
нум/Num |

Mongol gods (not a list, just a discussion) and Mongol horse culture. In the latter is a discussion of Mongol folk tales and the (intelligent, talking, and magical) horses in them, as well as Mongol non-naming conventions for horses.

Monkeygod |

question, if we take no Templates, are we still able to gestalt archetypes?
Unless I've missed something, gestalt archetypes have nothing to do with templates. You gain them either way.
Templates 'come out of' the extra +6 CR we're allowed, which can be more actual class levels, mythic tiers(limited to MR 4 total) or templates.

River of Sticks |

River of Sticks wrote:What culture would he/she be from? I think it'd be interesting to have a buddhist, hindu, or taoist character in the mix if you haven't decided yet.I'm possibly interested, though it will depend on whether the other campaigns I am in settle down once the current rebuild is complete. Characters this complex get pretty difficult to actively create multiple at one time.
I'd be interested in running an evangalist cleric archer of some kind, riding a winter wolf or a horse if that fits better. Inspire courage to the group and lots of arrows in the air.
I had not decided yet. I need to update my general, out of date knowledge to something more in depth. I'd be most inclined towards a Taoist philosophy, of the three you mentioned, but I'm generally hesitant to RP real world cultures/beliefs I know little about IRL.

Sebecloki |

Critzible wrote:question, if we take no Templates, are we still able to gestalt archetypes?Unless I've missed something, gestalt archetypes have nothing to do with templates. You gain them either way.
Templates 'come out of' the extra +6 CR we're allowed, which can be more actual class levels, mythic tiers(limited to MR 4 total) or templates.
monkey is correct.

нум/Num |

A question on Vigor.
... you take the maximum value for everything, double at first level, and then double the total.
Is 'maximum value for everything' meaning your HP dice on both sides? Your example (which answered a couple of questions I had) isn't gestalt, so I'm not sure if you get the HP from both classes or not. Then there's the bonus HP from Mythic -- same thing there; do you get the bonus HP (converts into Vigor) from both sides of your Mythic tiers? So for example, 5 x 3 = 15 points for Champion, 4 x 3 = 12 points for Trickster -- +15, or +27?

нум/Num |

A little choppy, I felt; I didn't like how the Ukhaantai/Shuurga thing went, so I'm refining it. Question, though, on race.
Is the 'build a 31-point race' a replacement for the free Hybrid, or an option for the 'other half' of the hybrid? I just want solid clarification, is all, as well as giving something of a warning -- a 31-point ARG race is powerful. Just for comparison ...
Dwarf: 11 RP
Gnome: 10 RP
Half-Elf: 10 RP
Half-Orc: 8 RP
Halfling: 9 RP
Human: 9 RP
Other Races
Aasimar: 15 RP
Centaur: 29 RP
Dhampir: 11 RP
Drider: 35 RP
Drow: 14 RP
Drow Nobles: 41 RP
Fetchling: 17 RP
Gargoyle: 36 RP
Ogre: 23 RP
Svirfneblin: 24 RP
Tiefling: 13 RP
So while the 31-point race wouldn't be quite as terrible as a Drow Noble, it's up there in 'woah'-ness, just about on par with a Centaur.
Anyhow. Wondering, because I have a couple/three ways to go, depending.

River of Sticks |

I'm still a long ways from being done for this campaign... Newborns take a lot of time!
I do have a question on a couple of prestige classes though; did we decide what happens if you take a prestige class with "+level to existing class or class feature" abilities? For example, would it get stacked above the normal class level limit, only go up to the normal class level limit (so it only benefits if you multi-classed the normal level progression), or has no benefit at all?

Razan Al-Amin |

I'll echo Num and River of Sticks in their questions.
For reference, where Razan stands on race:
Type: Humanoid (Human; 0 RP)
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifiers: Advanced (+2 to Mental, +4 to Dex, -2 to Strength; 4 RP)
Languages: Linguist (1 RP)
Racial Traits:
Ability Scores: Advanced Dexterity (+2, 4 RP), Advanced Charisma (+2, 4 RP), Advanced Intelligence (+2, 4 RP)
Gift of Tongues (2 RP)
Lightbringer (2 RP)
Magical Linguist (2 RP)
Senses: See in Darkness (4 RP)
Silver Tongued (3 RP)
Weapon Familiarity (Falcata, Mongol Hornbow) (1 RP)
0+0+0+4+1+4+4+4+2+2+2+4+3+1 = 31 RP spent

Sebecloki |

I'll echo Num and River of Sticks in their questions.
For reference, where Razan stands on race:
** spoiler omitted **
My idea had been everyone has 31pts. to hyberdize (that's the 'hybrid' race).
I was assuming everything would stack for level, what was everyone else's assumption?

нум/Num |

Do you want 9th level spells cast by — what, 12th level, I think? IIRC, most prestige classes start being available at 6th or 7th level. So at L10, the caster is throwing spells at 10 (standard) + 4 (prestige) = 14th level, +2 per level after that. Casting wishes and miracles at 12th or 13th level ... could be cool. Would fit into the ultra-powered schema.

Monkeygod |

Do you want 9th level spells cast by — what, 12th level, I think? IIRC, most prestige classes start being available at 6th or 7th level. So at L10, the caster is throwing spells at 10 (standard) + 4 (prestige) = 14th level, +2 per level after that. Casting wishes and miracles at 12th or 13th level ... could be cool. Would fit into the ultra-powered schema.
Wait, what? Right now, the max levels in a class levels you can have is 12. That's including PrCs. Which gets you 6th level spells.
Also, I have no idea how you're getting +2 to caster level per level?

нум/Num |

Read River of Sticks' original question.
Some PrCs say '+1 level of existing class' or some variant thereof -- here's the Arcane Trickster as an example. RoS is wondering if, for a random example, he does this:
Wizard 12 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 8
He's wondering if his '+1 level of existing class' from Arcane Trickster (+8 levels) will stack directly onto his Wizard levels, resulting in a character who's getting spells per day, spell levels, and an effective casting level of a 20th level Wizard. He isn't a Wizard 20, but he'd be casting as though he were. And for the next couple of levels (or for as long as he can add in PrC levels that have '+1 level of existing class' for their spellcasting), he'll be able to gain the advantage of both Wizard and Arcane Trickster -- so at 13, he'd be:
Wizard 13 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 9
... and therefore 13 + 9 = 22. All the way up to:
Wizard 20 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Loremaster 6
... at which point he would be casting as a 20 + 10 + 6 = 36th level wizard. Which, considering the spell-point system, is potentially doable.

Monkeygod |

Read River of Sticks' original question.
Some PrCs say '+1 level of existing class' or some variant thereof -- here's the Arcane Trickster as an example. RoS is wondering if, for a random example, he does this:
Wizard 12 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 8
He's wondering if his '+1 level of existing class' from Arcane Trickster (+8 levels) will stack directly onto his Wizard levels, resulting in a character who's getting spells per day, spell levels, and an effective casting level of a 20th level Wizard. He isn't a Wizard 20, but he'd be casting as though he were. And for the next couple of levels (or for as long as he can add in PrC levels that have '+1 level of existing class' for their spellcasting), he'll be able to gain the advantage of both Wizard and Arcane Trickster -- so at 13, he'd be:
Wizard 13 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 9
... and therefore 13 + 9 = 22. All the way up to:
Wizard 20 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Loremaster 6
... at which point he would be casting as a 20 + 10 + 6 = 36th level wizard. Which, considering the spell-point system, is potentially doable.
Except that's not how it works for this game, unless Seb has changed things.
In his other games, you have to take 6 levels in a base class on both sides of your gestalt, initially.
Additional levels in your base classes, prestige classes, templates and mythic tiers come out of the +6 extra CR 'bin' that we get. Thus, you can only take up to six levels of a PrC. There's no taking 4 levels in a base and then 8 levels in a PrC.

нум/Num |

You're ... yeah, definitely missing the question, one which I didn't even ask. I'm just explaining what the question was, and what the logical consequence of that particular interpretation was. So cool your jets, and y'know -- wait for Seb to actually say something, maybe. 'Cause he hasn't.
Again, not my question, don't care one way or the other, doesn't affect me.

Monkeygod |

Wizard 12 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 8
You can't do this. At all. It's an illegal build.
You have to take at least 6 levels in your base classes. Which means, you have to be Wizard 6/Rogue 6, before utilizing the extra +6 for more base classes, PrCs, templates or mythic tiers. You can't take less than 6 levels in your base class.
I actually helped Seb finalize all of these rules, so while I do not have the last word regarding them, I am quite knowledgeable in what they are.

Razan Al-Amin |

Razan Al-Amin wrote:I'll echo Num and River of Sticks in their questions.
For reference, where Razan stands on race:
** spoiler omitted **
My idea had been everyone has 31pts. to hyberdize (that's the 'hybrid' race).
I was assuming everything would stack for level, what was everyone else's assumption?
Cheers for clarifying. That fits with my guess for Razan. 12 class levels plus 2 prestige class levels for 14 levels total.

нум/Num |

нум/Num wrote:
Wizard 12 / Rogue 4 / Arcane Trickster 8
You can't do this. At all. It's an illegal build.
You have to take at least 6 levels in your base classes. Which means, you have to be Wizard 6/Rogue 6, before utilizing the extra +6 for more base classes, PrCs, templates or mythic tiers. You can't take less than 6 levels in your base class.
I actually helped Seb finalize all of these rules, so while I do not have the last word regarding them, I am quite knowledgeable in what they are.
And honestly, I don’t care — it isn’t my question, and it was just an example. If that makes it 12/6/6, nearly the same result — an effective L18 Spellcaster. You’re missing the forest for the trees, but once again, not my question, not my problem.

нум/Num |

Sebecloki wrote:Cheers for clarifying. That fits with my guess for Razan. 12 class levels plus 2 prestige class levels for 14 levels total.Razan Al-Amin wrote:I'll echo Num and River of Sticks in their questions.
For reference, where Razan stands on race:
** spoiler omitted **
My idea had been everyone has 31pts. to hyberdize (that's the 'hybrid' race).
I was assuming everything would stack for level, what was everyone else's assumption?
I think the max is a total of 12 class levels — 6/6 base, then 6/6 from trading in templates. Or maybe you meant 6/6 and 1/1 instead of the 12/12 and 2/2 I was thinking of. :P

Monkeygod |

Then bugger off. You clearly have zero idea how gestalt works.
You can't stack caster levels that way.
If you take 12 in Wizard, that's the max level of casting. If you then take 6 levels in literally any other base class, and then 6 levels in a PrC, the casting level increases apply the second base class. Not your levels in Wizard.
If Seb is ruling differently, that's on him, but that's not the way his other games are run, nor is that the way any of countless gestalt games I've been in since Unearthed Arcana was printed back in 2004. Every GM I've been under rules this way, here on Paizo and IRL.
You pick a 'side' for your PrCs to increase things like caster level or in the case of the Evangelist, your Aligned Class abilities.

Vrog Skyreaver |

It's worth mentioning that in the base gestalt rules, it specifically calls out Prestige classes like Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge as being classes that should be disallowed when using gestalt, mainly because they're already effectively gestalt classes.
As far as taking other prestige classes in a gestalt goes, it is my understanding that the prestige class you take on one side of the gestalt only applies to the side of the gestalt it's on, so you couldn't (for example) take 10 levels of wizard on one side of the gestalt, and then take 5 levels of fighter and 5 levels of eldritch knight on the other side (just using eldritch knight as an example; it's another class that's called out as being unallowed)

River of Sticks |

Ok, wow. Let me clarify here what I was asking, since it definitely got misinterpreted. And as Vrog says, that interpretation isn’t even legal. What I was asking about specifically is whether a PrC can break the class limit of 12 for anything. The Prestigious HOPF is the most likely offender here (and maybe I’ll just avoid it), as are classes with “aligned class” features. You can’t stack across the gestalt typically, but if you took a PrC that improved class features via HOPFs (Prestigious, mythic gestalt for 1 minute per mythic power, used magic user or some other HD based caster level not normally linked to one “side” or another, etc) would it stack past 12, only stack up to 12, or not stack at all?

Sebecloki |

Razan Al-Amin wrote:I think the max is a total of 12 class levels — 6/6 base, then 6/6 from trading in templates. Or maybe you meant 6/6 and 1/1 instead of the 12/12 and 2/2 I was thinking of. :PSebecloki wrote:Cheers for clarifying. That fits with my guess for Razan. 12 class levels plus 2 prestige class levels for 14 levels total.Razan Al-Amin wrote:I'll echo Num and River of Sticks in their questions.
For reference, where Razan stands on race:
** spoiler omitted **
My idea had been everyone has 31pts. to hyberdize (that's the 'hybrid' race).
I was assuming everything would stack for level, what was everyone else's assumption?
Yes, I think how we're playing in all the other games is you can only have a, combined, 12 levels of class levels, base and prestige. Otherwise, you can be 18th level potentially, which isn't how I envisage this.

Sebecloki |

Ok, wow. Let me clarify here what I was asking, since it definitely got misinterpreted. And as Vrog says, that interpretation isn’t even legal. What I was asking about specifically is whether a PrC can break the class limit of 12 for anything. The Prestigious HOPF is the most likely offender here (and maybe I’ll just avoid it), as are classes with “aligned class” features. You can’t stack across the gestalt typically, but if you took a PrC that improved class features via HOPFs (Prestigious, mythic gestalt for 1 minute per mythic power, used magic user or some other HD based caster level not normally linked to one “side” or another, etc) would it stack past 12, only stack up to 12, or not stack at all?
Can you give me a clearer example of this? The thing already disallowed by the gestalt rules is still disallowed, but I think there's another category of stacking I'm not sure about and I need an example.

Sebecloki |

Then bugger off. You clearly have zero idea how gestalt works.
You can't stack caster levels that way.
If you take 12 in Wizard, that's the max level of casting. If you then take 6 levels in literally any other base class, and then 6 levels in a PrC, the casting level increases apply the second base class. Not your levels in Wizard.
If Seb is ruling differently, that's on him, but that's not the way his other games are run, nor is that the way any of countless gestalt games I've been in since Unearthed Arcana was printed back in 2004. Every GM I've been under rules this way, here on Paizo and IRL.
You pick a 'side' for your PrCs to increase things like caster level or in the case of the Evangelist, your Aligned Class abilities.
No one's asked about taking less than 6 levels in a class, so I hadn't thought about it; clearly, there's an issue with starting out 18//18 3//3MR as opposed to everyone else, which is why we made the level 12 cap. Is there a similar power imbalance between 2//2 1//1 MR + CR 12?

River of Sticks |

A couple examples of what I am talking about.
Example 1: Wizard 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting”
Example 2: Wizard 10 / Fighter 2 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting”
Example 3: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” for ½ HD caster level
Example 4: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” and HOPF Mythic Magic User for full HD caster level
Example 5: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Mythic Gestalt and using its "Spend 1 Mythic Power to get the first level of a Prestige class for 1 minute" ability for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” and HOPF Mythic Magic User for full HD caster level

Sebecloki |

A couple examples of what I am talking about.
Example 1: Wizard 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting”
Example 2: Wizard 10 / Fighter 2 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting”
Example 3: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” for ½ HD caster level
Example 4: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” and HOPF Mythic Magic User for full HD caster level
Example 5: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Mythic Gestalt and using its "Spend 1 Mythic Power to get the first level of a Prestige class for 1 minute" ability for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” and HOPF Mythic Magic User for full HD caster level
Can the other rules mavens in the thread please comment on the potential legality of these examples?
My initial feeling is we need a house ruling to disallow most of these if they're technically RAW. I think we can allow a lot of things, but full casters w/ 9th level spells are going to inevitably outshine everyone else in a way that I think will probably make this game not fun for the other players.

Monkeygod |

Well, for starters, both gestalt and prestigious do not allow you to advance spellcasting. You only get the 'special' class features(bonus feats, sneak attack, channeling, smite, etc).
Secondly, while you can technically take magic user for a class you already have spellcasting from, I'm Pathfinder limits your caster level to your character level/HD except in rare, specific cases(I believe there are to boost your CL past your HD for one spell, for example).
Even if this isn't build into PF, let's just adopt that rule:
Your caster level can not exceed your character level/HD.
Unless there's something I'm missing(I did just wake up a little bit ago, lol) that should eliminate any nonsense as our character level/HD is capped at 12.

River of Sticks |

Aye, I had it pointed out to me that most spellcasting progressions do not list it in the "Special" column. The Evangalist PrC is the only Paizo one I am aware of with an "Aligned Class" that would get around some of the RAW restrictions of Prestigious. There are a few more third party ones out there, too; most from the recent City of 7 Seraphs product.
I think the only remaining example that could work would be this one, modified slightly:
Example 2: General Class 10 / Fighter 2 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with "Aligned Class"; would it cap out at Class Level 12?

Razan Al-Amin |

Ah. It appears that I've kept overlooking something then.
With:
Male Human (Bloodline of Avidius Cassius)
Classes: Paladin (Virtuous Bravo, Weapon Champion, Oath of Charity - not free) 12 // Bard (Arcane Duelist, Dervish Dancer)
PRCs: Holy Vindicator 2 // Mystic Theurge 1 / Soul Warden 1
Mythic Tiers: Champion 2 // Hierophant 2 (Dual Path into Archmage)
Templates: None taken
Spellcasting and abilities would be capped at 12 then?