Another combat maneuver question (grab / trip)

[applecat144]

In my current play I have an unchained monk that also happens to be a gargoyle, so with a fly speed.

In our last play they encountered a patrol of horsemen and he did want to fly charge their captain to make him fall of his horse and have him grabbed.

The action makes total sense however I was caught off guard as I have no idea about how it would translate into game rules. On the move I told him that he couldn't grab and make him fall prone as both action requires standard action so he would grab the knocked prone foe on next turn.

However the action of flying towards him, grabing him on the way while using the momentum to precipitate him on the ground made sense as one action so if there's no existing rule about that I'd be tempted to make an homebrew feat. I require assistance ^-^

EDIT : not posting into homebrew because maybe this can be covered by existing rules.

[zza ni]

so what you'r trying to do, rules wise sounds like a flying charge ending in a bull-rush. as your not grappling him more tackling him and pushing him over a 'dangerous area'. (which unlike in grapple doesn't impose a penalty. i didn't know that..thought it did).

from the combat section>bull rush :

"Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge...If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet(horse drop).. You can move with the target(tackle) if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.."

[applecat144]

Yes bull rush would have been more suited to the situation than trip.

Shame that greater bull rush doesn't let him AoO to grab in the process :/

[RAWmonger]

The only really effective way to do this is if your player had greater trip and you had a home brew rule that you could grapple as an attack of opportunity. Flying Charge, trip at the end of the charge, target provokes, make grapple check as an AoO. Normally you can’t grapple as an AoO, but your game your rules my guy

[Ryze Kuja]

I dunno, I don't think this should be a Bull Rush. Although it makes sense that it *should* apply, you're not actually trying to physically shove the guy into another square per se, you're actually trying to dismount him with a grapple attack that would cause your unarmed attack damage(tackle).

I think the more applicable rule should be that the guy on horseback needs to make a Ride Check to "Stay in Saddle", and if he fails, he would need to make another Ride Check to see if he can do a "Soft Fall" to avoid taking 1d6 falling damage. I know it makes sense that a Bull Rush *should* apply, but technically if you Flying Charge into a Bull Rush, you'd technically be trying to physically shove the horse into another square, not the rider off the horse.

So I'd say you're trying to do a "Flying Charge" into a "Grapple to Damage" (or colloquially-speaking: a full-speed Tackle) action to Dismount the Rider, and he needs to make a Ride Check to "Stay in Saddle". But, since "Flying Charge" to a "Grapple to Damage" to "Dismount a Rider" isn't covered in the rules at all, as the DM, I'd probably provide a significant Circumstance bonus to this action (or significantly increase the rider's Ride Check DC, either one) because you're doing a Flying Charge to do it (and not trying to do it from the ground, as per any normal attempt to Dismount a Rider).

Grapple wrote:

Grapple

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move

You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage

You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Perform Special Action While Riding a Mount wrote:

Perform Special Action While Riding a Mount

Typical riding actions don’t require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks.

Guide with Knees: You can guide your mount with your knees so you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount. This does not take an action.

Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.

Soft Fall: You negate damage when you fall off a mount. If you fail the Ride check, you take 1d6 points of damage and are prone. This usage does not take an action.

[RAWmonger]

@Ryze Kuja The option to damage the target of your grapple only occurs on your next round after the check to maintain the grapple, not on the initial grapple check.

The way I would rule it is as a grapple check that is performed on a non-adjacent enemy (even though he will technically be adjacent to you). The reasoning for this is that it provides precedence for moving a target after a successful initial grapple check. Per the grapple rules "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."

I would rule that on a successful grapple check, you move him into the square adjacent to you in the direction of your momentum, and rather than you getting the option to make a check to trip him, he makes a ride check to Soft Fall. So if you are successful, you have successfully dismounted him (and have him and yourself in the grappled condition), and he gets a chance to negate falling prone or taking 1d6 (negligible) damage.

[RAWmonger]

Also if I were you I would introduce your group to the feat “Branch Pounce” and use it’s structure for flying charges as well (as long as the flying charge is mostly vertical in nature it applies well enough).

Personally I don’t think it should even be a feat, it should just be exactly how dropping attacks are done, except that it grants you reduced fall damage.

[Ryze Kuja]

Yes, you are correct. I forgot about that because I don't enforce it. I was a wrestler for many years and I can assure you that an experienced grappler can grapple + move target, grapple + damage, and grapple + pin within 4 seconds (the time of a Standard Action). Even vs. other experienced grapplers.

[RAWmonger]

Agree, the combat maneuver rules are trash and I heavily recommend houseruling most of them. Disarm and trip aren’t horrible.

If they made grappling as strong as it is in real life, it’s all anyone would do. Fighters have only relied on it for all of history to modern day

[Ryze Kuja]

Well, if you think about it, imagine yourself being tackled off a horse by a flying gargoyle monk (a flying Bruce Lee) and tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't be in a full body cast when he's done :P if you even survive it :P

I think lethal damage can and should apply :P

I got 2 coppers that says you'd have 3 cracked ribs, a broken clavicle, a punctured lung, and a shattered tailbone, and a 27.36% chance of a broken spine.