Hello everyone,
I have a strange question: Do you trip PCs?
The thing is, there are tons of classes with extremely low Reflex saves (Champions, Giant Barbarians, Warpriests) that would be easily tripped. Considering how tripping is nasty (Flat-Footed, AoO if you get up, loss of action, loss of mobility), this strategy would be extremely powerful. And you just need to have an Athletics score to do it, which half of the monsters have (and quite high for most of them).
I'm puzzled on this question. On one hand, I think that any coordinated intelligent creature should use such a strategy. After all, that's what PCs do most of the time, giving conditions to the enemies before obliterating them. On the other hand, it may be a bit too nasty for players...
So, do you trip (or plan on tripping) PCs?
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Using trip, shove, grapple or disarm against the players are great ways to make your monsters slightly less lethal and to show players that there are other ways to fight than simply to inflict hit points as quickly as possible.
In conjunction with this, use threats and intimidation in an attempt to resolve combat without fighting to the death. Use notions of morale and the real intellidence that these creatures would bring to bear in their conflict strategies.
All too often, I see APs and adventures that say "X will fight to the death" even though the reason for that seems weak or counterintuitive. Having adversaries use a broad range of combat options may help encourage players to try the same.
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I trip, and intimidate as well, but do so selectively. If the monster is intelligent and capable of fighting strategically, then tripping would be a valid tactic. If the monster is a meathead brawler, I don't use trips, though I may have a BIG brute try to intimidate. I try not to overuse it, because it CAN be a very powerful ability, and can swing a fight against the PCs. On the other hand, it can also prevent fights from becoming stale and repetitive.
If they have AoOs, they should probably trip.
If their buddies have AoOs, they should definitely try.
(This is with the mindset that nearly all monsters w/ AoOs have a military/Fighter aspect.)
Also, creatures w/ trip weapons likely have them just for that reason.
A martial leader should try to intimidate for the sake of their minions (once everyone's positioned to Strike within a round, that is). This could be tactical yet it seems a savage leader would be just as prone to do so (rather than attempt a 3rd attack).
Most creatures, even semi-intelligent ones, will have some clever trick or tactic they do, even if it's not all that clever, simply effective. I presuppose that creatures know how to use their abilities well, having had their lifetimes to figure out the basics and develop said ability.
Hopefully PCs can throw a wrench in the works that dumber monsters can't adjust for, which is one reason I like wall-spells (and understand why they kinda needed to become 3-action spells).
A dumb monster might even trip or intimidate when it's a poor tactic, i.e. too early or late for allies to take advantage of it, simply because "It worked before".
Considering how tripping is nasty (Flat-Footed, AoO if you get up, loss of action, loss of mobility)
As most things don't have AoO, its only slightly worse than being flanked (also flat-footed) because of having to spend an action to stand up.
Considering how tripping is nasty (Flat-Footed, AoO if you get up, loss of action, loss of mobility)As most things don't have AoO, its only slightly worse than being flanked (also flat-footed) because of having to spend an action to stand up.
No, it's far worse than flanked.
For Tripping:
First enemy gets to you, trips you, you are flat-footed.
All other enemies come, attack you, you are flat-footed.
Ranged enemies attack, you are flat-footed.
Casters attack, you are flat-footed.
For flanking:
First enemy comes, you are not flat-footed.
Second enemy comes, flanks, you are flat-footed.
Third enemy comes, you are not flat-footed. etc...
Ranged enemies attack, you are not flat-footed.
Casters attack, you are not flat-footed.
Also, losing an action to get back from prone means that all your action sequence is messed up. Third actions like raising your shield are no more possible, or you give up on your second attack and lose a third of your damage output. Or you take the -2 to all your attacks and lose 25% damage output.
You also get -2 to all your reactions attack, so tripping a Champion or a Fighter can be pretty annoying.
If the enemies are able to focus fire, tripping is deadly.
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If tripping/shoving/grappling fits the enemy and the situation, of course I'll have them try to do it to players.
I'm not actually sure how this is even a question?
Yes of course I use them.
It's a cost of being a heavy plate wearing Champion and a benefit to more dexterous classes and builds.
I don't spam trip but it's a valid tactic.
If tripping/shoving/grappling fits the enemy and the situation, of course I'll have them try to do it to players.
I'm not actually sure how this is even a question?
For example, if you take the CR0 orc brute. It has absolutely nothing to improve its triping ability. Would you use Trip with such monsters, or would you limit this kind of maneuvers to monsters who have specific bonuses to trip like Goblin Commando?
For example, if you take the CR0 orc brute. It has absolutely nothing to improve its triping ability. Would you use Trip with such monsters, or would you limit this kind of maneuvers to monsters who have specific bonuses to trip like Goblin Commando?If tripping/shoving/grappling fits the enemy and the situation, of course I'll have them try to do it to players.
I'm not actually sure how this is even a question?
Sure, sometimes. "Knock someone over" and "grab them so they can't get away" aren't rare, exotic tactics that your basic orc would be unfamiliar with, or that can only be used with special bonuses.
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Considering how tripping is nasty (Flat-Footed, AoO if you get up, loss of action, loss of mobility)As most things don't have AoO, its only slightly worse than being flanked (also flat-footed) because of having to spend an action to stand up.No, it's far worse than flanked.
For Tripping:
First enemy gets to you, trips you, you are flat-footed.
All other enemies come, attack you, you are flat-footed.
Ranged enemies attack, you are flat-footed.
Casters attack, you are flat-footed.For flanking:
First enemy comes, you are not flat-footed.
Second enemy comes, flanks, you are flat-footed.
Third enemy comes, you are not flat-footed. etc...
Ranged enemies attack, you are not flat-footed.
Casters attack, you are not flat-footed.Also, losing an action to get back from prone means that all your action sequence is messed up. Third actions like raising your shield are no more possible, or you give up on your second attack and lose a third of your damage output. Or you take the -2 to all your attacks and lose 25% damage output.
You also get -2 to all your reactions attack, so tripping a Champion or a Fighter can be pretty annoying.If the enemies are able to focus fire, tripping is deadly.
Are you having all of your enemies go at once? That's a recipe for player death no matter what.
Are you having all of your enemies go at once? That's a recipe for player death no matter what.
Been doing it for decades without any issue whatsoever.
I had a trip-heavy villain for one of the first big fights of a campaign, which prompted the monk and fighter to both try tripping in turn to even the field and generally not working for the enemy as well as it did for the party. Grab has done a lot better job of restricting mobility so far.
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Are you having all of your enemies go at once? That's a recipe for player death no matter what.Been doing it for decades without any issue whatsoever.
If you pull some punches and don't focus fire, it works. But if you don't, then all the enemies get to pound down on a single PC without giving anyone the chance to react.
Are you having all of your enemies go at once? That's a recipe for player death no matter what.
I was comparing trip to flank. Both have very similar mechanics. I was just highlighting that trip's better. It has nothing to do with the order enemies go. And someone who's tripped is tripped until he stands up, so, anyway, my enemies can go at the same time or not it doesn't change anything.
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I've used shove successfully against my party in both the playtest and Age of Ashes. In the former a goblin paladin on a wolf mount was kicked off of a cliff by a gnoll. In the latter a human druid was kicked off of a tree platform by a hobgoblin. Twice. That hobgoblin was subsequently dubbed Leonidas by the druid player and became public enemy number one for the rest of the fight.
If you pull some punches and don't focus fire, it works. But if you don't, then all the enemies get to pound down on a single PC without giving anyone the chance to react.Are you having all of your enemies go at once? That's a recipe for player death no matter what.Been doing it for decades without any issue whatsoever.
It really helps with bookkeeping, but at the same time you have to be more careful with your use of flanking abilities, target selection, and things such as trip.
That said I usually break up mobs by type, and roll initiative by group.
Special/Unique/significant threats still get their own initiative, but if there are 6 orc scouts, those get grouped.
I tend to use Trip, Shove, Grapple when I think it makes sense or lends drama to a situation. Or as teaching moments so a player may learn a new trick for their own character after having it done to them. I don't tend to use those options on whim or just because the mob is trained in athletics.
It really helps with bookkeeping, but at the same time you have to be more careful with your use of flanking abilities, target selection, and things such as trip.
I prefer not grouping enemies. That way, PCs can organically interrupt an opposed group trying to trip/flank/combo etc. instead of the GM purposefully pulling their punches. Assuming NPC's init rolls didn't group them up by luck of the dice.
Tactics vary depending on the enemy, but I don't pull punches.