Spell Sunder vs Invisibility


Rules Questions


Spell Sunder wrote:
Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.

The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible [(Special Ability)], although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

If a barbarian is using spell sunder on a creature that is invisible via the spell, but unable to see them, does the miss chance from total concealment due to invisibility apply?


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That is a very interesting conundrum you've found there... I think the only way that this could play out, is that the Barbarian still must successfully pinpoint the invisible enemies location first, then if the enemy is still occupying that space when they target it for their spell sunder, the spell sunder ignores the 50% miss chance. But if the invisible enemy is not in the space the barbarian attacks into for their spell sunder, then the spell sunder is wasted. Of course they can also just blindly spell sunder into a space without confirming that something is actually there first too...

Basically it would function as any other attack or combat maneuver against an invisible target, except that it ignores the miss chance. They must still first know where the target is or attack blindly into a space and hope for the best.


^---- Yep.

This is an "I attack the darkness!" spell, wherein if darkness exists, the darkness is hit, but if no darkness exists, then the darkness is not hit.

Obviously the Barbarian would need to figure out where the invisible creature is in order to attack it, but if the Barbarian does indeed select the correct square, and there's a spell on a creature in the square that the Barbarian targets with Spell Sunder, then the spell is sundered regardless of the miss chance normally afforded by the spell in question. Works the same with Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement, etc. An argument can be made that it would even affect Ethereal Jaunt.


This is a difficult call. On the one hand spell sunder specifically states it ignores the miss chance caused by a spell or spell like ability. On the other hand it could be argued that invisibility does not directly cause a miss chance, it simply gives the character total cover which is what is actually causing the miss chance. So the real question becomes does spell sunder ignore indirect benefits of spells.

Personally I would probably go with the second option.

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