Hello everyone,
I found this issue on Divine Wrath. Divine Wrath deals alignment damage and affects neutral characters...
It's kind of buggy to me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure what part is the issue, that neutral characters could take damage, even if it's less? Or the fact that it is a useless spell to a character with a true neutral god?
The first one. Neutral characters are immune to alignment damage, so they are not supposed to take any damage from Divine Wrath...
Divine Wrath has two effects. Damage and a debuff. The damage is alignment damage, so it follows all the rules normally for that.
The rule then says that creatures that match the chosen alignment are unaffected by the spell and creatures who are neither matched nor opposed treat their save as one degree better.
So say you choose Lawful and there's a lawful, neutral and chaotic character in the blast.
The lawful character doesn't roll anything and ignores the spell.
The neutral character rolls and treats their degree of success as one higher, so if they crit fail they're sickened 1. They don't take damage because that's how alignment damage works.
The chaotic character rolls their save as normal, so if they crit fail they take 4d10 damage and are sickened 2.
Huh, I hadn't considered that neutral characters would only suffer the sickened condition rather than alignment damage as a specific exception, but that does seem right by RAW.
If it's about the true neutral god, a player in my group once had a discussion about how true neutral clerics suck for a few things. The way I see it, it is the same as any stat, yes you get less with a poor choice in alignment, same as if you make your Charisma and Wisdom 8's. There are poor options that most people avoid.
Neutral gods also tend to get other blast options. Lightning Bolt for Gozreh, Phantasmal Killer for Pharasma. Even Gorum, who is CN, gets Weapon Storm.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it's about the true neutral god, a player in my group once had a discussion about how true neutral clerics suck for a few things. The way I see it, it is the same as any stat, yes you get less with a poor choice in alignment, same as if you make your Charisma and Wisdom 8's. There are poor options that most people avoid.Neutral gods also tend to get other blast options. Lightning Bolt for Gozreh, Phantasmal Killer for Pharasma. Even Gorum, who is CN, gets Weapon Storm.
Too bad there aren't other options for divine sorcerers who worship no god or a neutral god yet are given Divine Wrath by their bloodline (and by RAW cannot cast it).
Too bad there aren't other options for divine sorcerers who worship no god or a neutral god yet are given Divine Wrath by their bloodline (and by RAW cannot cast it).If it's about the true neutral god, a player in my group once had a discussion about how true neutral clerics suck for a few things. The way I see it, it is the same as any stat, yes you get less with a poor choice in alignment, same as if you make your Charisma and Wisdom 8's. There are poor options that most people avoid.Neutral gods also tend to get other blast options. Lightning Bolt for Gozreh, Phantasmal Killer for Pharasma. Even Gorum, who is CN, gets Weapon Storm.
Yeah that is an issue, to be sure. Albeit one that is fairly easy to house rule.
Sorry, nothing about this screams "poor, innocent player lead astray by a trap option." You pretty much have to go out of your way to have this problem.
Even supposing your point is true (which is isn't), why would that be a good thing to have in the first place?
The neutral character rolls and treats their degree of success as one higher, so if they crit fail they're sickened 1. They don't take damage because that's how alignment damage works.
RAW, these are the rules. But RAI, considering how these spells were handled in PF1, I don't think it was the intent. Especially considering that you ask neutral characters to roll only for a Sickened 1 condition on critical failures... it would have been quicker to say that they don't have to roll.
Also, there's a weird implication of all that: It means that, now, Divine Wrath can be cast on your allies without (much) risk. It's a Fireball-size spell that only targets enemies. It's clearly one of the best AoE spell of the game, now. Damage is low, but it's so easy to have all enemies inside the burst that you can deal tremendous damage...I'm in the process of making an Angelic Sorcerer, and the more I read about the Divine spell list, and the more I discover this is an impressive spell list when it comes to damage, with both the best single target damaging spells, and, thanks to Divine Wrath, extremely potent AoE spells.
I think many overlooked that, when I read people considering the divine spell list to be the worst in the game.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, there's a weird implication of all that: It means that, now, Divine Wrath can be cast on your allies without (much) risk.
Why is that a weird implication? That's just how aligned damage functions in this edition. It was specifically built to work that way. It feels intentional to me.
The problem, of course, is that it's a doubled edged sword and some of the enemies you fight won't be hurt by it either (more or less depending on the type of campaign ofc).
Also, there's a weird implication of all that: It means that, now, Divine Wrath can be cast on your allies without (much) risk.Why is that a weird implication? That's just how aligned damage functions in this edition. It was specifically built to work that way. It feels intentional to me.
The problem, of course, is that it's a doubled edged sword and some of the enemies you fight won't be hurt by it either (more or less depending on the type of campaign ofc).
Weird implication, which is that Divine Wrath, unlike most Fireballs and other AoE spells, can be cast on your allies without issue. Considering that having all the enemies evil is a common situation, it makes Divine Wrath one of the best AoE spell of the game. Maybe the best, in fact, as you can reliably smash all enemies with it every round while Fireball is a very hard to land spell, especially if you want to target all enemies.
Weird implication, which is that Divine Wrath, unlike most Fireballs and other AoE spells, can be cast on your allies without issue. Considering that having all the enemies evil is a common situation, it makes Divine Wrath one of the best AoE spell of the game. Maybe the best, in fact, as you can reliably smash all enemies with it every round while Fireball is a very hard to land spell, especially if you want to target all enemies.
Also, there's a weird implication of all that: It means that, now, Divine Wrath can be cast on your allies without (much) risk.Why is that a weird implication? That's just how aligned damage functions in this edition. It was specifically built to work that way. It feels intentional to me.
The problem, of course, is that it's a doubled edged sword and some of the enemies you fight won't be hurt by it either (more or less depending on the type of campaign ofc).
There's nothing weird about that? Divine Wrath being a great aoe vs the correct alignment seems intentional and pretty cool.
A Paladin gets in trouble while fighting a wave of demons, calls for aid, cleric from the tower calls down Divine Wrath on top of him and lays waste to the demons while the Paladin is fine.
Not sure what "weird implication" there is.
Not sure what "weird implication" there is.
It's just that I was not expecting the Divine spell list to be the blaster spell list. I was expecting the Arcane one or the Primal one at that role. But maybe is it just an issue with my vision of the traditions. It's true that, besides healing, the Divine spell list doesn't have much good spells. So, I think it's kind of balanced.
|
I'm not sure what part is the issue, that neutral characters could take damage, even if it's less? Or the fact that it is a useless spell to a character with a true neutral god?The first one. Neutral characters are immune to alignment damage, so they are not supposed to take any damage from Divine Wrath...
For my own rules, I've said that Alignment damage has full effect vs the opposite alignment, half damage vs neutral, and no damage vs the same alignment. So this way a true neutral can be harmed, at least somewhat, by all alignment damage types, but doesn't suffer the full effects from any of them.
I came up with this rule following the thread a while back about how Divine Lance is like an instant "Detect Evil" spell if you go around throwing it at strangers. This way, non-opposed alignments can still be hurt, so someone throwing around alignment damage doesn't instantly know know the target's alignment.
I'm not sure what part is the issue, that neutral characters could take damage, even if it's less? Or the fact that it is a useless spell to a character with a true neutral god?The first one. Neutral characters are immune to alignment damage, so they are not supposed to take any damage from Divine Wrath...For my own rules, I've said that Alignment damage has full effect vs the opposite alignment, half damage vs neutral, and no damage vs the same alignment. So this way a true neutral can be harmed, at least somewhat, by all alignment damage types, but doesn't suffer the full effects from any of them.
I came up with this rule following the thread a while back about how Divine Lance is like an instant "Detect Evil" spell if you go around throwing it at strangers. This way, non-opposed alignments can still be hurt, so someone throwing around alignment damage doesn't instantly know know the target's alignment.
In general, I disagree with your house rules (I don't like house rules) but this one is a sane one in my opinion.
It's just that I was not expecting the Divine spell list to be the blaster spell list. I was expecting the Arcane one or the Primal one at that role. But maybe is it just an issue with my vision of the traditions. It's true that, besides healing, the Divine spell list doesn't have much good spells. So, I think it's kind of balanced.Divine Wrath is also a bit weaker than arcane and primal blasting spells. A 4th level arcane blast would deal 5d12 (lightning bolt) or 8d6 (fireball), which is about 25% to 45% more than Divine Wrath.
And while dealing aligned damage is often convenient on account of the friendly fire issue, it can also be a problem when fighting Big Dumb Monsters. Divine Wrath ain't going to do you much good when the party fighter is getting unwanted hugs from a Giant Anaconda.
I've played a Paladin in 1E for long enough to know that the "neutral enemy" is a near myth. You fight 90% of the time evil enemies. If you happen to be in a campaign with lots of neutral characters, I agree that Divine Wrath gets impossible to use, but it's the rarity.
Fireball and Lightning Bolt deal more damage, but Divine Wrath has a debuffing component to take into account. Also, good damage resistance is inexistant (outside non evil opponents) and good weakness very common.
Lightning Bolt area is nowhere close to Divine Wrath area, so it's not a competitor. And Fireball deals fire damage, the most easily resisted element.
Sorry, but I don't find Fireball and Lightning Bolt to be valid competitors. You'll be able to put a Fireball once every 3 fights when you can spam Divine Wrath every time there are more than 2 opponents.
Divine Wrath does less damage, but can debuff and is less likely to negatively impact your allies. Fire resistance is common, but weakness to fire isn't exactly rare either and good immunity is one of the most common immunities in the bestiary. Yeah
All of this is really self evident though and I'm still kind of confused about what's weird here or what your point actually is. Is it that Divine Wrath is a good blasting spell if you fight lots of evil enemies? Because, again, that's kind of self evident.
Self evident, not entirely. In previous editions, Holy Smite (the equivalent of Divine Wrath(Good)) was way worse than most blasting spells. Now, it's kind of the bread and butter blasting spell as you can cast it very easily when all the other blasting spells are hyper situational.
It puzzles me, and I tend to think it's not RAI. It makes Divine Wrath too good, in my opinion.
Comparing the two, Holy Smite does slightly less damage than Divine Wrath, but imposes a stronger condition, deals half damage against neutral enemies and gets a damage boost against outsiders. It also targets Will instead of Fort.
That seems fairly comparable. Smite wins outright if you're more concerned about debuffing or fighting outsiders, even (or you're fighting a mix of evil/neutral enemies).
The neutral character rolls and treats their degree of success as one higher, so if they crit fail they're sickened 1. They don't take damage because that's how alignment damage works.RAW, these are the rules. But RAI, considering how these spells were handled in PF1, I don't think it was the intent. Especially considering that you ask neutral characters to roll only for a Sickened 1 condition on critical failures... it would have been quicker to say that they don't have to roll.
Also, there's a weird implication of all that: It means that, now, Divine Wrath can be cast on your allies without (much) risk. It's a Fireball-size spell that only targets enemies. It's clearly one of the best AoE spell of the game, now. Damage is low, but it's so easy to have all enemies inside the burst that you can deal tremendous damage...I'm in the process of making an Angelic Sorcerer, and the more I read about the Divine spell list, and the more I discover this is an impressive spell list when it comes to damage, with both the best single target damaging spells, and, thanks to Divine Wrath, extremely potent AoE spells.
I think many overlooked that, when I read people considering the divine spell list to be the worst in the game.
Do not assume that things work like they did in PF1. Ever. So many things have the opposite ruling, like the DC to jump over a 10' pit. The design team has even bragged about how they did not copy a single word from PF1 into the CRB.
I've found neutral enemies to be pretty common, but a given dungeon will usually have a combination of neutral critters residing in its corners and evil enemies you actually came to kill. So having a combination of blasts available is a good idea if possible.
Comparing the two, Holy Smite does slightly less damage than Divine Wrath, but imposes a stronger condition, deals half damage against neutral enemies and gets a damage boost against outsiders. It also targets Will instead of Fort.
That seems fairly comparable. Smite wins outright if you're more concerned about debuffing or fighting outsiders, even (or you're fighting a mix of evil/neutral enemies).
In fact, you're right, I'll just shut up. I'll first wait to test it, which will take a lot of time as I need to be level 7. And I'm also expecting the nerf hammer to hit it at some point, but the less I speak about it and the lower the chances :D