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Hey all, some of you might've seen me post this on the 2E subreddit, but now that I have both videos done, I wanted to share it here as well.
After Jason Bulhman made the claim that the CRB could be used to make at least 42,000 characters with five character creation choices, I set out to both prove that claim, then very unnecessarily keep going to see just how big that number might get:
After publishing that video, I fairly quickly realized that there was enough content to create a Comments & Corrections video, so I set out to make that as well. While there were a decent number of corrections, for me it felt less like there were a lot, and more that the ones that were there made the math so much more complicated, lol. And, out of all of the corrections I addressed, there was only one that made the number smaller. All of the others only made things more crazy, lol. Now that that video is done too, I hope you all can enjoy them both!
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Nice work! I worked it out to a few more multipliers (based off the possibility of taking feats that gave a choice of other feats, if I recall) that got up in the quadrillions in the lead-up to the edition after marketing folks were curious, but in the end we didn't wind up promoting that number because of an effect where numbers so high are too big to be relatable to someone hearing the number.
Thanks for responding to this! Yeah, towards the end, finding ways to keep the numbers in any realm of conceptual and relatable is its own problem, lol.
I'd be really curious to trade notes on how you got into the quadrillions! I thought I managed to hunt down all the feats that opened up more feat choices, at least at level 1. Certainly at level 2 this explodes even more astronomically!
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I wonder how we could filter out characters that don't make sense. Like "Crossbow rangers with 18 strength and 10 dex".
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Nice work! I worked it out to a few more multipliers (based off the possibility of taking feats that gave a choice of other feats, if I recall) that got up in the quadrillions in the lead-up to the edition after marketing folks were curious, but in the end we didn't wind up promoting that number because of an effect where numbers so high are too big to be relatable to someone hearing the number.
I think the biggest boon for PF2e isn't how many options can be made, but that the vast majority of options chosen still result in a playable character and actually have an impact on play choices (feats usually expanding what you can do or how you can do it rather than numerically boosting).
PF1e CRB to PF2e CRB has more characters that can be built thanks to skill ranks, level by level multiclassing and feats that can be taken by anyone if they match the prereqs. But in play PF1e CRB has far less freedom in building a character and actually creating viable characters that won't fall apart when they hit levels 8+, and many of the choices are so minor it has no impact despite being technically a different character build.
So good job to yourself and everyone else who worked on the system, because it is rare that a crunchy system gets the priorities of play first right :)
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As you can do any race/class combination with any stat at 16 i think a nice number would involve not using stats at all. E.g there are hundreds of dwarf crossbow ranger variations but all we care about is that the concept has at least one stat array that works
Yeah, that's definitely one of the reasons I stop at every stage of the math to show the total number at that point. If you think it makes more sense to not include the ability scores, then you have the number right before then at alignments, same before that stopping at feats.
And I completely agree with Gleeful Grognard! It's really impressive how much freedom I feel in making characters in 2E.
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Just factoring in ancestry, heritage, background, and class (including class-specific choices such as alchemist research field, barbarian instinct, bard muse, etc.) - without even considering feats and "builds"- gets: (5 dwarf + 5 elf + 5 gnome + 5 goblin + 5 halfling + 4 human) x 35 backgrounds x (3 alchemist + 5 barbarian + 3 bard + 3 champion + 2 cleric + 4 druid + 1 fighter + 1 monk + 3 ranger + 3 rogue + 10 sorcerer + 36* wizard) classes = 29 x 35 x 74 = 75,110 variations.
Given the free ability boosts for ancestry and background, in addition to the four free ability boosts at 1st level, a minimum of 16 in the character's key ability is pretty much a given. Every single one of the 75,000+ possible characters should therefore be considered "viable" (not necessarily "optimal," but "viable").
*- 9 schools (including Universalist) x 4 theses
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Thanks for responding to this! Yeah, towards the end, finding ways to keep the numbers in any realm of conceptual and relatable is its own problem, lol.
I'd be really curious to trade notes on how you got into the quadrillions! I thought I managed to hunt down all the feats that opened up more feat choices, at least at level 1. Certainly at level 2 this explodes even more astronomically!
Unfortunately, those notes were among some papers I sent to the shredder to clean up my desk a bit at the time, so I might not be able to guess easily. I figure it's likely either a cascading feat or maybe another such subselection where selecting one thing allowed selecting something else. It could even be how we decided to deal with technically unbounded (or weakly bounded) choices, like certain backgrounds give you a choice of a "Lore associated with a settlement."
Just factoring in ancestry, heritage, background, and class (including class-specific choices such as alchemist research field, barbarian instinct, bard muse, etc.) - without even considering feats and "builds"- gets: (5 dwarf + 5 elf + 5 gnome + 5 goblin + 5 halfling + 4 human) x 35 backgrounds x (3 alchemist + 5 barbarian + 3 bard + 3 champion + 2 cleric + 4 druid + 1 fighter + 1 monk + 3 ranger + 3 rogue + 10 sorcerer + 36* wizard) classes = 29 x 35 x 74 = 75,110 variations.
*- 9 schools (including Universalist) x 4 theses
Yeah, that's more or less what I go through in my first video, though I also include the subchoices within Barbarian and Sorcerer options.
How many options are there just in class, archetype, and ancestry options sans skill feats, backgrounds, and stat arrays?
To answer that, I'll take the 104,545 number that I found for the first five character creation choices, then divide back out the 35 backgrounds to get 2,987 combinations. You didn't mention the heritages, so we could divide those out too, though by then we're getting pretty low.
Unfortunately, those notes were among some papers I sent to the shredder to clean up my desk a bit at the time, so I might not be able to guess easily. I figure it's likely either a cascading feat or maybe another such subselection where selecting one thing allowed selecting something else. It could even be how we decided to deal with technically unbounded (or weakly bounded) choices, like certain backgrounds give you a choice of a "Lore associated with a settlement."
Damn, I may put some time into looking for that. Though that last example of a lore associated with different regions was something that I didn't have in scope for this project, so that could explain it. I really just kinda said "eh, everyone gets 1 Lore of some kind" and called it there for Lore.
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42,000? You gotta pump those numbers up, Those are rookie numbers.
At last count, class dedication feats alone accounted for 665,280 possible combinations.
*Watches videos*
All right, all right, all right.
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I mean, this really boils down to what do we consider a "unique" character.
While it's true we can have hundreds of thousands of total combinations, escalating to millions soon enough with the APG release, there are factors well outside of "the system" which drive unique characters. Does alignment count? What about different "versions" of the same alignment, both following the same "rules" of alignment, but in their own personal way so as not to be caught in a straight-jacket? Gender, age, eye color, weight, height, etc. How important are these, as well as the system itself is, to making what many would call a "unique" character? Plus, does attribute allocation order matter as a "unique" choice if the result by the time the character is created is exactly the same?
As it stands I've made what I'd like to call 3 "unique characters," but they are pretty cookie cutter compared to most "combinations" that other players could/would normally make. Leominar Halxian, A Half-Cavern Elf LG Champion of Shelyn who wields her favored weapon, the Glaive, which he wields as a paintbrush of War, where he treats his enemies as color palettes to the canvas that is the battlefield. Kel'Novar, a CN Cavern Elf Wizard who was enslaved by Drow and inadvertently taught himself the ways of Nethys and the Arcane Arts as both a means to persevere from his sheltered Cavern life while at the same time prying freedom from his oppressors to seek out the living truth. Ulgrad Stoneridge, a LG Dwarf Monk whose training in the way of the mountains will make himself become strong enough to move and overcome them, to prove that even the tallest of giants are just as "weak and powerless" as the dwarves they are at war with (his life was sadly cut short in the Fall of Plaguestone finale, though this was done intentionally meta-game-wise).
Off the top of my head, all of those characters have Darkvision, all of those characters have Fleet (and the 2 Elf types have Nimble as well), two are of the same trait (elf), and all of them took dedication feats (even if separate ones). Two even share the same alignment (for different reasons, one of which is totally metagame). If I made 3 characters whom all share similar features (Darkvision, Dedications, General Feats, etc.), can I consider them "unique" because they're a playstyle I prefer (since I've experienced what happens when you can't see in an area with little to no movement speed all too often, and it stinks gameplay wise), and are just different means to the same result? And that's just the in-system stuff. Imagine the limitations (or lack thereof) with the non-system stuff like roleplaying.
I'd have to say if we can get an objective "definition" of what a "unique" character represents, we'd have an accurate way to gauge just how many that is. Though I can personally say that if we're going to include non-system based stuff as well, the combinations are practically endless.
I mean, this really boils down to what do we consider a "unique" character.
Yeah, that's what i was thinking: is a fighter with everything the same as another except on uses a longsword unique compared to another using a Scimitar? The answer is going to vary depending who you ask. How much variation is required for uniqueness is the real question. I can't see the viseo in the first post, so I'm unsure what customization points we're talking about.
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From what I viewed it's about character generation choices, and not just abilities you gain that other choices inadvertently share. It does not factor in equipment, item, or level-up (past 1st level) choices, merely the ABCs, feats, etc. of 1st level and how all of those can be combined. Rough math from the video calculates that just starting out it's technically in the 6 billion range (AKA the whole entire world population). This will increase based on the level-up choices for class feats, as well as when new content is released (this factors only Core Rulebook content as far as I know, no additional stuff from other source supplements).
However, the odds of players making different characters having all of those potential combinations (or the legality of some of those character combinations), as well as factoring in which choices would actually be the same result (such as attribute allocations via ABCs) are slim, and some of which are inconsequential (hence why I call it "rough math").
Ok, thanks for the overview. You can replace the weapon choices with two different Weapon Proficiency [pick an advanced weapon] feats in my previous post then to keep my point intact without without equipment. [or, say, 2 different Assurance feats] I mean if you count all the different lores you could take with Additional Lore, there are an INFINITE number of unique characters you could make. ;)
Infinite is a lot.
I mean, this really boils down to what do we consider a "unique" character.Yeah, that's what i was thinking: is a fighter with everything the same as another except on uses a longsword unique compared to another using a Scimitar? The answer is going to vary depending who you ask. How much variation is required for uniqueness is the real question. I can't see the viseo in the first post, so I'm unsure what customization points we're talking about.
Oh? What's blocking the video in the post? If it's something I can fix on my end, I'll do my best.
As far as what exactly "unique" means, I completely agree that that's a very important question that the rest of this gets built on.
Since I was verifying Bulmahn's 42,000 claim, I started with the same criteria he used: ABCs plus heritage and subclass. Just to see how much further we could take it, I went with some of the next logical steps in character creation from there: First class and ancestry feats, then alignment and diety, then ability scores. I stopped there because the numbers were getting well beyond the population of the planet at that point, lol.
In the first video I also go over the fact that as I get into alignments and further, the difference on the character sheet becomes less and less, and the onus is placed more and more on the player to RP the differences, and I acknowledge that. Even more so once we get into ability scores, where some of the differences are just a 12 and a 10 swapped between two scores. Ready for people to have differing opinions on where the best stopping point is, I included the "final" number at the end of each section before moving on to the next option.
I only got into skills/lore just enough to estimate how many skill feats could be available to choose from for either the Rogue or one of the Human options that opens up any general feat. Especially to your point about infinite Lores, and how unique is it really at that point, is why I stopped at "Everyone is getting 1 Lore of some kind with their background", and I treated Additional Lore as just the 1 choice of the feat itself. Things felt too granular at the point of skills to look at that too deeply.
For more details, or if you want to double check my math, here's the spreadsheet I used to help me:
The only thing it doesn't include is the final numbers of each section that I mentioned. It's a little haphazard at the moment, but now that the second video is out and I feel more comfortable breathing for a second, I'll probably make it more readable and even more automated sometime in the next month.
What's blocking the video in the post? If it's something I can fix on my end, I'll do my best.
It's on my end 100%. I'd have to go someplace and leech off free wifi to watch and I'd rather not camp out at a fast food joint to do so. It's the reason all these podcasts and such get ignored by me since it's a pain in the butt to deal with. ;)