Crafting Question


Rules Discussion


To be clear, I love the systems in 2e and think the game as a whole is nicely balanced while allowing for a bunch of customization, I'm just trying to understand the full picture and make sure I'm not missing something. Also, I'm not trying to munchkinize, but I am looking at what it would mean if a player did try to do such and how much it could/couldn't impact the game.

I've looked through a lot of crafting question posts and I still feel crafting is a bit lackluster. Please review my below understanding and let me know if I'm missing something. Also, please let me know if anyone has any alternate rules that they prefer/that changes things for the better.

I can only craft an item at my level or below
I have to have the formula for an item to craft it, which costs up to 3.5k gp
If I want to craft something, it takes 4days+
I pay 1/2 up front in materials, I either pay the remaining 1/2 after 4 days, or spend the remaining days reducing the cost based on the 'Income Earned' table
I have a chance to fail and waste the time, or crit fail and waste the time as well as 10% materials

Based on the above, crafting would be worth it in the below instances...

I need something really basic while adventuring
I'm in a town which has materials for basic items, but not enough of the basic items
I want an item which I somehow got a recipe for, but no NPC is able to make (I'd assume I could hand the recipe to a NPC crafter to make if needed)
I am crafting an item at exactly my max level

...because otherwise it'd seem a better spend of time to just 'Earn Income', since I'd earn the same amount + 4 days of income or so. I realize it could be the case that there's no jobs of a high level in an area, but by the same logic, I'd assume there'd be no facilities to craft high level items there either.

I'm seeing crafting as just flavor at this point, not as a needed/worthwhile skill (with the exception of basic crafting such as arrows, shield repair, and low level items while adventuring), so I'd likely be better off focusing on Social skills and trying to get discounts on items/being better at the other RP aspects of the game.

Please let me know your thoughts, thank you!


It was definitely a deliberate choice by paizo to make crafting's rate match up with earn income, even at the expense of realism (for example, as a chemist, I can tell you it does not take days to weeks to make a flask sized container of acid). That said, there still are monetary and roleplaying boons for crafting, should you choose to invest in it.

Money wise, when you are crafting an item, you are always earning your maximum possible income, you're just putting it towards your equipment rather than your pocketbook. Using Earn Income restricts you to they types of jobs available. For example, if I'm playing a level 6 character and I visit a small town, I might only be able to find level 2 jobs for my Academia Lore skill to teach people about the fundamentals of magic, or I could earn the equivalent of a level 6 job by crafting myself a new piece of magical gear.

Roleplay wise, if you're in a game in which the market doesn't always have everything you want to buy readily available, crafting lifts those restrictions. The idea of "ye olde magick shoppe" doesn't jive well with some people, and in those types of settings, crafting is extremely helpful for getting the specific gear you want.

All in all, crafting does have legitimate benefits, but it depends a lot on your game setting. You will need to have a good amount of downtime to see benefit from this skill. The financial benefits you reap are based heavily on how much the DM regulates the job and item markets. If your DM makes it so that anyone can get to max level jobs without sweating the details, you're better off using Additional Lore to get an automatically maxed out lore skill for earning income if money is your main concern; if they follow the recommended guidelines for finding a job, you'll be earning significantly more money by crafting gear vs earning income as you advance in proficiency. If you're in a setting where buying any type of magic item is easy, you'll also find crafting to be a mediocre investment, but if your DM controls the market, the benefits of investment are proportionate to how heavy the restrictions; in a setting where magical crafters are rare, your skills will be a valuable asset to the team.

The Exchange

You are not missing anything significant. Crafting in 2e is designed to not shift the WBL. One thing it could do is give you access to less common items

One thing to note is that earn income is dependent upon GM access to opportunity. Thus, it is possible that it would be more advantageous to craft a magic item rather than try to earn income in a remote area.

Scarab Sages

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I guess I just don't see the appeal in crafting any more here. I loved the alchemist for his crafting, but now it seems so mundane. I get that I can just pay up front and have access to lesser items, but lets take Elixir of Life into example.

At Level 1, this item's price is 3 GP, Then we will jump to level 9 for 150.

Level 1 calculations:
1.5GP upfront cost, spend 4 days crafting, spend remaining 1.5GP (If available (common item, probably available) just buy it and save 4 days of downtime.
Task Level 1, .2GP for trained earning, it will take 8 ADDITIONAL days, to save 1.5 GP, so in 12 days we "earned" 1.5 GP. If I just did Earned income that whole time for the same Level 1, I'd make 2.4 GP (.2x12) in essence, loosing 1GP in the 12 days. Including money spent, with crafting, I've spent 1.5 (1.5GP initial, 12 days total crafting), without, I've spent .6GP (.2GP earned for 12 days giving me 2.4GP, but spending 3 GP on the item.)

Bump up to Level 9
Our new Elixir has a cost of 150 GP, so we spend 75. After 4 days, assuming we made the check, we can spend an additional 150GP for the item, or spend up to an additional 19 days crafting to keep our cost that low (75GP/4GP daily earned income) so, 23 days to save 75 GP in item cost. Total earned income? 92 GP. Again, using the same level (if available) to calculate total. At this level I'd say it's a fair assessment pending where you are that these jobs may not be available, so crafting might be the better option, then again, if it is, you'd just do that as your total actual cost is still lower just buying the bloody thing and working Earned Income the whole time.

Oh, just for giggles, 19 level Elixir cost 4,000 GP and 35 days to complete. Earned Income nets 4,550

I get that they were trying to help balance party WBL, but at the same time, they nerfed crafting so much I don't see a need for it, other than character flavor. I'm just going to buy everything.


Crafting is for Repair and Recall checks IMO. If you aren't doing those, it only has a super niche aspect of access outside a settlement limits but the rules already allow for that without craft: "If a character’s level is higher than the settlement’s, that character can usually use their own influence and leverage to acquire higher-level items, as they convince shops to place specialty orders or artisans to craft custom goods, though it might take a bit of time for such orders to be fulfilled." Since crafting takes time anyway, it's really only uncommon/rare items that aren't found that you've somehow gotten the formulas for that make sense and that should be a pretty small list.

Scarab Sages

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Exactly my point. Though having it to identify different alchemical items, there really isn’t much use for creating alchemical items.


Since you asked for alternate rules, one that I like to crib is from Starfinder, which allows your crafting time to be cut down if the item you are making is significantly below your level. I haven't put it into practice yet, so I don't know what would be a good trade off, but the aim is to prevent what people were talking about upthread, where you can be an amazing alchemist, but it still takes you the same amount of time at level 20 to make acid flasks that it did at level 1. Something like a day being shaved off for every X number of levels the item is below yours, for example, or perhaps that tied to your crafting proficiency.

I'll have to do more of a ponder on it.

Sczarni

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dfsearles wrote:
Exactly my point. Though having it to identify different alchemical items, there really isn’t much use for creating alchemical items.

Since I see you do PFS, you might not be aware that Crafting in Society will generally save you more money than you'd gain through Earn Income. The Earn Income task level is your Level minus 2, whereas when Crafting, you determine your savings based on your actual Level.

Pair that with a Boon to lessen your prep time from 4 days to 1 and you can actually save quite a decent amount.

But yeah, outside of Society, there doesn't appear to be as much use.

Scarab Sages

I’ve actually just started PFS, so I don’t have any such boons. I’ll look into it though and see if it’s worth while for my Alchemist.

Perpdepog, as far as I can tell, your Proficiency does increase the amount of progress you make, as the case for the minor elixir, if you made that at level 9, it would only take you 5 days (4 days initial cost +1 day to reduce cost) vs the original 12.

Sczarni

It's an Envoy's Alliance boon that unlocks after 20 Reputation. Pair that with Field Commissioned for 12 days of Downtime instead of 8 and you're a manufacturing machine =)


dfsearles wrote:

I’ve actually just started PFS, so I don’t have any such boons. I’ll look into it though and see if it’s worth while for my Alchemist.

Perpdepog, as far as I can tell, your Proficiency does increase the amount of progress you make, as the case for the minor elixir, if you made that at level 9, it would only take you 5 days (4 days initial cost +1 day to reduce cost) vs the original 12.

Ah, sorry, let me be clearer. In Starfinder crafting a thing takes four hours, or more if it's big. If the item's level is five below the number of ranks you have in crafting then it takes half that time, and so on halving the time with each increment of five.

So a houserule I intend to use is to reduce the number of prep days, or eliminate them entirely, if the thing being crafted is significantly below level. Seems weird to be able to work and buy tindertwigs, but still take a week to make them.

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