Oracle dip for Bloodrager (Iron Gods spoilers)


Advice


IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE IRON GODS ADVENTURE PATH, BE WARNED I'M AT THE END OF BOOK TWO AND THERE WILL BE SPOILERS AHEAD.

For everyone still here, please try not to spoil anything else for me.

TLDR: What archetype/mystery/spells would you recommend for a one-level dip into Oracle? It represents Hellion possessing my Bloodrager (Posessed curse).

My character: (Just leveled to level 7)

Spoiler:
I'm playing a Half-Orc Aberrant Bloodrager called Remus. We just hit level 7, my feats are Raging Vitality, Power Attack, Toughness and Chainsaw Proficiency (and Iron Will from my bloodline). I have the Sacred Tattoo alternate racial trait, and Fate's Favoured and Toothy as background traits.

I'm a Primalist, but I haven't taken any rage powers yet (I have long limbs). I intend to take Strength Surge and Quick Reflexes at level 8, then Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl at pevel 12, then Come And Get Me and (something) at level 16.

My future feats are planned as: Furious Focus, Dreadful Carnage (to help with Terrifying Howl), Raging brutality, Dazing Assault and probably Improved Critival: Chainsaw (plus bloodline feats: Improved Initive, Combat Reflexes, Improved unarmed Strike).

We have an Android Techlinger (damage dealer), a Halfling Bard (pure supoort but hoping to add some damage) and will have a wizard joining us (his front-line Archaeologist died last session). My Bloodrager is a damage dealer with some battlefield controll, and I plan to add some debuffing (dreadful carnage, Terrifying Howl, Cruel weapon, Dazing assault).

So the story is that at the end of last session we fought Hellion. We won, but two of our characters died in Hellion's final explosion: my Bloodrager and the front-line Archaeologist Bard. Luckily we have a scroll of Resurrection left over from book 1, and I get to be the lucky one brought back.

I thought it might he fun for Remus to take a level in Oracle to represent the mental scarring that occurred due to dying (he's already a little unstable). (Initially this was total metagaming when I realised that the game apparently finishes at level 17. The only worthwhile thing I get at level 17 is Tireless Rage, but with the Lame curse I can get fatigue immunity at level 9 for only a 1 level dip.)

But then I found the Possessed Curse. Mechanically it's not bad (roll twice on some saves I don't want to fail), but thematically it's amazing. I could have the "soul" of Hellion inside my head.

So I think I'm going to talk to the GM about taking the possessed curse and having Hellion's soul residing in my body. Hellion was using "divine" magic (it said it was divine) so it fits really well. The problem is I'm not that familiar with the Oracle, and I've only really fought Hellion once. What Archetype/Mystery/spells would suit Hellion (bearing in mind this will only be a single level dip)?

Grand Lodge

The obvious choice with any oracle dip is dual cursed. Misfortune is too good and you can combo curses for fun story and mechanical benefits.

Battle has some mysteries that are useful off the jump and won't fall behind with levelling.

If you don't want a revelation you can get martial flexibility with the warsighted archetype.

Battle or metal can get you heavy armour if that helps.

Intrigue has some useful social stuff.

Might of the Godclaw (Su): You gain Deific Obedience but you can make some modificaitons to what you take. It can give a bunch of small benefits over many levels.

Other notes your mystery gives class skills to facto that in.

Silver Crusade

I suggest you pick a Mystery/Revelation that does not depend on level.

My top pick would be Dual Cursed archetype, Nature/Lunar/Lore mystery, Misfortune revelation. The reasons are three:

1) Misfortune is great. Enemy rolls a crit? Reroll. Ally fails a big save? Reroll.
2) Dual Cursed allows you to pick both the curses you were interested in: Lame as your main one, to become immune to fatigue, and Possessed as secondary for the flavour.
3) With a feat (Extra Revelation) you can get Charisma to AC and Reflexes/CMD (depending on the Mystery) instead of Dexterity. I assume, as a Bloodrager, your Cha is better than your Dex. This Revelation allows you to improve your Bloodrager, social and defensive abilities at once by focusing only on Cha and pretty much forgetting about Dex.

As per the spells, Divine Favour is an obvious one, since you have the Fate's Favored trait, but also Moment of Greatness to double your rage bonuses for one attack when you need it, and Stone Shield for a boost to defenses. Cure (or Inflict) Moderate Wounds is automatically added to your spell list. Immunity to fatigue allows you to drop the rage and cast if you are in need, with no negative consequences.

Also, if you have feats to spare, may I suggest you the Aberrant Tumor feat? Pick the familiar you want (some give +4 Initiative, or +1 Natural armor), and make it Protector to make your character pretty much unstoppable.


Man, Dual-Cursed does seem strong. Lame plus Possessed gives me all the things, and Misfortune IS amazing! It seems like if I go Dual-Cursed my Mystery basically doesn't matter unless I want to take Extra Revelation, am inright about that?

Re: CHA to AC, I doubt it'll make enough difference to be worth it. I currently have 10 DEX and 13 CHA. I'm not really planning on pumping CHA past 14 (so I can cast 4th level spells), and I'm hoping to get at least 12 DEX for Combat Reflexes, so it's only really +1AC. Good thought generally though.

I looked at Godclaw, but it seemed to be referencing things I'm not familiar with. The game is tonight (approx 12 hours from now), and I'm about to go to work, so I don't know if I have time to work out what the Godclaw gods are etc. Seems like it'd be a strong option generally though.

Lastly, I didn't make this super clear but I was kind-of asking which mysteries/etc you'd associate with Hellion as an NPC? It's probably going to be hard for me to go past Dual-cursed now, but if there's something that jumps out from a flavour standpoint I'd love to hear about it.

Silver Crusade

MrCharisma wrote:

Man, Dual-Cursed does seem strong. Lame plus Possessed gives me all the things, and Misfortune IS amazing! It seems like if I go Dual-Cursed my Mystery basically doesn't matter unless I want to take Extra Revelation, am inright about that?

Re: CHA to AC, I doubt it'll make enough difference to be worth it. I currently have 10 DEX and 13 CHA. I'm not really planning on pumping CHA past 14 (so I can cast 4th level spells), and I'm hoping to get at least 12 DEX for Combat Reflexes, so it's only really +1AC. Good thought generally though.

I looked at Godclaw, but it seemed to be referencing things I'm not familiar with. The game is tonight (approx 12 hours from now), and I'm about to go to work, so I don't know if I have time to work out what the Godclaw gods are etc. Seems like it'd be a strong option generally though.

Lastly, I didn't make this super clear but I was kind-of asking which mysteries/etc you'd associate with Hellion as an NPC? It's probably going to be hard for me to go past Dual-cursed now, but if there's something that jumps out from a flavour standpoint I'd love to hear about it.

Yes, if you go Dual Cursed + Misfortune, the actual Mystery is kinda irrelevant unless (and I might say until) you pick Extra Revelation. I have not played the AP, so I cannot answer your question, but this is my suggestion: go Dual Cursed/Misfortune and pick the Mystery that thematically most resonates with this NPC, do not think about revelations at the moment, if you never end up picking Extra Revelation, this will never matter anyway.

If you do however, and you do not like the options the Mystery you chose gives you, just ask your GM to pick another Mystery that still fits the NPC's concept. I am 99% sure the GM will have no problem with it, as the Mystery will have had literally zero mechanical effect on the game until then, apart from simply being a name on your character's sheet, since the RP would have come from the theme of the NPC, not the actual Mystery: the Mystery changes, but the theme is the same.

Grand Lodge

Mysteries give class skills but dual curse gives that up. That would be the other reason to pick one. Dual cursed will allow you to also take fortune which is less good but has it's place.

Battle gives you options like Surprising Charge, War Sight, and Battlefield Clarity which are all pretty good at level 1 via extra revelation.


People are confusing Possessed (the oracle archetype) and Haunted (the oracle curse), methinks.
They are different things. =)

The possessed oracle has to pick the Two Minds revelation at first level.
So if you want anything else, you'd have to get it via extra revelation.
They are also required to take the Haunted curse... so if you want Lame as well (for fatigue immunity) then you pretty much have to take the Duel Cursed Archetype as well. Not sure if they stack.

Grand Lodge

Possessed curse.

From: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Horror Realms

Silver Crusade

EvilMinion wrote:

People are confusing Possessed (the oracle archetype) and Haunted (the oracle curse), methinks.

They are different things. =)

The possessed oracle has to pick the Two Minds revelation at first level.
So if you want anything else, you'd have to get it via extra revelation.
They are also required to take the Haunted curse... so if you want Lame as well (for fatigue immunity) then you pretty much have to take the Duel Cursed Archetype as well. Not sure if they stack.

No, people are not confusing anything.

Possessed (Horror Realms pg. 15) wrote:
Another mind shares your body, interfering with your control, and it’s more difficult for you to concentrate as a result. You take a –2 penalty on all concentration checks, and concentrating to maintain a spell duration provokes attacks of opportunity. Whenever a foe attempts to use an effect to possess or dominate you and the effect allows a saving throw to negate, you may roll twice and take the better of the two results. At 5th level, if you become dazed or stunned, you can choose instead to become confused for twice the duration the daze or stun effect would have normally lasted. At 10th level, add possessionOA to your list of 5th-level oracle spells known. At 15th level, add greater object possessionOA to your list of 7th-level oracle spells known.


EvilMinion wrote:

People are confusing Possessed (the oracle archetype) and Haunted (the oracle curse), methinks.

They are different things. =)

I was referring to the curse that the others have now linked and quoted, but I didn't know there was an archetype and a curse if the same name, so thanks for sharing =)

Thematically that archetype fits pretty perfectly, but I think the curse is mechanically better and has the same thematic benefit.


Since I warned about spoilers in the thread title, here' some info about Hellion.

Spoiler:
Hellion is an ancient machine who thinks it is a god. There is a cult following it who have taken "control" of Scrapwall (Scrapwall is a town run by the gangs, and the "Lords of Rust" who follow Hellion are now the most powerful gang).

Hellion displays magical ability, seemingly divine power (I *think* Hellion has Cleric levels), and can cast spells through display screens - which it uses to communicate.

Our GM also gave us a little knowledge - Hellion has a USB (can't remember what it's called, but it's like a magic USB) installed which changes it's personality, increasing it's ego (hence it thinks it's a god).

Hellion also seems to be trying to gather enough resourcrs to raise it's "sister" (another machine, much bigger I think) from beneath a major city.

For anyone who's played:

Spoiler:
Horizon: Zero Dawn

on PS4 this seems almost exactly like the same plot so far (which is fun, not deriding anyone).

So it's ~8 hours till game time (and i just finished morning tea at the work, so if I keep talking here tell me to get back to work).

At this point I'm probably going Dual-Cursed Oracle with the Posessed curse (just level one) and Lame curse (which will eventually get the level 5 curse).

I'll likely take the Metal mystery for flavour (but with no mechanical relevance).

I'm thinking Divine Favor and Moment of Greatness are excellent spells, thanks for that.

For something I hadn't planned at all until today I'm really excited about this change in character!

Thanks all ^_^

Silver Crusade

How did it go? :P


Sadly the GM had a family emergency so we didn't get to play, I'll leep you posted though (we play every 2 weeks, so it'll be a little while).


So it's occured to me that since I've lost 1 BAB due to this dip I'll have to delay Dreadful Carnage (we don't usually use retraining, so no shenanigans there).

This potentially opens up the possibility that I will take Extra Revelation, which means my Mystery might have a mechanical effect after all. Are there any revelations that people would think are amazing?

Silver Crusade

MrCharisma wrote:

So it's occured to me that since I've lost 1 BAB due to this dip I'll have to delay Dreadful Carnage (we don't usually use retraining, so no shenanigans there).

This potentially opens up the possibility that I will take Extra Revelation, which means my Mystery might have a mechanical effect after all. Are there any revelations that people would think are amazing?

Since you expressed your interest towards the Metal Mystery, I would probably go with Skill at Arms to get heavy armor proficiency. Another otionn from the same Mystery is Steel Scarf, since it allows you to make melee attacks at 30ft as a swift action a few times per day. I would use it mainly to make combat maneuvers at range, without therefore incurring in AoO.

Again, for a non-Mystery related feat, I suggest Aberrant Tumor with a Protector Familiar.

Grand Lodge

For a familiar, if you can, I would suggest a bloodline familiar and save the feat. Most first-level bloodline powers are much weaker than a familiar (that is if the gm will let you). I would not use a revelation to get heavy armour as you can just use a feat for that and you already have martial weapon proficiency, so effectively you are just adding more words to your character sheet.

I would suggest War Sight to roll twice on the initiative as it is slightly better than a feat.

Silver Crusade

Grandlounge wrote:

For a familiar, if you can, I would suggest a bloodline familiar and save the feat. Most first-level bloodline powers are much weaker than a familiar (that is if the gm will let you). I would not use a revelation to get heavy armour as you can just use a feat for that and you already have martial weapon proficiency, so effectively you are just adding more words to your character sheet.

I would suggest War Sight to roll twice on the initiative as it is slightly better than a feat.

Tumor familiars heal automatically when merged with their masters, which is great on a Protector. Bloodline familiars need to be picked at 1st level; the OP said that there is no retraining in his game, so it is too late for this option.

I agree, Skill at Arms is wasted on a feat (I forgot we were talking about Extra Revelation, and not just a normal Revelation slot), so I revert to Steel Scarf.

Since I don't know the NPC, I do not want to steer the OP's Mystery choice, as I guess if he chose Metal it means it is the best Mystery that represents the NPC. Unfortunately it does not have many 1st level Revelations worth taking, although Steel Scarf can give you significant tactical advantage a few times per day if used wisely.

Grand Lodge

Gray Warden wrote:

.

Tumor familiars heal automatically when merged with their masters, which is great on a Protector. Bloodline familiars need to be picked at 1st level; the OP said that there is no retraining in his game, so it is too late for this option.

Tumour familiars can't be protectors. My way is the only way to get a protector without multi-classing or iron will route and is worth bringing up because it seems the OP may not have known the option.

Gray Warden wrote:


Since I don't know the NPC, I do not want to steer the OP's Mystery choice, as I guess if he chose Metal it means it is the best Mystery that represents the NPC. Unfortunately it does not have many 1st level Revelations worth taking, although Steel Scarf can give you significant tactical advantage a few times per day if used wisely.

I don't know if not getting to take a revelation changes the decision of metal. Battle has one of the better options and seems reasonably thematic with a bloodrager. I'm not suggesting whimsy ;).

Silver Crusade

Grandlounge wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:

.

Tumor familiars heal automatically when merged with their masters, which is great on a Protector. Bloodline familiars need to be picked at 1st level; the OP said that there is no retraining in his game, so it is too late for this option.

Tumour familiars can't be protectors.

True, I forgot about the later errata.

Silver Crusade

By the way, I have run a quick simulation, and with only +1 Initiative War Sight is actually worse than Improved Initiative.

I have rolled 10000000 d20s twice and picked the maximum for each roll, adding +1 from Dex. The average initiative result is 14.82 +- 4.71.

If you instead roll the same number of d20s once, but add +5 from Dex and Improved Initiative, you get an average initiative result of 15.50 +- 5.76.

True, dispersion is slightly lower in the first case, but on average Improved Initiative will still be better than War Sight. So I suggest you look for a better Revelation.


Gray Warden wrote:

By the way, I have run a quick simulation, and with only +1 Initiative War Sight is actually worse than Improved Initiative.

I have rolled 10000000 d20s twice and picked the maximum for each roll, adding +1 from Dex. The average initiative result is 14.82 +- 4.71.

If you instead roll the same number of d20s once, but add +5 from Dex and Improved Initiative, you get an average initiative result of 15.50 +- 5.76.

True, dispersion is slightly lower in the first case, but on average Improved Initiative will still be better than War Sight. So I suggest you look for a better Revelation.

You should only need to roll 400 times to get the averages (or simulate rolls).

Rolling two dice and discarding the lower has the benefit of greatly reducing low rolls, and I tend to think that's a slight advantage over strict average comparisons (I'd rather roll 3d6 damage than 1d20 damage, even though the average is the same).

For this character it doesn't matter so much since I'm getting Improved Initiative as a bonus feat from my Bloodrager bloodline (so I could have both).

I don't think I'd get a familiar on this character, it doesn't quite fit. Maybe a tumor familiar to represent the posession growing (I do have Iron Will), I'll have to look into it (thank you though, I haven't really looked at those rules). I can't replace my first level bloodline ability, so I couldnt't do it that way.

I agree Metal isn't a great mystery for this character, it's thematic but doesn't give much that I don't already have. Even Steel Scarf isn't as strong since I'll spend a lot of time enlarged and with Aberrant Reach (15 foot reach).

I'm open to changing mystery, but Extra Revelation (or any other feat) is likely competing with Improved Critical (~6d6+24 damage, 18-20 crit range and 2 AoO's per round by level 9). That said Improved Critical is probably overkill, so something fun or something that has more defensive/utility applications are probaboy more appealing.

I've spoken to the GM and he thought being posessed by Hellion didn't quite fit. He loves the idea generally though and has another entity in mind, I just might have to wait a little to get word on which mysteries would be appropriate.

I do appreciate you guys helping me with these ideas =) it's definitely educational.


I had a thought: Do I automatically have the revelation spells on my class list by dipping 1 level of Oracle? Or do I actually have to wait till the level I get them to count them on my list?

Let's say I take the Metal mystery: I know I don't learn Lead Blades till Oracle-2, but what if I want to use a wand of Lead Blades at Oracle-1? Do I have to UMD it or can I use the wand at will? (This would be the same for Sorcerer/Bloodrager bloodline spells, Cleric domain spells, etc.)

Silver Crusade

MrCharisma wrote:

I had a thought: Do I automatically have the revelation spells on my class list by dipping 1 level of Oracle? Or do I actually have to wait till the level I get them to count them on my list?

Let's say I take the Metal mystery: I know I don't learn Lead Blades till Oracle-2, but what if I want to use a wand of Lead Blades at Oracle-1? Do I have to UMD it or can I use the wand at will? (This would be the same for Sorcerer/Bloodrager bloodline spells, Cleric domain spells, etc.)

No, they will be added to your spell list the moment they get also added to your spells known.

FAQ wrote:

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

From the FAQ we can deduce that adding a spell to the list of spells known (via class features) does indeed also add the spell to your spell list.

However, the Mystery spells are known only at those specific levels, which is also when they will be added to your spell list.

The only free spells you get at 1st level as an Oracle are Cure/Inflict spells, and those given by your curse, if any.


Ok thanks.

I was thinking if I did get them then my Mystery would actually be relevant, but oh well.

Also that's a good rule to know anyway.


I thought I'd put everything together so people can see the plan (and so I can see it)

Remus:
Half-Orc (Alternate racial trait - Sacred Tattoo)
Background traits: Against the League, Fate's Favored, Toothy.
Classes: Bloodrager (Primalist, Aberrant bloodline), Oracle (Dual-Cursed, Lame curse primary, Posessed curse secondary)
Favoured Class: Bloodrager (HP at level 1, extra rage every other level)
(15 point buy, instead of usual stat bumps every 4 levels we get 1 "point" to add to our point buy every level)
Stats at L-1: S-16, D-10, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-3: S-16, D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-8: S-18, D-12, C-15, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-11: S-18, D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-13
Stats at L-13: S-18, D-12, C-16, I-10, W-10, C-14
Stats at L-16: S-18, D-14, C-16, W-10, I-10, C-14

Current longterm status effects:
1 negative level (died, brought back by Resurrection scroll) - permanent until removed by magical means.
-2 DEX, +2 Natural Armour (random effect from drinking "Numerian Fluids") - ~45 days remaining (Not sure if this persists after death. I told the GM I don't mind either way).

Progression: (bold is where I'm up to now)
1. B-1, Raging Vitality, Staggering Strike, Bloodrge, Fast Movement
2. B-2, Uncanny Dodge
3. B-3, Power Attack, Blood Sanctuary, +2 DEX (12)
4. B-4, Aberrant Reach, Spells, Eschew Materials
5. B-5, Toughness, Improved Uncanny Dodge
6. B-6, Iron Will (bloodline feat), BAB+6 (iterative attack)
7. O-1, Chainsaw proficiency, Lame (curse), Posessed (curse), Misfortune (revelation)

8. B-7, DR:1/-, 2nd level spells, Enlarge Person (bloodline spell), +2 STR (18)
9. B-8, (FEAT), Aberrant Fortitude Strength Surge, Quick Reflexes, Lame curse upgrade (Immune to fatigue)
10. B-9, Improved Initiative (bloodline feat)
11. B-10, Furious Focus, DR:2/-, 3rd level spells, See Invisibility (bloodline spell), +1 CON (16)
12. B-11, Greater Bloodrage, BAB+11 (3rd iterative attack)
13. B-12, Dreadful Carnage, Unusual Anatomy Intimidating Glare, Terrifying Howl,, Combat Reflexes (bloodline feat)
14. B-13, DR:3/-, 4th level spells, Displacement (bloodline spell)
15. B-14, Raging Brutality, Indomitable Will
16. B-15, Improved Unarmed Strike (bloodline feat), +2 DEX (14)
17. B-16, Dazing Assault, Aberrant Resistance Come And Get Me, (another Rage Power), DR:4/-, Black Tentacles (bloodline spell), BAB+16 (4th iterative attack).

Gear:
+1 Greatclub (for selling)
+1 Chainsaw (with Gravity Clip)
+1 Breastplate
+1 Cloak of Resistance
+1 Ring of Protection
Swarmbane Clasp
Large Shield

Wishlist:
Upgrade existing gear (obviously)
- Furious Cruel Chainsaw (then just +1's ... maaybe Keen if I don't get Improved Critical)
- Deathless, maybe Fortification Armour (then +1's)
Strength Belt +6 (eventually)
Thoracic Nanite Chamber +2 (CON belt but implanted)
Ring of Ancestral Blood Magic
Boots of the Cat
Cybernetic Eyes/ears? (White, maybe Green Veemod)
Lesser Extend Rod (metamagic)

Spells:
Currently have Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Feather Fall and Burning Hands (terrible, will swap).
Oracle will give me Divine Favour and maybe Ant Haul (enlarged at later levels I can carry a few tons, more for flavour than anything else).

Other Party members:
Kalatek: Android Gunslinger (Techslinger)-6/Cleric (Iron Priest)-X. Ranged damage dealer, multiclassed to cleric this level for more utiluty.
Nemia: Halfling Bard (Geisha). No combat prowess yet, but very heavy on buffing and a million skills. Picked up Firearm Proficiency and some more offensive spells this level to be more offensive in combat.
Amerus: Human Investigator (Archaeologist). Front-line damage dealer and out-of-combat utility. - Deceased.
Un-named Wizard: Ratfolk (I think?) Wizard (teleportation subschool, don't know archetype). Buff/debuff/battlefield-controll. Hasn't made an appearance yet.

So I'll be the only front-liner, but there should be a million buffs/debuffs/walls/etc flying around and the Techslinger deals a lot of damage. My main job will be to get in the way of enemies and to not die. My damage will end up at something like 6d6+40 for an AoO (3-4 AoO's/round), so that's a pretty big incentive for enemies to avoid provoking.

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