What are the significant changes to Golarion from PF1 to PF 2 (if any)?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Question. I have bought virtually all of PF1 (and 3.5's) Golarion source material basically for reading material (the fact that some of it gets used when I run an AP is more-or-less icing on the cake), which maks Golarion, like, unique in the annals of history of RPGs, since I've never found any other campaign world be absorbing enough to want to read for the sake of it.

I have picked up dark mutterings the Golarion of PF2 might not quite be the same as PF1 (other than mechanically).

Is this significant to the point of unreconcilable differences? I mean, obviously, aside from events that chnage things based on time, is there any significant what would have to be treated as retrocasual changes to the mythos (as opposed to just stuff that was not expanded upon previous?)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Honestly a lot less than you think. There are the obvious thing like the change of rulers with the passing of time and coming and going of elections.

There are 3 Major things that I can think of all of which are AP spoliers.

Wrath of the Righteous:
The Worldwound is sealed and the demon lord Nocticula get redeemed and becomes a CN Goddess

Return of the Runelords:
The remaining Runelords return to life and are either defeated or allied with the PC's. In the end the Runelord of Envy captures and Island off the coast of Varisia and starts a new nation. Shorsen the Runelord of rust allies with the PC's changes to CN from CE and claims the territory of the former runelord of greed Xin Shalast and starts a new nation "New Thassilon" as a home for artists and outcasts that worships the newly redeemed Nocticula

Tyant's Grasp:
The Whispering Tyrant is set free and uses a mega weapon to destroy mayny cities and settlements in Lastwall and Ustalav. The PC's being Victims of the first attack end up in the dead roads not quite fully dead as pieces of an artifact of Aroden are implanted in their bodies during the destruction of their home. Eventually gaining the aid of Pharasma they return to life. The Tyrant having destroyed more places sets his eyes on Absomlom and the Starstone set on becoming a Deity. Parts of Ustalav and all of Lastwall fall and are now called The Eye of Dread. The PCs manage to defeat the Tyrant at great cost however ultimately only his Physical form was destroyed and his phylactery is still in tact and he his reforming on the Il\sle of Dread and in the wake of his destruction even on the isle of Kortos undead constantly rise from the earth.


All adventure paths are assumed to have happened and gone well for the PCs. This means quite a few things: the Worldwound is closed, the nation of Ravounel has seceded from Cheliax, the goddesses Casandalee and Nocticula exist, the Technic League in Numeria has been shattered. The other big one is that Sargava no longer exists, having revolted against colonial rule and become Vidrian.


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The canonical endings of all the Adventure Paths are considered to have happened, and there are a few other things that happened off-screen, like Sargava is now Vidrian, with the natives having overthrown the old colonial government. I wouldn't say any of it is irreconcilable. Most of it is just "The setting has moved forward 10 years and some things have changed."

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

The timeline for PF2 Golarion accounts for the last decade of progress and adventures in-world. Golarion time is mapped to progress at about the same pace as real-world time, so really old humans in PF1 have likely died or been replaced in the last decade, the resolutions of adventure paths have been canonized (Whispering Tyrant free, Runelords returned, there's a hobgoblin country in the middle of the Inner Sea, a Varki claimed the title of Linnorm King of Icemark, the colony of Sargava was overthrown, etc.)

It's the same Golarion, just with the last 10 years all accounted for in the current lore.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Some creatures look pretty different (kobolds, hobgoblins).

Otherwise the greatest changes are with the deities. The core 20 have bigger restrictions on their Clerics' alignment (no CG Cleric of Gorum for example) and some channel a different kind of energy (Lamashtu does only positive now and so does Pharasma).

Those are really very small things as far as the consistency of the setting goes. But they might make a big difference as far as specific PCs are concerned.

Also Aeons are now LN and Inevitables are one of their subspecies IIRC.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Right, so not really anything then (I don't consider the progression of history to be "change," as such, just, y'know normal progression of a proper world.)

The change to the dieties really sounds more of a mechanical than flavour issue (if there are any APs in PF2 that come out and I'm like "WOW, I have to run that!", I'd just completely convert them to my hybrid 3.5/PF1 system anyway).

Good to know, can continue to get sourcebooks without worrying too much (since the crunch therein was fairly unlikely to get dug-out anyway.)

...

Actually, speaking of time moving on, has anything officially addressed the Aucturn Engima beyond what was in Occult Mysteries, since it seems to be passed the point the countdown clock was supposed to go off?

I ask mainly, because I am INSANE, I really quite fancy doing a ridiculously big, convoluted Osirion AP and chucking in Mummy's Mask, Pact Stone Pyramid, Entombed with the Pharaohs, any society bits I think might work AND pasting in Desert of Desolation[1] because Awesome.

______________________________________________________

[1]Which burned itself into my subconscious when my Dad, shortly after I started roleplaying (with HeroQuest and into Rolemaster and before, even, I think I'd ever played D&D), borrowed a load of quest books from a mate at work for me to read, and Pharoah was one of them. And it burned itself into my hindbrain like none of the others. (I used one of the puzzles in that in the game I wrote for my 18th, and that was 22 years ago...!) (I even snapped up a hard-copy when I saw one in the gaming shop once...) Which is why Mummy's Mask was an aforementioned "WOW, I have to run that!"

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Aotrscommander wrote:


Actually, speaking of time moving on, has anything officially addressed the Aucturn Engima beyond what was in Occult Mysteries, since it seems to be passed the point the countdown clock was supposed to go off?

The Pathfinder Playtest adventure set Doomsday Dawn tells this story.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Michael Sayre wrote:
Aotrscommander wrote:


Actually, speaking of time moving on, has anything officially addressed the Aucturn Engima beyond what was in Occult Mysteries, since it seems to be passed the point the countdown clock was supposed to go off?
The Pathfinder Playtest adventure set Doomsday Dawn tells this story.

Cool.

*looks*

Oh. Um. Okay. That... seems rather disappointing; ouch, that review score. It is apparently not available as a PDF. Which means it's effectively off the table because shipping - well, guess I'll look at Amazon uk, if I can find a second-hand one... *mid post edit* Oh, okay, one for about a fiver, I'll bite at that; I can maybe at least crib *some* use out of it (I mean, I'd be converting it to my house-rules *anyway,* so I can at least use the framework and the maps and what assets are there...)

Ta, anyway.

Silver Crusade

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You should be able to get it as a PDF, it was in the playtest materials.

As for the score, the Adventures were all stressers for the playtest, not exactly fun.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Aotrscommander wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Aotrscommander wrote:


Actually, speaking of time moving on, has anything officially addressed the Aucturn Engima beyond what was in Occult Mysteries, since it seems to be passed the point the countdown clock was supposed to go off?
The Pathfinder Playtest adventure set Doomsday Dawn tells this story.

Cool.

*looks*

Oh. Um. Okay. That... seems rather disappointing; ouch, that review score. It is apparently not available as a PDF. Which means it's effectively off the table because shipping - well, guess I'll look at Amazon uk, if I can find a second-hand one... *mid post edit* Oh, okay, one for about a fiver, I'll bite at that; I can maybe at least crib *some* use out of it (I mean, I'd be converting it to my house-rules *anyway,* so I can at least use the framework and the maps and what assets are there...)

Ta, anyway.

I'm doing some poking to see why the PDF isn't available on the product page, but it looks like if you download the Playtest Bundle here it still gives you the Doomsday Dawn PDF and all the playtest files.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Michael Sayre wrote:
Aotrscommander wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Aotrscommander wrote:


Actually, speaking of time moving on, has anything officially addressed the Aucturn Engima beyond what was in Occult Mysteries, since it seems to be passed the point the countdown clock was supposed to go off?
The Pathfinder Playtest adventure set Doomsday Dawn tells this story.

Cool.

*looks*

Oh. Um. Okay. That... seems rather disappointing; ouch, that review score. It is apparently not available as a PDF. Which means it's effectively off the table because shipping - well, guess I'll look at Amazon uk, if I can find a second-hand one... *mid post edit* Oh, okay, one for about a fiver, I'll bite at that; I can maybe at least crib *some* use out of it (I mean, I'd be converting it to my house-rules *anyway,* so I can at least use the framework and the maps and what assets are there...)

Ta, anyway.

I'm doing some poking to see why the PDF isn't available on the product page, but it looks like if you download the Playtest Bundle here it still gives you the Doomsday Dawn PDF and all the playtest files.

Oh, fantastic! Much appreciated! (Seriously, I needed a win in some form today...!)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd say read it for the story if you're into it but I wouldn't really recommend trying to play the playtest adventures. Or if you do, go heavily off book (Which I guess is implied if you plan to convert to 1E).

The intent of testing mechanics definitely hinders the enjoyment of the game, hence the low rating. If you were going to run it I'd probably listen to some of the developer retrospectives on the playtest cause they zero in on what they were trying to test & often the solution to making it more fun is to ease off that.

But yeah, all the changes to the setting are from logical progression of time. The only changes that contradict old books I've seen have come from spots where 2 sources gave contradictory answers & the 2E Golarion basically confirmed which was right (And honestly I didn't notice any of these, just read about a few... and they were such minor obscure things I didn't even remember them).


One thing that no one has brought up is an official move to new names for a lot of things.

Kytons>Velstrac
Troglodyte>Xulgath
Dark Folk>Caligni

They did so for a combination of reasons, as I understand it. Some were for removing stuff focused on an outsider's perspective. Others have to do with IP and wanting to get out from under the D&D terminology. Not to mention that Aboleth and Kytons were expanded out into such bigger and more detailed things than D&D did.


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Also, goblins are no longer all everyone's favourite ADHD psychopathic pyromaniacs, for some reason.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

They still like fire.

Just like humans though they’re not all exact copies and clones of one caricature. You have some that are psychopaths and some that aren’t, same as humans.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Albatoonoe wrote:

One thing that no one has brought up is an official move to new names for a lot of things.

Kytons>Velstrac
Troglodyte>Xulgath
Dark Folk>Caligni

They did so for a combination of reasons, as I understand it. Some were for removing stuff focused on an outsider's perspective. Others have to do with IP and wanting to get out from under the D&D terminology. Not to mention that Aboleth and Kytons were expanded out into such bigger and more detailed things than D&D did.

True, although in most cases the new names are listed in such a way as to say that they are actually still commonly known by their other name. Like Xulgath and Caligni are often known by their old names to surface-dwellers, and for Velstrac they explained that Kyton is actually their word for a master so they didn't bother correcting the term on the material plane.

Obviously this was just a subtle way to do a change they wanted to do, but it's quite a nice way to implement the change in a way where it's really more of an expanded lore than a strict change.

Doesn't help me find things in the bestiary though I'll admit...

As for Goblins, once again they didn't change them retroactively, they told stories of tribes that weren't covered before. Doesn't make any of the other goblins any less pyromaniacs, it just describes that other types of goblins that weren't previously discussed do exist in substantive numbers. It's a change, but it's done by expanding the lore rather than changing it in a way that invalidates past stories.


Nicolas Paradise wrote:

Honestly a lot less than you think. There are the obvious thing like the change of rulers with the passing of time and coming and going of elections.

There are 3 Major things that I can think of all of which are AP spoliers.
** spoiler omitted **
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Return of the Runelords:
"Shorsen the Runelord of rust . . ."?

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Mudfoot wrote:
Also, goblins are no longer all everyone's favourite ADHD psychopathic pyromaniacs, for some reason.

Not true at all, 90% of goblins probably still are, at least the Rasp goblins in Varisia, just not 100%. Because they vary. And many many posters here have shown examples of unusual goblins that existed in PF1 so the balance in world hasn't even changed. The weird, non-default as foe are just supported in the core rulebook now. Nothing in world has changed.

Usually people saying this either don't know that and are legit confused, or are deliberately being obtuse. If its the former, now you know. If it's the latter I will not respond to any bad faith responses anyway. So good luck! Have fun!


I guess that changed since the playtest. Which is no bad thing, of course.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

… no? This was all presented in the Playtest.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Tim Schneider 908 wrote:

I'd say read it for the story if you're into it but I wouldn't really recommend trying to play the playtest adventures. Or if you do, go heavily off book (Which I guess is implied if you plan to convert to 1E).

The intent of testing mechanics definitely hinders the enjoyment of the game, hence the low rating. If you were going to run it I'd probably listen to some of the developer retrospectives on the playtest cause they zero in on what they were trying to test & often the solution to making it more fun is to ease off that.

Having read it, yeah. I can see why people weren't hugely impressed, the metaplot is a little bit tacked-on, it feels. Fortunately, I think the Osirion bits can be yoinked easily, and if, as my nominal intention would be, to include Entombed with the Pharoahs and Pact Stone Pyramid into the sequence, some of the elements could be easily omitted. (I mean, honestly, the real biggy was actually what the Enigma was, in concept, and Darkest Dawn actually did a good job, I think, with that, even if the execution was... What it was.)

Edit: Out of interest, where might these aforementioned developer retrospectives be located? Google seems only interested in waving business nonsense for that search term; seriously google, the frack, when the first five or so results consist of explictly ignoring over half the keywords...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think the Paizo blogs related to it? Or maybe interviews on Twitch and Know Direction?

It's been a bit.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think a lot of the Doomsday dawn stuff ended up on the youtube channel but is likely buried at this point.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Nicolas Paradise wrote:

Honestly a lot less than you think. There are the obvious thing like the change of rulers with the passing of time and coming and going of elections.

There are 3 Major things that I can think of all of which are AP spoliers.
** spoiler omitted **
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** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

:P everyone gets creaky with age.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Folks see the word playtest and seem to focus on the word "play" and not notice the word "test." Tests aren't really the type of thing that a lot of people would consider fun, but they're EXTREMELY important to do anyway.

We could and should have been more explicit about that, making sure folks knew that the playtest part is more work then leisure.

That said, I'm still pretty pleased with how Doomsday Dawn worked out overall. It was something of a trick to get the story to shine through even as much as it did when the individual parts had to serve playtest goals first and foremost. If I had all the time in the world, I'd be tempted to do a hard-hitting development/rewrite of the entire thing to shore up the storyline and rebuild it as a 2nd edition adventure... but I don't.

Rest assured that while the story wrapped up the Enigma Clock plotline, it did not wrap up the Dominion of the Black. We'll be doing more with them. PLENTY more.

Dark Archive

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Aotrscommander wrote:
I ask mainly, because I am INSANE, I really quite fancy doing a ridiculously big, convoluted Osirion AP and chucking in Mummy's Mask, Pact Stone Pyramid, Entombed with the Pharaohs, any society bits I think might work AND pasting in Desert of Desolation[1] because Awesome.

If you can find an inexpensive copy, Green Ronin's Hamunaptra boxed set is 3.5 AD&D compatible (which makes it a hop, skip and jump away from PF1), and full of interesting ideas to mine for a game set in an Egyptian/Orision/Mulhorand style setting.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The video I was talking about is this PaizoCon panel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM7pZxMiwc0 - the developers are pretty candid about what they were testing & what went right & what went wrong (Both in the playtest but more importantly they spend a fair bit of time disecting Doomsday Dawn itself).

For what it's worth I personally actually enjoyed Doomsday Dawn a lot & I didn't mean to pile onto the negative feedback. I thought you struck a great balance... but I enjoyed the test side of playtest & the look under the bonnet. As just an AP to pull off the shelf and play, the test aspect puts it below Paizo's usual standards (Which was inevitable cause as you point out "test" is part of the word playtest) - with a good GM who puts in some work I'm sure you could put the fun back in cause the story itself is a solid enough base.

There's a part of me that'd love to see that rewrite, but given it'd take time away from original content I'm far more interested to hear the next new idea. Golarion's just full of far too many other stories I'd love to hear - including whatever the next chapter is for the dominion of the black :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Folks see the word playtest and seem to focus on the word "play" and not notice the word "test." Tests aren't really the type of thing that a lot of people would consider fun, but they're EXTREMELY important to do anyway.

We could and should have been more explicit about that, making sure folks knew that the playtest part is more work then leisure.

That said, I'm still pretty pleased with how Doomsday Dawn worked out overall. It was something of a trick to get the story to shine through even as much as it did when the individual parts had to serve playtest goals first and foremost. If I had all the time in the world, I'd be tempted to do a hard-hitting development/rewrite of the entire thing to shore up the storyline and rebuild it as a 2nd edition adventure... but I don't.

Rest assured that while the story wrapped up the Enigma Clock plotline, it did not wrap up the Dominion of the Black. We'll be doing more with them. PLENTY more.

Excellent. The dominion is super creepy and I hate that I love it.

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