Casting spells from spellbooks

[Senko]

As I was playing around I stumbled across this old rule in my notes and I figured since I'm posting a bunch of stuff right now I may as well toss it out to see what people think of it. Balanced, unbalanced? It was a result of my attempts to justify the vancian system to myself and aimed at allowing out of combat casting of utility spells with a risk of casting combat spells if used for that. In the end I don't recall it ever seeing even limited play testing because I didn't like it.

A caster can cast spells from a spellbook with the following rules as it has not been memorized.

1) Spell casting time increases by 1.5 minimum 1 round per spell level. For example a 3rd level spell that takes 1 round to cast will take (1 x 1.5 = 1.5, minium 3 therefore it takes 3 rounds) 3 rounds, a spell that takes 10 minutes will take 15 minutes.

2) They must make a concentration check of 15 + spell level to succesfully cast it.

3) The spell book must be out and held for them to reference while casting which makes it vulnerable to sunder attacks. If the book is sundered the caster may make one check at DC 20 + spell level to secure enough pages to continue casting the spell, 1d6 + 3 spells in the book rolled randomly are permanently lost if a sunder attack is successful. A second sunder attack on the salvaged pages prevents the spell being cast and destroys the spell the caster is trying to cast.

[avr]

The concentration check is an obstacle at first, but not later on. Your bonus on checks scales slightly quicker than twice as fast as spell level, or even faster if magic items with specific bonuses to concentration get involved.

It's pretty clearly for out of combat use, yes. Out of sneaking-time too probably. For other effects you just need to consider the effect on your world (and separately on your game) of wizards being the best at so many things.

[Senko]

Like I said it never even saw testing. To be honest if I were updating it for use today I'd add a rule that casting from books can't be modified (metamagic feats, eschew materials, etc), change the check DC to 2 x spell level or maybe higher. A high level caster as you said can easily be hitting 40 DC's so I might up the DC's by 5 as well (20 + 2 x spell level and 25 + 2 x spell level), maybe 10.

It was indeed intended for out of combat use utility spells (we had a group at the time with a cavalier, a fighter, a paladin and a mage no rogue or other skill character).

[OmniMage]

This would render scrolls obsolete. At least for wizards that is.

Other classes might feel tempted to get a spell book so they could perform this trick for their spells. You might want to think about allowing them to do that, otherwise the wizard will gain a major edge over other classes.

You would also have more reasons to copy a scroll of a new spell into your spell book instead of casting it. A scroll that is used is used up, but a spell in your spell book will last.

[Senko]

The difference is a scroll can be cast quicker and with no risk at least in how I think I visualized it back then. That is . . .

1) Normal casting you know the spell its geastures, words, mental forms and you can adjust or modify it taking shortcuts like silent spell or modifying its effects like maximize spell and can cast it quickly (normal 1 round casting time).

2) Scrolls are spell completion items all the above has been done by the person who created it and you can just pull it out say the trigger phrase and it goes off instantly.

3) Casting from a spell book is slower, risky and can't be modified.

It probably would reduce if not invalidate out of combat scrolls though using the spell book does have a risk of failure its not likely to be enough to discourage someone trying it over and over. Maybe I should include some risk of blowback on a failed check and a rule you can't take 20?

Fair point about other classes if you did go this route you'd need to treat it as a UMD . . . hmmm I wonder how people would react to including a UMD check and allowing this to non-casters e.g. a fighter could buy some useful spells, put them in a book and make a UMD check plus the normal ones and cast a spell themselves?

[Worthx]

I can't remember if it was an official rule in 2nd Ed or if I housed ruled it this way but we always treated pages in a spellbook as a scroll. If you were in a bind and wanted to cast a spell directly from your book you were free to do so, but that page is now blank. Hopefully you had another copy somewhere.

[OmniMage]

Worthx wrote:

I can't remember if it was an official rule in 2nd Ed or if I housed ruled it this way but we always treated pages in a spellbook as a scroll. If you were in a bind and wanted to cast a spell directly from your book you were free to do so, but that page is now blank. Hopefully you had another copy somewhere.

I did the math and it turns out your use spellbooks as scrolls house rule would be cheaper and faster than normal scrolls.

A 1st level scroll goes for 25 gp, but the cost to write the spell in a spell book costs 10 gp. A 9th level scroll goes for 3825 gp, but the spell book version would be 810 gp.

Likewise, its also faster because it only takes 1 hour per spell level to scribe a spell in a spellbook. Most spellbook spells could be finished in 1 day. In fact, you could probably fit a bunch of spellbook spells in a single day of work. Scrolls normally take 1 day per 1000 gp (rounded up), so a level 1 spell would take 1 day (25 gp), and a level 9 would take 4 days (3825 gp).

There is no mention of caster level. Do you use the minimum caster level required to cast the said spells and minimum DCs, or do you allow the caster to use their own caster level and DCs.

[Lyaris]

Just a few thoughts from my end...

This would increase the power level of spell book users a large amount and make those spells much more free to use. It may also make some class features/feats much less useful such as some wizard schools being able to instantly trade one spell for another, or Arcanist spending full-round to change a spell prepared.

As for justifying the spell casting system in our heads its a artifact from DnD in which the goddess of magic limited the ability for wizards/spell-casters to access unlimited magic use which caused great strain on the magic of the world causing dead areas of life and magic. Not entirely sure what lore they brought over for Pathfinder in this regard. I personally always preferred instead using spell-slots the 3.5 system of power points but for spells if I want to use a system without spell slots but still pathfinder/Dnd though I haven't used it in years for simplicity sake.

I disagree with Worthx treatment of spellbook as a scroll as it much cheaper to have a copy of a spell in the spellbook. That would lead to spell-casters carrying extra spell book for use as scrolls.

If you would like to keep it to out of combat spells instead you may use idea from 4th edition and allow spell-casters to cast them from spell-book as a 'ritual' that takes 10 minutes + normal spell-casting time. This longer time frame still allows more utility spells to be cast while not really effecting the class features that allow you quickly change spells as well.

[Mudfoot]

If you require an empty spell slot that's used up at the time, I see no problem. After all, it then just speeds up the process of learning-and-casting with the risk of messing it up. Of course it doesn't help you ditch the Vancian system.

You obviously need all the components and focus and whatever. You might require that they've memorised Read Magic, and there could be a chance of wiping the page. I'd increase the time taken too.

Bear in mind that this just makes wizards (and a few other like magi) better, and they don't really need the help.

[Worthx]

I wasn't suggesting it be kept exactly the same, it would definitely have to be adjusted to fit Pathfinder spell transcription rules (as this was left over from 1st edition). But it's an option. Things have changed quite a bit in the last 30 years :)

[Lady Asharah]

Why not use D&D rules for ritual casting? They are super simple and effective.

You can cast directly from a spellbook, but it adds extra 10 minutes to the casting time and you can't apply metamagic to the spell.

Makes it impossible to cast such spells in combat, but frees spell slots from spells that would never be used in combat anyway. Scrying, Divination, some long duration buff spells come to mind.

[Senko]

Hmmm I'll have a look for those as I didn't know they existed.

[Goth Guru]

I'm still designing the Book Caster. He or she has unseen servant at will, to hold the spellbook. Maybe it should be a cantrip "Bookstand" that only works for reading materials. They also have the feat "Speed Reading" to cast the spell at it's standard casting time. It would also require the game rule "Once read, always readable" so once they make the understanding roll, they never need roll again for that spell in that book. Spells per day might be like a sorcerer. I would prohibit them from understanding spells that are beyond their highest spell level.