A basic shield (no boss or spikes) is considered a Martial weapon, so it uses your martial weapon proficiency if applicable.
If you are not trained with all martial weapons or a shield specifically, you are untrained for shield bash attacks.
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Sorry, guys. Page 286 of the handbook.
'A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack.'
Get a shield boss and you're fine. If you don't want to spend five lousy silver pieces to get one then you have no business trying to make it a weapon anyway.
Sorry, guys. Page 286 of the handbook.
'A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack.'
Get a shield boss and you're fine. If you don't want to spend five lousy silver pieces to get one then you have no business trying to make it a weapon anyway.
Sure. And when you make an attack with that shield bash, it counts as a martial weapon. So if you are proficient with all martial weapons, you are proficient in that attack.
This is intended, so there is no question as to whether a character trained in the defensive use of shields isn't necessarily trained in attacking with them, ala the Druid.
At least that is my interpretation.
Sorry, guys. Page 286 of the handbook.
'A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack.'
Get a shield boss and you're fine. If you don't want to spend five lousy silver pieces to get one then you have no business trying to make it a weapon anyway.
Sure. And when you make an attack with that shield bash, it counts as a martial weapon. So if you are proficient with all martial weapons, you are proficient in that attack.
This is intended, so there is no question as to whether a character trained in the defensive use of shields isn't necessarily trained in attacking with them, ala the Druid.
At least that is my interpretation.
Sorry, wasn't checking the actual situation you were looking at, and forgot that sometimes fate decides that you don't get to use your own weapons all the time.
I personally don't *like* the idea of a shield bash being martial, but I do see where you're coming from ... but this may also fall into the same pit as monk fists: it's not a 'weapon' so weapon-enhancing things don't work for it. It'd still work from martial weapon proficiencies tho.
..now I wonder if a boss and a spike are separate weapons for this purpose.
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I think that is a weapon for proficiency, but not a weapon for runes. An odd corner case.
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Shields are a terrible waste of design space as implemented imho. Instead of "sturdy shields" being specific shields, Sturdy should just be a shield specific rune that can be placed on any shield.
Druids suffer for having limited options for shields at higher levels due to all sturdy shields being steel shields.
There are also a ton of possibilities for shield specific runes that just aren't used unless a new specific magic shield is added.
Honestly shields feel very tacked on as implemented, excepting the shield block mechanic of course. The actual items need some love imho.
So could a deity have shield bash as a favored weapon?
So could a deity have shield bash as a favored weapon?
Don't see why not though I'm not as up on the rules for 2e as I was with 1e. So I guess it depends on what benefits that brings
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So could a deity have shield bash as a favored weapon?
Judging as how Fists can be a favored weapon It seems like Shield Bash could technically be one as well. However I think that Shield Boss or Shield Spikes would make a lot more sense. Especially as what the designer did in the errata is increase the Fist die size to a d6 if your favored weapon was a Fist and those two Shield Items are already mechanism to increase your shield damage to a d6.
Not to mention each of those give a different flavor/feel to the shield. One would imagine most deities would be more alligned to a sturdy boss style or an agressive spikey style rather than just being a fan of shields in general.
I think that is a weapon for proficiency, but not a weapon for runes. An odd corner case.
^ This
A shield can be used as a martial weapon for attacks, using the statistics listed for a shield bash on Table 6–7: Melee Weapons (page 280). The shield bash is an option only for shields that weren’t designed to be used as weapons. A shield can’t have runes added to it. You can also buy and attach a shield boss or shield spikes to a shield to make it a more practical weapon. These can be found on Table 6–7. These work like other weapons and can even be etched with runes.
Hope that helps!
Organized Play Developer
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So could a deity have shield bash as a favored weapon?Not Shield Bash since it's not a weapon, but Imot (one of the Monitor demigods from Gods & Magic) does indeed have Shield Boss as their favoured weapon, so already sorted! :)
One of the reasons I pestered Luis and Eleanor into making sure Imot was added to the lineup was to make sure we got an answer to this question :)
My understanding is that a deity can have a shield boss or shield spikes as a favored weapon, but that you won't see "shield bash" show up (which is as much insight as I have to share at the moment).
The thing that is weird about shields, is that they talk about "adding" a shield boss or shield spikes to a shield, when in fact that element would have to be built into a shield at its creation.
Instead of "adding" a shield boss or spikes to a shield, the rules should simply differentiate between shields that do or don't have a boss or spikes. It's a design choice made by the smith who created the weapon, not something you can "add" after the fact.
I would go further to claim that "sturdy shields" should be a crafting decision as well. Similar to how "masterwork" items worked in PF1/DD3.5.
IMHO, there should be a range of shields available, depending on materials and quality of construction, and that should impact the numerical values of the shield. Any runes added to magical shields should also impact the numerical values that will determine how much punishment a shield can endure before being destroyed.
Sadly, that is not currently the case in PF2. The whole shield characteristic debacle is crying out for robust house rules, or 3pp rules to "fix" it.
It seems like "bashing someone with your plain shield" is something you do out of desperation, not something you plan for.
If you plan on whacking people with your shield, you're going to put a spike or a boss or something to make it more effective as a weapon on there.
From what I understand about armoring, the spike or the boss is the last thing you add to the shield, so you can just put one on after the fact with access to tools. I mean, practically shield spikes are going to break off, so it'd be a shame if you had to replace the whole shield just because the sharp part snapped.
The thing that is weird about shields, is that they talk about "adding" a shield boss or shield spikes to a shield, when in fact that element would have to be built into a shield at its creation.
That's not true. Some targes had a place to screw in spike and a sheath to put it in on the back of the shield when not is use.
So there is no reason that all shields couldn't be built to accept a boss/spike by default so bosses/spikes aren't built in but can be added. All you need is an indentation and a lump of lead to screw into to attach one [that's what targes do].
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I mean, IRL threaded tangs so you can affix it with a pommel nut started sometimes in the 1700s. Golarion has guns, bayonets, and grenades, so presumably they have that.
So all you really need to do to affix a shield spike is "have a hole in the center of your shield so you can stick a blade with a threaded tang in and hold it in place with a pommel nut."
So all you really need to do to affix a shield spike is "have a hole in the center of your shield so you can stick a blade with a threaded tang in and hold it in place with a pommel nut."
Yep and you could easily do the same with a boss that screws into the same hole. They didn't do it in real life, but in a world where you can screw a bomb into a crossbow and fire bolts with energy attached it doesn't seem like a stretch at all.
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IIRC, the whole "threaded tang, so you can have a hidden tang without having to peen the cap on (which was permanent-ish)" thing got started when you were having weapons with elaborate hilts and slender (i.e. breakable) blades. So if you snap the blade, you can keep the hilt and just attach another blade, which requires less effort to make than your intricate swept hilts did.
Since Golarion has rapiers, they probably came up with the same idea.
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We are also talking about a world where magic exists. All we need is a spell called "Arc Welder" and boom, you can put so many spikes on a steel shield.
Really it's just a game convention for the convenience of the players. I doubt Paizo is interested in foisting the foibles of medieval black smithing on the player base.
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Yeah, it is basically the same as making runes something you could transfer. It improves the play experience so much compared to the gains for realism.
This has been going on for a bit, but to summarize:
Things we know:
* You CAN use a shield to attack using your martial proficiency.
* You CANNOT put runes on a shield as you could a weapon.
* You CANNOT get runes on a shield by other manners (such as via the champion's ability or doubling rings) as shields can't have runes on them at all, unlike specific weapons which can't be *etched* with runes.
* A shield with spikes or boss is just like any other weapon being held in the hand the shield is being held in. It doesn't have the above limitations.Things we don't know:
* If you can use a shield for things that require a weapon in hand.
* If you can add trinkets to a shield and use them in a shield bash.I think that's about it. I'd likely allow for the two lower cases, as I don't think they're very game shattering on a d4 weapon.
We know that the answers to both of those questions is no. A naked shield is not a weapon. Period. If you want to use it for feats/abilities that require a weapon, buy a shield boss/spike.
We know that the answers to both of those questions is no. A naked shield is not a weapon. Period. If you want to use it for feats/abilities that require a weapon, buy a shield boss/spike.This has been going on for a bit, but to summarize:
Things we know:
* You CAN use a shield to attack using your martial proficiency.
* You CANNOT put runes on a shield as you could a weapon.
* You CANNOT get runes on a shield by other manners (such as via the champion's ability or doubling rings) as shields can't have runes on them at all, unlike specific weapons which can't be *etched* with runes.
* A shield with spikes or boss is just like any other weapon being held in the hand the shield is being held in. It doesn't have the above limitations.Things we don't know:
* If you can use a shield for things that require a weapon in hand.
* If you can add trinkets to a shield and use them in a shield bash.I think that's about it. I'd likely allow for the two lower cases, as I don't think they're very game shattering on a d4 weapon.
Agreed. Five silver pieces is not a huge barrier, it increases your damage die, it mitigates the 'my shield is broken' issue, and it's supported by the system. You can even have 'I'm the BOSS' etched on it for added value. If you can't drop 5sp on a boss you can't afford runes anyway.