I just received the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition. It seems that it follows the fast advancement track, I guess this is probably a leftover from the 3.5 edition. Is it?
It even suggests that it is possible to inform the PCs when they can level up their characters at fixed points without giving out any experience points. There is even an advancement track to help in the task.
What do you think of this method? It would take away a lot of bookkeping from the GM. But it could also water down the AP, as the PCs might not feel compelled to give their best, as they level up anyway...
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The "level at certain plot times" approach can work just fine. It really depends on your players. I find calculating XP to be rather fun, but I'm a math nerd. I've played in several groups that leveled at the "story" pace and they worked great too. I have some very mature and good local groups though.
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I would do away with xp entirely. The point is, to enjoy the AP properly, the PCs need to be of certain levels at certain points - they get killed or it will be too easy otherwise.
I found an idea somewhere on the net (might have been, once again, by Monte Cook), that allowed the PCs to advance "part of a level". Basically, it looked at the mechanic advantages given, and broke them down into groups, who could be taken individually to improve the character every quarter level.
The *only* reason I like to track XP is so I can reward clever PCs for novel solutions or excellent roleplaying; I don't hesitate to toss out 25 XP awards for particularly good soliloquys or novel solutions to problems I've presented to 1st level characters. It doubles to 50 XP at 2nd level, 100 XP at 3rd level, and so forth (though I do eventually have to tone it down to keep it in line with the appropriate % of a level).
So I like XP because it lets me reward my PCs for playing well, and they'll level up faster than PCs 'just going through the motions'.
But I think it would indeed be a lot easier to say, "OK, you reached point XX. Everyone level up."
So I can see arguments either way; depends on how you want to GM.
I had nightmares in Crimson Throne because the XP awards were designed for 3.5 XP, and even on PF fast track the characters weren't nearly the levels they were supposed to be. I added lots of content to make up for it. It would have been easier to remove some of the "less moving" additional content (go in the caves and kill an otyugh, anyone?) and replace it with a simple, "You're up a level now."
The method I use is that I calculate the XP and then inform the players when they level. So while they never know how much XP they have they cannot just bypass major story elements in order to level up faster. This also allows me to fudge the XP a bit if I need to. Sometimes they are close to leveling and I would rather they level before a certain encounter.
- Gauss
My DM plans to do this in our next campaign...no xp, just add the level at the benchmarks. Alternatley though he does hand out character points that can be used to influence die rolls or saved up for feats and things..so he doest still have a carrot to dangle for superior play. You could consider doing something similar if you have concerns about keeping up motivation?
My DM plans to do this in our next campaign...no xp, just add the level at the benchmarks. Alternatley though he does hand out character points that can be used to influence die rolls or saved up for feats and things..so he doest still have a carrot to dangle for superior play. You could consider doing something similar if you have concerns about keeping up motivation?
It seems like a good compromise. Also, giving out character points (I guess you are talking about hero points) is a nice way to reward players who give their best!
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I kind of do both.
I'm running RotRL on the medium track, but I'm also throwing in a bunch of side-quests.
I dutifully record XPs and award them, but I track it all on a spreadsheet. If they haven't hit the minimum for the next section, I give them a "Story Award," to bring them up to the right level.
That way, the players have a sense of advancement, and I don't have to worry so much about trying to run a sidequest at an annoying time.
My DM plans to do this in our next campaign...no xp, just add the level at the benchmarks. Alternatley though he does hand out character points that can be used to influence die rolls or saved up for feats and things..so he doest still have a carrot to dangle for superior play. You could consider doing something similar if you have concerns about keeping up motivation?It seems like a good compromise. Also, giving out character points (I guess you are talking about hero points) is a nice way to reward players who give their best!
Pretty much, he has his own system that we have used since 3.5....but you get the gist by assuming hero points.
Having the PCs level "when they should" is what I'm doing with the two APs I'm DMing. It works fine, and saves us time.
The only campaign I'm counting XP is my homebrew, because it's a pure sandbox. So I'm assuming that the same would apply to an AP such as, say, Kingmaker.
Pretty much, he has his own system that we have used since 3.5....but you get the gist by assuming hero points.
Any chance you could get your hands on a copy of this? I've been looking for something very similar to this to award my players with as I was thinking of just using the "you level now" aspect.
I usually use the advancement tracks list to have PCs level up at the recommended times. This lets me slow it down a bit when they start smearing everything into a paste on the first round.
To reward creativity and role-playing I create custom gear for those that earn it.
My face to face group is going through RotR, and I've been using the "level at set points" method - but now they're stuck on what to do about the
In fact, they're coming over today, so I guess I'll see if I have to drop some fairly obvious clues about what to do, or what. Maybe I'll level them anyway and allow bad things to happen later if they don't deal with their problem...
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A little thread necromancy going on here.
I will say that I use the level at fixed points scenario. I run a table with 9 players on it, I sure as hell don't want any more book keeping.
Reading ahead I know what is coming up and what I will have to do to increase the challenge rating. So the fixed point works great. Depending on the difficulty I will hold them back and wait somewhat, or allow them to level slightly earlier.
I track XP, but also keep aware of the published benchmarks for leveling too. So far, the 2 methods have stayed fairly close to leveling at the same times.
My party of 4 just finished Foxglove Manor, and they are firmly into 6th level from XP. But they also have missed out on quite a bit of XP (not sure if they care that the Manor is still haunted or if they will seek a way to un-haunt the place).
My face to face group is going through RotR, and I've been using the "level at set points" method - but now they're stuck on what to do about the ** spoiler omitted ** Not sure what to do about this, other than returning to giving out XP instead so they can see what they need to level. I think it would encourage them to try to do something about their problems instead of ignoring them if they could see they weren't far from leveling.
In fact, they're coming over today, so I guess I'll see if I have to drop some fairly obvious clues about what to do, or what. Maybe I'll level them anyway and allow bad things to happen later if they don't deal with their problem...
I'm currently running a party through RotRL. I'm using the medium advancement track. My 4 person party reached 2nd level just before reaching Thisteltop, and they had no problem getting through alive and well. A bit of creative thinking can help compensate for a lower level. Give them the level 3 boost after they've defeated Chief Ripnugget or Gogmurt if you feel they haven't accomplished enough at this point to deserve level 3. Then, if they go back and deal with Runewell, think of some other way to reward them, and if they forget, you have a huge hook right under their feet to make use of.
I'm currently running a party through RotRL. I'm using the medium advancement track. My 4 person party reached 2nd level just before reaching Thisteltop, and they had no problem getting through alive and well. A bit of creative thinking can help compensate for a lower level.
They aren't that creative a group, it would seem - smack and attack is the order of the day most of the time. Today I introduced them to some of the NPCs that might be able to help them, so maybe they'll take the hint.
Give them the level 3 boost after they've defeated Chief Ripnugget or Gogmurt if you feel they haven't accomplished enough at this point to deserve level 3. Then, if they go back and deal with Runewell, think of some other way to reward them, and if they forget, you have a huge hook right under their feet to make use of.
I'll probably end up doing this, just because I hate bookkeeping too much to go back to XP.
How to motivate them is another story. These are players who refuse to do a short recap of what happened last time in exchange for free Hero Points... /undead threadjack
Hmm... If they aren't too creative then I would highly recommend giving them that level after they defeat Gogmurt. They're unlikely to survive the fight with Ripnugget if they just charge in blindly without a plan.
They don't even let you give them a recap? Wow...
Motivation... Hmm... What kind of players do you have ? (PC classes and player types.) And are we talking about motivating them to go back to the Runewell or motivating them to go to Thisteltop?
Motivating them with perks just doesn't seem to help in general. I had a hard time getting them to pick out traits, which essentially are a bonus feat. One player picked a trait and refused to meet the prereqs for it (racial). Sigh. I gave in on that one.
The group consists of:
- a female aasimar paladin of Iomedae (player is an older woman who likes to tinker with the rules in favor of flavor)
- a male Shoanti Shundar Quah druid with a wolf companion (player is a middle-aged man who works a lot and is often half-asleep)
- a male half-elf rogue/shadow sorceror (our resident middle-aged male rules lawyer)
- a male dwarf fighter (a middle-aged woman roleplaying newbie, but shaping up to be a great roleplayer)
- a female gnome frost sorceror (a middle-aged man who hates getting into details like 'what's on my sheet' - in fact, he hates having a sheet at all. He's the most resistant to following the rules, and has a tendency to sulk if a battle isn't going their way - he refuses to retreat)
I'd say they're all pretty good roleplayers. They just... need a push sometimes. Right now they're at a loss as to what to do, so I came right out and said maybe they should re-read the handout with Tsuto's journal. Their response: "Meh." Didn't bother to dig it out. They probably will next time though.
With any luck they'll at least attempt to do something about the runewell before tackling Thistletop, but they seem to have forgotten about the clue with Erylium's blood (and that something similar happened when the paladin stuck her arm in the runewell), and I hate to spoon-feed them the solution... :/
Player woes
A couple of your statements remind me of several of my players.
It sounds more to me that several need the startling awakening that their own lack of willingness to immerse themselves in the game means that their PCs are going to fall behind in the Experience (and XP), and possibly die because of it.
You've given them more than enough opportunities to help themselves - it's time to stop pulling punchess. Remind them of the ways you've given them to excelled and then explain the gloves are coming off. Because frankly, if they just want to hack'n'slash, they need to just invest in some video games and stop wasting your time as a GM. Politely, if possible. Then start racking up kills as "legally" as possible. The fact that their own unpreparedness is hindering them shouldn't make it difficult.
Then begin rewarding the good role-players at the table with extra gold, items, and in really awesome moments XP. Maybe even those are the only PCs that can be brought back from the dead. Once everyone "gets it," phase it all out.
This has worked several times for my group as they've gotten lax and tightened again over the years.
To be honest, purging the pool isn't a big deal. My group didn't do it 'til after clearing out ALL of Thistletop, at which point they got a hold of Nualia's notes. Then they tried finding a way to destroy it permanently. (That got nixed when they found out just how much it would cost. They suggested the town do a tax, and the Scarnettis said "why don't we just collapse the ceiling of the area so no one can use it?")
Random encounters can easily give them extra XPs prior to the battle at Thistletop. Have them run into a war party of a dozen goblins with maybe a worg rider. You could even have it be tough enough that they either have to camp out to recover spells... or have to retreat. The point is to get them enough XPs to be close to leveling up before they go into the depths of Thistletop.
Of course, I'm also running my group as one level higher (and increasing the difficulty of everything as a result) as I feel the extra HPs improve survivability, but that's just me. ^^;;
Thanks for your suggestions, guys.
Also, since I'm using the "level up at set points" method instead of handing out XP, running extra combats is just a filler rather than having a purpose. I'll probably have to follow William's advice and let them level after dealing with Gogmurt, if they survive that encounter. Then the runewell can disgorge a spinspawn to lure them back into the catacombs. Maybe I'll let them make an Int check to remind them of the clues they've seen already. :/
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This all seems like un-sanctioned play yes? i am new to all of this and at least trying to do everything sanctioned, at least until my players revolt or i lose interest.
In sanctioned, you level purely based on chronicle sheets (right?) If i buy the RotRL anniversary edition, will it have enough chronicle sheets for me to turn in to level my players at a pace the story needs?
I guess what i am asking is does RotRl have chronicle sheets and if so, are they sufficient 1XP doses to actually level the party at approx the same time as these 'you all level' quotes in the text.
thanks in advance, sanctioned play is kicking my butt (but seems worth it so far just from a feeling of 'someone sanity-checked these feats/traits/classes for me')
I was already bummed when i realized i cant run the three classic modules Crypt, masks, City back to back. You need to earn 2 lvls each module in order to be ready for the next, but chronicle sheets just give you 1 lvl per module. SUPER lame if you ask me. But no one did.
Is RothRL borked in the same way?
That depends on your definition of module, strangepork. If you take the entirety of an AP book to be a module, then it will have 3-4 levels. If you count each "chapter" or part to be a module, then it's usually one per, and sometimes less than that.
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Krisam: Deactivating the well is not necessary. However, you can also have Sheriff Hemlock tell the PCs how the town is walling up the area because some kid went into it and came out a raving maniac who tried to kill several people (exposure to the water). If you want it to be slightly tragic, have the kid having killed his companions... or his companions forced to have killed HIM because he attacked them.
Seeing you're leveling at set points, they don't need the XPs from it. And the pool does need to exist in some form for significantly later when the Scribbler appears.
Thanks for your suggestions, guys.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I just know that my group sounds just like yours, and it worked for me. YMMV.
I don't use XP, and as far as not doing their best, I doubt that happens.
They never know what trying to skip _____ will cause. They could miss out on information or a certain plot items that make advancing the game easier.
Thread Necromancy... again!
I just wanted to poke my head in and say this:
For me, it depends on the sort of game I'm running. Certain games feel more "authentic" with XP. Also, I'm currently running a game with several characters at different levels - using XP allows the people who are behind to catch up.
On the other hand, I love doing no XP games too. It makes things so much easier. Finish the adventure? Level up. Done and done. It helps keep up the momentum when you don't have to track XP.
Actually, I find I am more likely to go no-XP in low-magic (or low treasure) games. For me, one of the main reasons to track XP is because it also allows me to track loot. If there is little or no loot, then XP means a lot less.
I started RotRL recently, with a group of four. I told them that I won´t do XP, just use the leveling points given, and they are fine with that. It does make my job a bit easier, and I don´t have to worry if their level is too high or loo low that way.
And besides: the Step system I mentioned in my first post here in this thread is by Sean K Reynolds, found here:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/misc.html in the first entry. I used it in the last campaign, and it worked like a charm. I would recommend giving BAB and saves as one step, rather than BAB and hp.
My players are very much into the leveling experience and love to see how close they are coming to a level, personally I also like gaining exp for the same reasons. Additionally I like giving out exp rewards for excellent play and have been putting in many of my own side quests to flesh out the characters in the game.
To run on a "level up when necessary" doesn't work for me, knowing what I know of my party it wouldn't work for us either.
I'm about to start a runelords run and I am just planning on leveling by story event, rounding up or down based on how much of the optional stuff they cover. Most of the players have work schedules that make it difficult for them not to miss occasionally, and we all agreed it would be better to keep everyone on the same page.
I agree that it's nice to have something as a reward for players pulling off something awesome though, and am planning on using a modified hero point system for this. None given out at level up, the only way to get them is to do something I would award bonus XP for normally, or the whole party beating a difficult unscripted challenge, like something on the top end of the random encounter charts.
Well, having started Rise of the Runelords in beginning 3.5/Pathfinder and played slow enough that we changed into the Anniversary Edition this year, and we're still in Fortress of the Stone Giants, let me give my $0.02.
I wanted to try out XP-less because we had just finished an entirely different game that was on the Fast track and we were leveling almost every game. I'm talking Level 20 in less than a year. So fast I didn't know what half my cleric spells did. So I suggested XP-less to the tabletop to slow things down. The players agreed.
Two major complaints:
1.) When the plot train slows down until they have accomplished "X" to level, one player complained about not having the next level of spells.
2.) One player character died and was Raised with a negative level. I found it very hard to judge when he would fight/gain xp enough to match the overall level of the group. This was compounded by him not being Raised until everyone else was 2 levels higher. The player rolled up a new character at the party's level, but made it clear that the new PC would be going away when the old character made a level equal to everyone else. This PC was the leader/plot driver, so yes, we had to Raise him. I've heard of similar problems with Legacy of Fire AP and the moldspeaker.
We're staying with XP-less, and I'm trying to wean the players off of double PCs and other problems. So far, I love XP-less.
Playing a smaller one-shot Pathfinder module, I find switching from Fast xp to Medium xp to be confusing at first, and now terribly lagging. My Leadership Cohort "should" level, but not until my primary PC does it first, and he's got a way to go before earning enough XP for the next level. At this point I'm worried about not leveling before the end of the module.
I've been using this technique (levelling at arbitrary points) and it's been working well.
We play a very 'light' game and so nobody is big on optimisation, rules lawyering and just in it for a good time.
We have also found it keeps the emphasis on story and abstracts a layer of accounting from the game.
I'm not 16 anymore and don't have the time to spend calculating all the XP and treasure tables like I used to. Anything that cuts down my admin overhead is just a blessing - which is why I am running an adventure path rather than creating my own modules.
I actually love this AP and how this is working using this system.
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As both a player and Dm I prefer having XP allocated. This idea of DING oh look I have levelled doesn't seem to tell the story of how your character has thought through the challenges set infront of him. It tells the story of lets all turn up, not contribute as much as that guy across the table and we will level up all at the same time.
Whats the point in Roleplaying then if that's the case.
I am currently playing in Second Darkness and the DM uses the AP level up at this point, and to me just seems so lame.
Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. Awarding more experience to one character because the player "roleplayed" better sounds completely arbitrary and meta.
-Skeld
I'm running RotRL and not tracking experience, instead leveling up where it suggests. It's a lot of bookkeeping off me; I don't even understand some of the posts about the players not contributing or what not. Everyone is involved in the story and working together to solve the challenges. I totally recommend this route...
