1) We know that a creature that got zombified/skeletified can't be resurrected. But can the body of a resurrected creature be zombified/skeletified ?
I'm assuming you mean: 1. Person dies. 2. Person is resurrected in a new body (true ressurection etc), leaving a 2nd body uninhabited. 3. Person creates undead using now un-needed body.
RAW I think Yes, RAI I'm not sure.
2) Why can't divine casters cast spells of opposite alignment ? Is that because it's an act of THAT alignment ?
Kind of. It's like a wizard's opposed schools, if you specialise in one you're weak to the other.
Does casting 20 time an arcane spell tagged "evil" slowly turn and corrupt the soul of the caster ? How does that interact with wands ?
Yes and it's dumb. I don't mind the concept, but the way Paizo officially did it is that 3 castings can take you from good to Neutral, and I think 6 castings can take you from Neutral to Evil. Considering Alignment is supoosed to represent the long-term leaning of your soul, having the ability to change your alignment by using a wand for less than a minute shouldn't be a thing.
It also gives a way to massively game the system - want to cast evil spells without damning your soul? Cast GREATER FALSE RESURRECTION on the Paladin King, then cast activate your wand of celestial healing (for 0hp healed) a couple of times and you're fine. And yes if it wasn't obvious it works with wands.
Nobody I know uses these rules (even PFS).
Bonus: Is committing an act of evil for the greater good an: Evil, Neutral or Good act ?
It would be an Evil act, but it might also be a good act. Unless you're a Paladin it probably doesn't matter. If you are a Paladin you have to find another way or square with the idea of losing all your powers (or dump WIS so your perception and sense motive are terrible, and let your party do evil acts without you).
A single act should never change your alignment. Alignment is about your core beliefs and goals. It represents how you feel and act in the long term.
Killing an innocent person - even for purely selfish reasons - shouldn't change your alignment. If it did then you could simply go save a life and change it back, and that's just silly.
A Paladin who willfully commits an evil act won't instantly become Evil. They won't even turn Neutral. They will lose their powers though =P and be left as a Lawful Good Warrrior (NPC class) with many regrets.
So... After a remark of Derklord, I got two questions that popped into my head. (fused into one topic because ecology and the first question will not last that long)
1) We know that a creature that got zombified/skeletified can't be resurrected. But can the body of a resurrected creature be zombified/skeletified ?
I think it depends on your definition of corpse and so it would be up to the DM. If you define it as the body of a dead creature then, that creature being alive in some other form would make the original body no longer a corpse, which makes it no longer eligible for the spell. A Clone would not be an eligible target for the same reason, it isn't the body of a dead creature, it's the body of a creature that is alive.
If you define it differently, then IMO this creates a situation that could be abused, resulting in some unintended exploits.
2) Why can't divine casters cast spells of opposite alignment ? Is that because it's an act of THAT alignment ? Does casting 20 time an arcane spell tagged "evil" slowly turn and corrupt the soul of the caster ? How does that interact with wands ?
Bonus: Is committing an act of evil for the greater good an: Evil, Neutral or Good act ?
Divine spell casters have no such limit. Clerics on the other hand do have this limitation. A cleric is a faith based class and so it makes sense that they can't cast spells that go against their ethics. It's not that casting a spell with a lawful descriptor is automatically a lawful act. It's that casting such a spell goes against the chaotic cleric's "identity" and personal code. This is why a CG cleric of a NG deity can not cast a spell with the lawful descriptor. Even though both NG and LG worshipers of the same deity could cast the spell without issue.
Now, certainly a DM could use the rule that casting a spell with a particular alignment descriptor is considered an act of that alignment. I think many DMs don't like this interpretation as it ends up feeling very videogamey and it takes the morals out of moral choices. "I'm a good person because I cast protection from evil on my CE buddy a bunch of times. You know, to make up for village I pillaged last week."
Ultimately, it's the DM's call. If you're using the rule that states that casting a spell of X alignment is an X act then it is always that way. So, casting a spell with a Good descriptor is always a Good act even if you're doing it for evil reasons and it results in something evil happening.
For example, using the spell Holy Word to kill some LN guards, in order to help the (higher level) CE criminal they were escorting escape.
So... After a remark of Derklord, I got two questions that popped into my head. (fused into one topic because ecology and the first question will not last that long)
1) We know that a creature that got zombified/skeletified can't be resurrected. But can the body of a resurrected creature be zombified/skeletified ?
2) Why can't divine casters cast spells of opposite alignment ? Is that because it's an act of THAT alignment ? Does casting 20 time an arcane spell tagged "evil" slowly turn and corrupt the soul of the caster ? How does that interact with wands ?
Bonus: Is committing an act of evil for the greater good an: Evil, Neutral or Good act ?
1. Technically yes. It doesn't make much sense given that animating a corpse as undead is presumed to have some effect on the soul (preventing resurrection/reincarnation).
The neatest way to make this work as a house rule is to simply have any spell or effect that resurrects or reincarnates a creature consume the original body as part of the effect. Then there's nothing to animate. But admittedly there is something hilarious about an evil druid and their army of zombie themselves. X D
2. Clerics and warpriests can't cast opposite-alignment spells because it violates their commitment to their patron deity/philosophy. Paladins and antipalainds can't because it violates their code of conduct. Other divine casters for the most part have no restriction on casting opposing-alignment spells unless in doing so they shift to an unsupportable alignment. (Most such classes can be any alignment, so *shrug*.)
3. As mentioned above, it's evil, but maybe also good.
RP? No good being that know what it would touch it with a 10f pole. It's like using nazi blood in a ritual that the nazi themselves created.
I see this completely different. I see that like for instance parents refusing life saving medicine for their child because they hold some arbitrary, not explained classification into good and evil based on some faith or believe to be more important. That's something I personally see as very wrong. Yes, in Pathfinder, deities are something indisputable real, and the setting has an objective alignment system, but I don't see how that changes the nature of an act based on who used it before (cf. Hitler ate sugar), nor do I see how a spell component that you might not even use at all defines the alignment of the spell independent of effect or what you use it for.
Regarding the demon blood, using "evil" stuff for healing is an absolute staple of modern medicine. The first ever discovered antibiotic, penicillin, was originally derived from a mould that spoils food. Radioactivity, which is among the deadliest things on the planet, is a vital weapon against cancer. Many animal venoms and toxins have certain healing properties in the correct (small) doses, for instance the first medicine against often deadly high blood preassure came from a viper's venom.
If the cost was "virgin blood", that would be the same, because: Who cares? There is no price so you got how many litter of that thing you need.
Does menstrual blood count? If yes, that might give young women a source of income that would even allow them to e.g. fully attend school, I'd call that a good thing. Seriously though, it isn't virgin blood. It's demon blood. If demons get slaughtered en masse to provide the material component, that's a win for "team good". Quite frankly, tapping angels for their blood sounds more evil. Maybe we should switch the spell's alignment tags of Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing! Not even kidding here.
I think some veterans are so jaded that they simply forget to see past the rules and into the RP of the things they do simply because "THaT's NoT iN tHe RuLz".
To quote myself from another thread on this topic (there's been a few), "if I'd want to hear "It's evil because we say so, even though we give absolutly zero reason, yet you have to accept that our word is the law" I'd go to catholic school and not play Pathfinder."
The perhaps biggest issue (for me at least) is that we have no explanation what makes these spells evil. Corpse animation is supposedly evil ebcause it traps the soul in the body, if that's the reason, why aren't Trap the Soul and Soul Bind evil as well? Killing an enemy Wizard, prying the spellbook from is still warm hands, wiping the blood of, and copyign the spell into your own book is fine, but if you cast Blood Transcription on the wiped off blood, you're suddenly doign something evil?
Your argument of "slowly turn and corrupt the soul of the caster" has been brought up multiple times but a) Horror Adventures contains a corruption system, which would have been perfect for that, yet they decided not to use it, and b) willingly accepting a taint on your own soul to, say, save dying children doesn't make the act less good, but more so. Self sacrifice is pretty much the very definition of an unequivocally good act.
Honestly, if you can't explain why something is evil, I vehemently refuse to accept that it is evil, and I think that's a guideline every human being should follow. And while this doesn't have to apply to characters, the game's alignment system is not something that can be fully seperated from real life.
In the end, the CRB says that "There’s no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment", that "alignment is solely a label the GM controls", and that "it’s generally not necessary to worry too much about whether someone is behaving differently from his stated alignment." I see these things as the core foundation of the alignment system, and everything that goes against that is a houserule that should be discussed before the campaign starts.
RAI? It's supposed to be some kind of temptation.
Is that explicitly said somewhere?
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RAW: healing spell is a GOOD act, thus casting too many healing spells turns you GOOD. Casting animate dead, or other necromancer spells is an EVIL act, and too many will turn you EVIL.
My TRUE NEUTRAL Dual channeling Cleric of Nethys animates dead and heals people. Not popular with the LG crowd. But C'est la vie et la mort.
Alignment is purely used as class restriction and for bonus abilities. It has no real bearing on game mechanics other than realms and abilities that say it matters. PFS use "good" as a baseline because they wish to extol in players cooperation and friendship and not have devious little backstabbers playing the game. Because there's no PVP.
RAW: healing spell is a GOOD act
The most commonly used healing spells (cure * wounds and heal) do not have the [good] descriptor.
Casting a healing spell might be a good act in some cases, but this is not universally true.
RAW: healing spell is a GOOD act, thus casting too many healing spells turns you GOOD. Casting animate dead, or other necromancer spells is an EVIL act, and too many will turn you EVIL.
My TRUE NEUTRAL Dual channeling Cleric of Nethys animates dead and heals people. Not popular with the LG crowd. But C'est la vie et la mort.
The conjuration (healing) spells used by most characters (eg. Cure Light Wounds, Breath of Life, Heal) do not have the good descriptor and therefore are not "good" spells. Celestial Healing is a Conjuration (healing) spell that also has the good descriptor.
Conversely, Animate Dead is a Necromancy Spell that has the evil descriptor.
Just casting cure light wounds or inflict light wounds will not shift your alignment by the rules if what you're doing is considered neither good nor evil by the DM.
Casting Animate Dead or Celestial Healing on the other hand, could cause your alignment to shift since these spells carry the Evil and Good descriptors respectively. Similarly Casting Chaos Hammer or Dictum could also cause your alignment to shift along the Lawful/Chaotic Axis.
It's up to the DM if they want the casting of spells with alignment descriptors to have an effect on your character's alignment.
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RAW: healing spell is a GOOD actThe most commonly used healing spells (cure * wounds and heal) do not have the [good] descriptor.
Casting a healing spell might be a good act in some cases, but this is not universally true.
Right. I was thinking of "bless water"... Sorry. For 75 gp I can negate those 12 zombies that follow me around....
Right. I was thinking of "bless water"... Sorry. For 75 gp I can negate those 12 zombies that follow me around....RAW: healing spell is a GOOD actThe most commonly used healing spells (cure * wounds and heal) do not have the [good] descriptor.
Casting a healing spell might be a good act in some cases, but this is not universally true.
Celestial healing is a better bet. For 750gp you get 50 charges of "shift alignment - good" (which does literally nothing else since it has a duration of 0 rounds).
Don't even vet me started on the "Cure X Wounds" spells - why are they Conjuration, but the "Inflict X Wounds" spells are Necromancy?
Essentially these are things that weren't thought through properly, or were just made to be inconsistent intentionally. I wouldn't try to read too much into it, most (all?) games I know of ignore the alignment system for the most part.
if im not mistaken shifting your alignment from casting good or evil spells was an optional rule from the 'Horror Adventures' book. and even then i believe it's stated to only happen for doing it for intended reasons (evil spells for doing evil and good for good.
if im not mistaken shifting your alignment from casting good or evil spells was an optional rule from the 'Horror Adventures' book. and even then i believe it's stated to only happen for doing it for intended reasons (evil spells for doing evil and good for good.
That sidebar was the topic of the post by me that the OP referred to.
Don't even vet me started on the "Cure X Wounds" spells - why are they Conjuration, but the "Inflict X Wounds" spells are Necromancy?
NECROMANCY IS EVIL SO ALL ITS SPELLS MUST BE EVIL AND HEALING IS NOT EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!1111
I know right!
*Ahem*
TLDR: Don't try to make sense of everything, some of it doesn't make sense =P
I always just go with the PFS rules [at least for Infernal Healing], not the Horror rules.
https://paizo.com/organizedplay/faq#v5748eaic9vho
PFS FAQ:
Q: "Does casting evil spells cause an alignment infraction?"
A: "Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, though it may violate a character's code or tenets of faith. Commiting an evil act outside of casting a spell, such as using an evil spell to torment an innocent NPC, is an alignment infraction."
Horror Rules:
I don't have the exact quote, but essentially 2 castings takes the character from Good to Neutral, and 3 further castings takes one from Neutral to Evil.