I also find the "I could do this easily" talk to be silly. No you couldn't. Traps are the equivalent of landmines (unless they have no proficiency requirement meaning they are obvious enough to just be spotted) and I don't reckon any one on these forums could move across a minefield while moving from cover to cover without slowing down and finding the whole ordeal extremely tiring, or would even suggest anyone should find that easy.
I disagree. I could easily sneak and search for traps. I couldn't actually stop people from finding me easily (I'm not very sneaky), or probably find any land mines (wouldn't know what to look for, but could be looking), but I could do both at the same time.
And we aren't talking about our real selves. We are talking about our Power Fantasy Uber Mensch who may or may not be magical and able to lift 3 times their body weight over their head with one arm.
From a narrative stand point, our characters are exceptional people. Not many players purposefully play a character who is only capable of what they could do themselves. I know one guy, but that was a special case. He made a commoner with his GM's permission and didn't tell the group what class he was. Hilarity ensues.
Really the issue to me is time. Exploration doesn't have a standard "speed". It is modifiable by the GM to fit the narrative they want to tell. So saying that you couldn't do 4 things at once doesn't hold water. A Rogue could sneak to his new position, hide, then search while being hidden without having to continue to "hide". A player could have their character "Defend" while also "Scouting" to watch for enemies (I still don't like "Scout". Should just be called "Keep Watch"). After all, if he believes he is in immanent danger enough to hold his shield up, why wouldn't he be watching for enemies as well?
This really boils down to GM preference. The ball is in their court as to how they want to apply Exploration Activities. The book states that players should really just describe what their character is doing and the GM should assign them activities based on that. So if a player finds a circumstance where it makes sense that his character could be performing more than one activity at once, why not let them? Just make sure that they pay some kind of price for doing so. Like slowing them down, a circumstance or typeless penalty to one or more checks for complicated tasks, etc...
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I agree its definetly not easy to both avoid notice while trapfinding, but it also doesnt require legendary proficiency to even attempt it. Heck even of it were just a +1 to each DC to show split focus and a slower pace to represent taking your time I would find it okay; But you should be able to do at least 2 things at once.
Btw traps arent the equivalent of land mines because land mines are traps. But again, I agree that being able to avoid notice and avoid very well hidden traps would be a slow (potentially tiring) process. But you are right I, an untrained person, wouldnt be able to keep cover much less walk in a minefield: Doesnt mean I cant try.
I can think of at least 3 feats that let you look for traps while doing other activities, and 2 are available at level 1. It isn't THAT hard to do these things. You just have to devote the resources to it. That's pretty much what feats are-- ways to set yourself above what a normal person could do.
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I can think of at least 3 feats that let you look for traps while doing other activities, and 2 are available at level 1. It isn't THAT hard to do these things. You just have to devote the resources to it. That's pretty much what feats are-- ways to set yourself above what a normal person could do.I agree its definitely not easy to both avoid notice while trap finding, but it also doesn't require legendary proficiency to even attempt it. Heck even of it were just a +1 to each DC to show split focus and a slower pace to represent taking your time I would find it okay; But you should be able to do at least 2 things at once.
By the way, traps aren't the equivalent of land mines because land mines are traps. But again, I agree that being able to avoid notice and avoid very well hidden traps would be a slow (potentially tiring) process. But you are right I, an untrained person, wouldn't be able to keep cover much less walk in a minefield: Doesn't mean I cant try.
Please list them.
Please list them.I can think of at least 3 feats that let you look for traps while doing other activities, and 2 are available at level 1. It isn't THAT hard to do these things. You just have to devote the resources to it. That's pretty much what feats are-- ways to set yourself above what a normal person could do.I agree its definitely not easy to both avoid notice while trap finding, but it also doesn't require legendary proficiency to even attempt it. Heck even of it were just a +1 to each DC to show split focus and a slower pace to represent taking your time I would find it okay; But you should be able to do at least 2 things at once.
By the way, traps aren't the equivalent of land mines because land mines are traps. But again, I agree that being able to avoid notice and avoid very well hidden traps would be a slow (potentially tiring) process. But you are right I, an untrained person, wouldn't be able to keep cover much less walk in a minefield: Doesn't mean I cant try.
Trap Finder, Hazard Finder, Stonecunning. Yeah, they are class and ancestry specific, but getting adopted or multiclassing isn't hard to do. The rogue dedication is also a great choice for monks, incidentally.
So it's not like encounter mode sneaking where the moment you do something non-stealthy, you're spotted?
(Thank you, Captain Morgan.)
Searching for traps (or secret doors, or other hidden stuff) may involve doing things that are going to get you catched, I don't know, things like tapping the floor, sprinkling dust in the area, opening furnitures, using tools...
If you just need to look at the area for a while to spot the trap, you may still have to do that closely; so if you want to search an area that doesn't offer you any cover it will be quite hard to avoid the enemy's gaze.
Of course you aren't going to walk into the obvious open pit just because you are avoiding notice, but I don't think that you can combine the two activities so easily.
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Regarding the listed 9 activities vs. all the other things that have an "exploration" trait;
All of these activities are things you do in exploration made. That much is obvious from the exploration trait.
The difference between those 9 and other things, is that these are the things you're doing while moving. Treat Wounds and Identify Magic are also exploration activities, but you typically do them while stationary, before moving on to the next place. Avoid Notice and Search describe tactics you use while moving from place to place.
So while in exploration mode, you're not always doing an tactic. If combat just ended, you're probably taking 10 minutes to do some item identification, shield repair, treat wounds and refocusing. That's still exploration mode, hence the trait on those activities.
Once you're done with that and start moving to the next bit of the [forest/dungeon/city] you pick a tactic again. Note that you don't have to pick a tactic; they generally make you tired or make you move slower.
Exploration mode was basically described as "not in active combat, but danger might be near so we don't completely handwave time". You tend to measure time in minutes or hours while in exploration mode. Whereas encounter mode is in 6-second rounds and downtime is usually in days, weeks or months.
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So regarding Searching and trap and other hazards;
You only receive a free check to spot hazards that don't require proficiency to do the check. If the hazard requires "trained in perception", you already don't get a free check anymore, even though every class starts trained in perception.
Also, the majority of hazards do seem to require it. It's really only the very dumb ones - a big unconcealed pit - that don't.
So unfortunately, Search is just too bloody necessary. And it's the only tactic that gets a lot better when more people are doing it, because that's basically "roll five times, take the best result".
I'd say that you don't necessarily need the whole party searching-- just the ones with the highest perception proficiency. With some traps being gated to a certain level of perception to spot, having the people who are only trained Search might not do anything. The characters with bad perception are usually the ones with spell casting though, so that may be a good reason to detect magic.
Regarding the listed 9 activities vs. all the other things that have an "exploration" trait;
All of these activities are things you do in exploration made. That much is obvious from the exploration trait.
The difference between those 9 and other things, is that these are the things you're doing while moving. Treat Wounds and Identify Magic are also exploration activities, but you typically do them while stationary, before moving on to the next place. Avoid Notice and Search describe tactics you use while moving from place to place.
So while in exploration mode, you're not always doing an tactic. If combat just ended, you're probably taking 10 minutes to do some item identification, shield repair, treat wounds and refocusing. That's still exploration mode, hence the trait on those activities.
Once you're done with that and start moving to the next bit of the [forest/dungeon/city] you pick a tactic again. Note that you don't have to pick a tactic; they generally make you tired or make you move slower.
Exploration mode was basically described as "not in active combat, but danger might be near so we don't completely handwave time". You tend to measure time in minutes or hours while in exploration mode. Whereas encounter mode is in 6-second rounds and downtime is usually in days, weeks or months.
Yeah, I think Investigate just shouldn't have been lumped in with those others. It should be something you do when you enter a room or find something interesting. Having Investigate be something you do while the medic Treats Wounds and the fighter repairs their shield makes more sense.
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@Captain Morgan:
To get a sense of whether there's any point in poorly proficient characters searching, I scanned the CRB traps. Most of these are traps, but there are some other hazards in there too.
CRB Simple Hazards
===
Untrained 0 - Hidden Pit
Trained 1 - Poisoned Lock
Trained 1 - lamming Door
Trained 2 - Spear Launcher
Trained 3 - Electric Latch Rune
Trained 4 - Scythe Blades
Expert 5 - Fireball Rune
Expert 6 - Hallucination Powder Trap
Expert 7 - Pharaoh's Ward
Trained 8 - Yellow Mold
Untrained 9 - Bottomless Pit
Trained 10 - Bloodthirsty Urge
Expert 11 - Hammer of Forbiddance
Trained 12 - Polymorph Trap
Trained 13 - Planar Rift
Master 17 - Frozen Moment
Expert 19 - Vorpal Executioner
Legendary 21 - Second Chance
Untrained 23 - Armageddon OrbCRB Complex Hazards
===
Trained 1 - Summoning Rune
Trained/Expert 3 - Drowning Pit
Trained 3 - Quicksand
Trained/Expert 4 - Spinning Blade Pillar
Expert/Untrained 6 - Wheel of Misery
Expert/Master 8 - Poisoned Dart Gallery
Trained 10 - Lava Flume Tube
Expert 12 - Telekinetic Swarm Trap
Master 14 - Darkside Mirror
Legendary 18 - Banshee's Symphony
What's interesting here is:
* Untrained-detection hazards are the exception. So the rule about "everyone can see them without searching" isn't getting you far.* At low level Trained will usually suffice and needing more than Expert is rare. Since at level 3 anyone can grab Canny Acumen is available as a general feat to boost Perception to Expert, anyone can be a trapfinder most of the time. And there are quite a few classes that start with Expert and quickly reach higher grades.
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And yeah, I agree Investigate is misplaced with the "tactics" and should just be listed next to Recall Knowledge at the start of the skills chapter.
Although I could see a case for a "survey" activity related to cartographing areas you travel through in a hexploration campaign. But that hexploration needs more sophisticated exploration mode rules can hardly be a surprise :P
About Investigate I use a Houserule that anyone Investigating can use a free action to Recall Knowledge about a monster if combat happens
You only receive a free check to spot hazards that don't require proficiency to do the check. If the hazard requires "trained in perception", you already don't get a free check anymore, even though every class starts trained in perception.
Source please.
You only receive a free check to spot hazards that don't require proficiency to do the check. If the hazard requires "trained in perception", you already don't get a free check anymore, even though every class starts trained in perception.Source please.
"If the hazard doesn’t list a minimum proficiency rank, roll a secret Perception check against the hazard’s Stealth DC for each PC. For hazards with a minimum proficiency rank, roll only if someone is actively searching (using the Search activity while exploring or the Seek action in an encounter), and only if they have the listed proficiency rank or higher" Core Rulebook pg. 520