Aswaarg |
I have been a GM for a long time now, but I always had some problems trying to make interesting the detection an identification of magical items.
For 2nd edition I´m trying a system with a spredsheet, giving the players descriptions of the magical/alchemical objects and tracking them so I know what they have even if they haven´t identified them.
For example, I describe a lesser healing potion as a "small potion with a redish liquid inside". Nothing fancy but that way I have it noted and they have to identify it if they want to drink it safely (yea, sometimes a red potion is not a healing potion xD).
With potions/elixirs is easy, almost always something in a jar is going to be magical/alchemical, so I can make a description of everithing and they will grab it and identify later. But with other objects, like weapons, armors or tools, if I make a special description for it, they know that this is a magical item.
You could ask, Where is the problem? I think I´m trying to give more value to spells like Read aura or Detect magic (even if this spells is not good at determining if an object is magical or not, because only says if there is something magical in the are of efect).
So I´m looking for some advice here.
Should I give descpritions for some items even if they are not magic?
Ar the runes in the weapons/armors obvious or they only shine whith a Read Aura/ Detect magic?
Should I say "You find a magical dagger, you would need to identify it to know what it does" and make things simpler?
What do you guys do?
Saldiven |
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Descriptions tend to make players think things are important, so I'd only describe important things. So give a description of the item is magical, made out of a special material, or is particularly valuable.
I agree with this. It's kind of a play on the idea of Chekhov's gun. Giving more elaborate than usual descriptions of items will make the players assume there is something important about the item. If there is not, in fact, anything important about the item, it will waste the players' time trying to make that determination, and then make characters less interested when you give elaborate descriptions in the future.
Wheldrake |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Definitely, yes.
Elaborate descriptions of loot items adds to the depth of the experience. Some of the items may be non-magical, so the only really important thing is the gold (or silver) piece value. Magic items should be special, and I think elaborate descriptions help with that.
Plus, the descriptions you make can give clues towards the provenance of items. Even gold or silver pieces might have been minted in specific countries, or specific historical periods, and that can give clues as to where this loot came from, and what it was used for.
Sure, some players won't care. They just want to get on to the next encounter, to flex their powers. But most players I know love this kind of thing, and it deepens their immersion in the game world.
Draco18s |
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Salamileg wrote:Descriptions tend to make players think things are important, so I'd only describe important things. So give a description of the item is magical, made out of a special material, or is particularly valuable.I agree with this. It's kind of a play on the idea of Chekhov's gun. Giving more elaborate than usual descriptions of items will make the players assume there is something important about the item. If there is not, in fact, anything important about the item, it will waste the players' time trying to make that determination, and then make characters less interested when you give elaborate descriptions in the future.
OTOH, if you describe a room as:
You enter the small room, a bookshelf of books stands in one corner, a small cot along the back wall, and a writing desk full of many drawers opposite. On top of the desk lays a book, inlaid with gold along the cover, untouched by the dust that covers every other surface in the room.
You're going to get this response:
Cleric: "I check out the book"Fighter: "I check out the book"
Wizard: "I check out the book using Detect Magic."
Rogue: "I check the book for traps."
Guess what, the book is the only thing of any import in the room.
How about...
You enter the small room, a bookshelf stands in one corner, books of every size and color line every shelf, sometimes even stacked two deep. The shadows in the space between the top and the ceiling has several more laying haphazardly. There is a small cot along the back wall, simple, but obviously well used by the previous occupant, who likely put it there in order to avoid a long travel back home. A writing desk sits opposite the cot, there are dozens of drawers along both sides of the comfortable looking chair tucked into it, several sit slightly ajar. On top of the desk lays a book, inlaid with gold along the cover, untouched by the dust that covers every other surface in the room.
Now what's interesting?
Saldiven |
@Draco18S:
Sure, but then do you go into detail about the design and quality of every enemy's weapons, armor, personal effects, etc.? (The OP was asking about descriptions of magical items.)
If every room description is like your second example, that's fine because you've established a standard of expectation for your players. But, I'll assert (based on my 4 decades of gaming experience) that many players will start to tune those descriptions out if they are too long. I'm sure you've experienced the same thing, where players seemingly having no knowledge of things that you just read out to them 60 seconds earlier.
Kasoh |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Should I give descpritions for some items even if they are not magic?
Ar the runes in the weapons/armors obvious or they only shine whith a Read Aura/ Detect magic?
Should I say "You find a magical dagger, you would need to identify it to know what it does" and make things simpler?
What do you guys do?
I tell people plainly and explicitly what the magical and mundane gear they pick up is. "You find Potions of Greater Healing, a Headband of Vast Intellect, and three more sets of gear those cultists you've been fighting all dungeon have been carrying."
Some people really enjoy identifying mysterious treasure. Others don't. As a player, I can't be bothered to write down a fancy loot description on my loot spreadsheet, and I'm annoyed when the GM refuses to say that the +1 sword and potion of greater healing we looted off this guy is the exact same as the potion of greater healing and +1 sword we looted off every other guy equipped exactly the same. No. Save the mystery for actually mysterious things.
As a GM, I can't be bothered. Either its an upgrade and you want the PCs to know it so they can fight harder stuff, or its vendor trash and its properties don't matter.
The downside to this, of course, is that class features that aid in the identification of magic items become less useful and we're not able to use cursed items fully, but that's more of a first edition thing anyway.
Puna'chong |
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Searching for hidden treasure and investigating objects in the room always seems more interesting than it ends up being, in my experience. It's hard to describe a room in a way that doesn't arouse suspicion or bore the players.
Identifying items is another thing that I suspect is just more trouble than it's worth, which is unfortunate because there are so many rules for item identification. I ran into this a lot in Fall of Plaguestone, where the party was constantly picking up alchemical items but couldn't succeed on crafting checks to identify them. So they had this sack of unidentified bombs they were lugging around.
So I'm with Kasoh in that regard. That aspect of looting--as cool as it is in theory--slows things down, and if the party doesn't figure out what this magical helmet is immediately they're just going to toss it in the bag until they figure out what it is. Because it's obviously cursed. Everything is cursed, always.
Elorebaen |
Definitely, yes.
Elaborate descriptions of loot items adds to the depth of the experience. Some of the items may be non-magical, so the only really important thing is the gold (or silver) piece value. Magic items should be special, and I think elaborate descriptions help with that.
Plus, the descriptions you make can give clues towards the provenance of items. Even gold or silver pieces might have been minted in specific countries, or specific historical periods, and that can give clues as to where this loot came from, and what it was used for.
Sure, some players won't care. They just want to get on to the next encounter, to flex their powers. But most players I know love this kind of thing, and it deepens their immersion in the game world.
What Wheldrake said :) Descriptions only add to the experience. Even non-magical items (can) have stories to tell. But either way, a definite plus.
Also, if you want some ideas for this, I highly suggest Raging Swan products.
jdripley |
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I too am with Kasoh. Cut to the chase and say what the loot is.
I also indicate this to my players so they don't waste choices on being better at identifying items.
Just too much book keeping otherwise... Your player is going to try to identify the thing on the spot, if they can't they'll stuff it in a bag and probably forget it for a while. Then later on they'll ask "hey, I have an unidentified sword in my bag... can I try to identify it?"
....and at that point, I've no longer ANY clue what it is.
Best case scenario there is that your supply a book and page number so that the player can say "I have an unidentified sword in my bag that I got from Fall of Plaguestone page 15, can I try to identify that?"
That works better.
But I still say it works best to just pony up the info and let them be excited about it then and there.
DomHeroEllis |
If it's the first time they've seen a consumable, I will let them roll a quick recall knowledge check to see if they know what it is.
Permanent Magic items they have to do the ten minute identity dance.
After they've identified it once, they know what it is. So all those +1 weapons they know what it is. If it is something more than that, they can do the research.
I also sometimes flavour random bits of junk, throwaway items a bit nicer just for colour, and I particularly like naming books.
Aswaarg |
Thank you everyone for the answers.
I am convinced that the really elaborate descriptions should be given only to really important items, because if everything have a long cue of descriptors, is going to be boring for my players (and too much work for me).
A lot of you suggest to handwave the magical detection/identification. That is what we did in PF1, they only nedeed to activate Detect magic when they were looting to see what was magical, and if was not a relly obscure/special object, the identification was instant.
But now in PF2 you have a lot of rules and feats for identification. And it seems easier than before. In fact now you have those 10 minutes stops every now and then, and are perfect moments to do the identification thing. So I feel compelled to give this new system a try.
Right now I don´t have a problem tracking who has wich magical object, I´m using a spredsheet and I keep all the info there(something like, "Vial with a draw of a pink eye" -- starts in B1 -- now Jos has it -- It´s a invisible potion -- It´s not identifyied).
The problem that I am having right now is not the identification part, but the detection part. Should I give my players clues in the form of descriptions when they find a magical item? Or should I say nothing in general (only on special ocasions) and let them do what ever they have to do to diferenciate the magical ones from the mundane?
Let me put an example. Let´s say in all the dungeon, there are 10 weapons as loot. 2 of them are magical +1, a third is +1 and returning. The returining one is special for the history and has this special description (even his own name), so no problem there, my players are going to know and will try to detect magic/identify the objetc. The other 2 weapons +1 are scattered around the dungeon, with other non magical loot. If I don´t give a special descriptor to this +1 weapons, I´m going to say things like "You open the chest and find a rusty chainmail, an old wood shield and a longsword in good condition", a few rooms later "Between the bodys there is a greataxe, dirty from the old blood", and like that with 7 more weapons, so there is a good chance that they will skip the magical objects thinking it is another mundane one (too much bulk to carry everything).
If I say "The Greataxe has some blue lines carved on the handled" maybe they will stop and try to determine if is a magical item and then try to identify them. But UI do that, maybe I´m making this too easy for them? What is the point of cantrips like Read aura then?
Read aura "You focus on the target object, opening your mind to perceive magical auras. When the casting is complete, you know whether that item is magical, and if it is, you learn the school of magic."
Ravingdork |
Yeah, I'm inclined to think describing items as a good thing, up to a point. Save it for especially powerful or important things. That will make the game more immersive and fun. Make the everything else asier to write into the daily notes.
On a related note, I'm hard of hearing. The more words there are, the more likely I am to miss the important words among the jumble. For long winded descriptions I often have to ask the GM to repeat portions of it, or else go home after the game and crack open my own copy of the module just so that I have an understanding of what was happening after the fact.
Kasoh |
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Let me put an example. Let´s say in all the dungeon, there are 10 weapons as loot. 2 of them are magical +1, a third is +1 and returning. The returning one is special for the history and has this special description (even his own name), so no problem there, my players are going to know and will try to detect magic/identify the object. The other 2 weapons +1 are scattered around the dungeon, with other non magical loot. If I don´t give a special descriptor to this +1 weapons, I´m going to say things like "You open the chest and find a rusty chainmail, an old wood shield and a longsword in good condition", a few rooms later "Between the bodys there is a greataxe, dirty from the old blood", and like that with 7 more weapons, so there is a good chance that they will skip the magical objects thinking it is another mundane one (too much bulk to carry everything).
You can say "In the chest is some rusty chainmail, old wood shield and a +1 longsword."
If you don't want them to miss it, Just say it. Be explicit.