wouldn't like it that way, but yes I see the intention of pushing down on those PF1 wand-wielding faery dragons, that seems to call for an nerf.
Its probably partly the sad outcome that that would also mean that familiars have no "personality" or agenda, they have no ability modifiers they are completely devoid of intelligence, wisdom and charisma or alignment on that matter. All the familiar abilities that grant more advanced abilities relying on those statistics would require remote control through the master. Kinspeech and Speech lead to the ability for the master to remotely speak, what would an creature without understanding, memory or intent have to say otherwise? Without constitution can a familiar even hunger?
Kelseus wrote: Wermut wrote: Kelseus wrote: This tells you all you need to know. Snakes are listed as examples for familiars, Vipers have a statblock in the bestiary so what happens with the poison of viper familiar?
The Familiar only gets what the rules explicitly say they get. That's it. If it's not on the list they don't get it. I'd assumed so, damn having an evil wizard with a bloodseeker as familiar would have been a nice touch for a villain.
Kelseus wrote: Wermut wrote: Does the old crone (wizard with thesis on familiars) leave hear dear old cat at home several continents away because no rule states that she has to interact with her familiar or does she swing her cat by the tail like a morningstar whenever she uses her "Drain Familiar" action? By RAW the cat musn't even be on the same plane. This is up to the GM. I would say it has to be present in the room, but otherwise that's it. I don't know how I'd rule on that one, line of sight is difficult especially in battle, touch is also difficult because it would severly limit the use and "safety" of a familiar which is a relatable concern for a player.
I do think they need to be near you to drain, based solely on the lich's drain phalactory ability.
Kennethray wrote: I do think they need to be near you to drain, based solely on the lich's drain phalactory ability. Thats a very good point, thanks for mentioning that.
Quote: Its probably partly the sad outcome that that would also mean that familiars have no "personality" or agenda, they have no ability modifiers they are completely devoid of intelligence, wisdom and charisma or alignment on that matter. This is only partially right.
Yeah, they have no scores but familars are per definition rather intelligent beeings (at the very least able to understand speech and with the right abilities able to speak with others and use tools)
since a familiar uses your level as modifier it is basically untrained with +0 from stats, so the mental levels are basically average for whatever they are needed
and about agendas and personality - well, that depends on who roleplays the familar, you or the gm
and alignment, well it most likely matches your own
Seisho wrote: Yeah, they have no scores but familars are per definition rather intelligent beeings (at the very least able to understand speech and with the right abilities able to speak with others and use tools) Speech in no way means intelligence/sapience: My smartphone can understand speech and speak. I can also cast speak with animals but granting those animals the ability to communicate with me doesn't impact their intelligence/sapience. As to tool use, mindless skeletons can do that: Skeletal Giant uses a glaive for instance.
Secondly, Even an intelligent items from the gamemestery guide isn't automatically "fully sapient" even though it has real stats, an alignment trait, and can speak! They even have 3 of their own actions and can do things without command!!! If that isn't "fully sapient", I'm not sure how someone can claim a familiar is...
As far as agendas and personality... That's unsaid: they might have none, being a magic version of a drone.
Squiggit wrote: Nefreet wrote: If you interpret that line as meaning that every bird must have Flier, then you run into the silly notion of Kiwis or Penguins always having Flier. No you don't?
The text says "if your familiar is an animal that naturally has one of these abilities, you must select that ability."
Penguins don't naturally fly, so they wouldn't be required to take it. I'm not even sure how you're reaching the conclusion that you are. I never reached such a conclusion?
I think you need to read the rest of the post that you cut that quote out of.
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Wermut wrote: Kelseus wrote: Wermut wrote: Kelseus wrote: This tells you all you need to know. Snakes are listed as examples for familiars, Vipers have a statblock in the bestiary so what happens with the poison of viper familiar?
The Familiar only gets what the rules explicitly say they get. That's it. If it's not on the list they don't get it. I'd assumed so, damn having an evil wizard with a bloodseeker as familiar would have been a nice touch for a villain PC familiar rules dont stop this in anyway. If your designing a villain you aren't bound by pc rules.
All you have to decide really is if the bloodseeker is a minion to the villain or not.
graystone wrote: Seisho wrote: Yeah, they have no scores but familars are per definition rather intelligent beeings (at the very least able to understand speech and with the right abilities able to speak with others and use tools) Speech in no way means intelligence/sapience: My smartphone can understand speech and speak. I can also cast speak with animals but granting those animals the ability to communicate with me doesn't impact their intelligence/sapience. As to tool use, mindless skeletons can do that: Skeletal Giant uses a glaive for instance.
Secondly, Even an intelligent items from the gamemestery guide isn't automatically "fully sapient" even though it has real stats, an alignment trait, and can speak! They even have 3 of their own actions and can do things without command!!! If that isn't "fully sapient", I'm not sure how someone can claim a familiar is...
As far as agendas and personality... That's unsaid: they might have none, being a magic version of a drone. This is actually a great example. A familiar being a magical being essentially means that they are basically a construct, made entirely of magic. Any evidence of intelligence, or any movement or other abilities they gain are added to them, similar to gray's smartphone example.
It isn't impossible for a smartphone to display real legitimate examples of intelligence, however they can't do it on their own. They need to be programmed to do so. This is a good way to look at Familiars. They can be molded to a ton of different purposes, but must be programmed to serve them.
beowulf99 wrote: graystone wrote: Seisho wrote: Yeah, they have no scores but familars are per definition rather intelligent beeings (at the very least able to understand speech and with the right abilities able to speak with others and use tools) Speech in no way means intelligence/sapience: My smartphone can understand speech and speak. I can also cast speak with animals but granting those animals the ability to communicate with me doesn't impact their intelligence/sapience. As to tool use, mindless skeletons can do that: Skeletal Giant uses a glaive for instance.
Secondly, Even an intelligent items from the gamemestery guide isn't automatically "fully sapient" even though it has real stats, an alignment trait, and can speak! They even have 3 of their own actions and can do things without command!!! If that isn't "fully sapient", I'm not sure how someone can claim a familiar is...
As far as agendas and personality... That's unsaid: they might have none, being a magic version of a drone. This is actually a great example. A familiar being a magical being essentially means that they are basically a construct, made entirely of magic. Any evidence of intelligence, or any movement or other abilities they gain are added to them, similar to gray's smartphone example.
It isn't impossible for a smartphone to display real legitimate examples of intelligence, however they can't do it on their own. They need to be programmed to do so. This is a good way to look at Familiars. They can be molded to a ton of different purposes, but must be programmed to serve them. This is actually an interesting point of view. I had not yet considered the possibility that familars might be something like magical constructs. But it makes sense, you just have to give them some kind of 'artificial intelligence'
I still would consider it a very advanced one - and if they feel emotions, well there was never any kind of rule about it, so I just assume that my familiar loves me and hope it becomes friends with my friends :P
Seisho wrote: beowulf99 wrote: graystone wrote: Seisho wrote: Yeah, they have no scores but familars are per definition rather intelligent beeings (at the very least able to understand speech and with the right abilities able to speak with others and use tools) Speech in no way means intelligence/sapience: My smartphone can understand speech and speak. I can also cast speak with animals but granting those animals the ability to communicate with me doesn't impact their intelligence/sapience. As to tool use, mindless skeletons can do that: Skeletal Giant uses a glaive for instance.
Secondly, Even an intelligent items from the gamemestery guide isn't automatically "fully sapient" even though it has real stats, an alignment trait, and can speak! They even have 3 of their own actions and can do things without command!!! If that isn't "fully sapient", I'm not sure how someone can claim a familiar is...
As far as agendas and personality... That's unsaid: they might have none, being a magic version of a drone. This is actually a great example. A familiar being a magical being essentially means that they are basically a construct, made entirely of magic. Any evidence of intelligence, or any movement or other abilities they gain are added to them, similar to gray's smartphone example.
It isn't impossible for a smartphone to display real legitimate examples of intelligence, however they can't do it on their own. They need to be programmed to do so. This is a good way to look at Familiars. They can be molded to a ton of different purposes, but must be programmed to serve them. This is actually an interesting point of view. I had not yet considered the possibility that familars might be something like magical constructs. But it makes sense, you just have to give them some kind of 'artificial intelligence'
I still would consider it a very advanced one - and if they feel emotions, well there was never any kind of rule about it, so I just assume that my familiar loves me and hope it becomes friends with my friends :P Well thats going down a very deep inbetween the lines. Golarion's equivalent to Black Mirror might cover that topic.
Malk_Content wrote: Wermut wrote: Kelseus wrote: Wermut wrote: Kelseus wrote: This tells you all you need to know. Snakes are listed as examples for familiars, Vipers have a statblock in the bestiary so what happens with the poison of viper familiar?
The Familiar only gets what the rules explicitly say they get. That's it. If it's not on the list they don't get it. I'd assumed so, damn having an evil wizard with a bloodseeker as familiar would have been a nice touch for a villain PC familiar rules dont stop this in anyway. If your designing a villain you aren't bound by pc rules.
All you have to decide really is if the bloodseeker is a minion to the villain or not. While absolutely true I usually try to emulate player options as closely as possible to make the world more consistent.
Well as closely as possible in this case would be treat it as an animal companion minion that they've added some familiar abilities to.
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