Pro100Andr |
Elemental Ascetic have a cool concept: elemental master of matrial arts. But on paper this archetype is weak: your main ability become Wisdom instead of Constitution(you will less hipoints), you loose elemental defence and elemental overflow and gain powerfull fist, wis to Ac and flurry. I think that trade is not fair. How you think, what changes can make this archetype better?
avr |
The title is one question, the subject is another. Optimising what's there is different from homebrewing a solution.
First, looking at what you get as an elemental ascetic - you get flurry of blows as a core monk, unarmed only. You get a monk's AC bonus more or less. You get to use kinetic fist for free; 1d6/3 levels damage (more with burn later) added to your 1d3 unarmed damage. Wild talents are as normal for a kineticist but you lose a few infusions. You don't get any ranged use of your kinetic blast, or any kinetic defence. You lose elemental overflow.
The big problem there is that you don't get much mobility or ranged stuff. As soon as you do more than a 5' step you're back to one attack at 3/4 BAB with no in-class attack bonus and weak damage. Ranged attacks are limited to simple weapons, which could be buffed slightly if you take the right infusions. What it most needs is a movement ability, something like an unchained monk's flying kick style strike would do. Adding fast movement and style strikes per unchained monk - maybe pay an infusion for each style strike, max one such per 5 levels - would be a simple fix which might work.
If OTOH I were looking to optimise it as it stands I might dip one level in sohei monk for mounted skirmisher and buy something to ride. Doesn't fit the image, true.
Pro100Andr |
The title is one question, the subject is another. Optimising what's there is different from homebrewing a solution.
First, looking at what you get as an elemental ascetic - you get flurry of blows as a core monk, unarmed only. You get a monk's AC bonus more or less. You get to use kinetic fist for free; 1d6/3 levels damage (more with burn later) added to your 1d3 unarmed damage. Wild talents are as normal for a kineticist but you lose a few infusions. You don't get any ranged use of your kinetic blast, or any kinetic defence. You lose elemental overflow.
The big problem there is that you don't get much mobility or ranged stuff. As soon as you do more than a 5' step you're back to one attack at 3/4 BAB with no in-class attack bonus and weak damage. Ranged attacks are limited to simple weapons, which could be buffed slightly if you take the right infusions. What it most needs is a movement ability, something like an unchained monk's flying kick style strike would do. Adding fast movement and style strikes per unchained monk - maybe pay an infusion for each style strike, max one such per 5 levels - would be a simple fix which might work.
If OTOH I were looking to optimise it as it stands I might dip one level in sohei monk for mounted skirmisher and buy something to ride. Doesn't fit the image, true.
Im talking and about the homerules changes and about multiclassing and feats
avr |
I think change Wis to Con( as a normal) can be good option
This doesn't fix the big problem of the elemental ascetic, as I described above. It doesn't even touch it. And switching back to Con loses some of the flavour which is presumably the reason you'd look at it in the first place.
avr |
Like I said fast movement and some access to style strikes (probably at the cost of infusions) are a start. Doing just 1d3 damage base seems embarrassingly bad, give it damage as per a monk 2 levels lower as can be seen on a few other such classes (e.g. bloody-knuckled rowdy bloodrager). I think ki powers are unnecessary; kineticist abilities serve that function.
With that done I'd make a few characters and compare them to see how they pan out. I don't think their powerful fist ability matters much but I'd have to run the numbers to confirm it before I'd make more changes.
Pro100Andr |
Like I said fast movement and some access to style strikes (probably at the cost of infusions) are a start. Doing just 1d3 damage base seems embarrassingly bad, give it damage as per a monk 2 levels lower as can be seen on a few other such classes (e.g. bloody-knuckled rowdy bloodrager). I think ki powers are unnecessary; kineticist abilities serve that function.
With that done I'd make a few characters and compare them to see how they pan out. I don't think their powerful fist ability matters much but I'd have to run the numbers to confirm it before I'd make more changes.
I think that monks unarmed damage need to be elemental damage
DeathlessOne |
You could model it somewhat like the Water Dancer Monk, but with more of a focus on kineticist abilities. Also, there is an substance infusion that kineticists can gain access to (Stylish Infusion) that allows those of them that make use of the Kinetic Fist infusion to make use of unMonk style attacks. You could build that into the progression and lower the burn cost.
Melkiador |
I think change Wis to Con( as a normal) can be good option
Technically, you can already do that.
An elemental ascetic can use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Constitution modifier to determine...
So using wisdom or constitution is a choice. But the defense ability is still wisdom based and having a good wisdom is nice for a low will save class anyway, so I doubt many would choose constitution.
And the ascetic can use some ranged infusions, but not any that make a ranged attack roll. So something like bolt or eruption should work fine. You could even ride the blast like that.
Pro100Andr |
You could model it somewhat like the Water Dancer Monk, but with more of a focus on kineticist abilities. Also, there is an substance infusion that kineticists can gain access to (Stylish Infusion) that allows those of them that make use of the Kinetic Fist infusion to make use of unMonk style attacks. You could build that into the progression and lower the burn cost.
I have some thoughts about that, but i dont know what abilities replace
Elemental flurry works the same, but in furry bonus damage is equal Monk's unarmed damage - 2
Toug defence: the same as AC Bonus, but insted Wisdom bonus equal Constitution mod
Evasion: instead of 1 infusion or utility talent you gain evasion
Stylish matrial arts: on 5th level elemenytal ascetic gain Stylish Infusion with cost of 1 burn. On 9, 13 and 17 level you select aditional unchained monk style strike and can use 2 of them in flurry(this replace metakinesis)
Gather knowledge: when you use Gather Power you can reduse less burn, but each burn, that you dint reduse(but you can)you gain +2 to Strengh, Dexterity or Constitution(this alters Gather Power)
Pro100Andr |
Before today, I'd never noticed that the ascetic can have some decent ranged options. I might need to revise how I rate it. I still don't like it as much as the vanilla kineticist, but I don't think it necessarily embarrases itself. I mostly just really miss elemental overflow.
elemental overflow is replaced for gain flurry. i think is good trade
avr |
Flurry of blows is intended as a direct replacement for elemental overflow in the archetype. Besides the extra attack core monk flurry gives BAB = class level.
Area form infusions are mostly very bad and/or high level, but spindle got added in the elemental master's handbook and it's OK. I hadn't noticed there were useful exceptionsto the ascetic's range ban.
Stylish infusion does seem acceptable for movement within a melee. With that and a little tinkering elemental ascetic could probably work.
avr |
Ah, right, not quite back to square one but...a while back I said one of the changes I'd make would be to give the ascetic fast movement as a monk. I think that just went back on the list of necessary changes.
Ride the blast with spindle is a standard action to move 30' at a minimum character level of 15 for an ascetic. Blade rush is possible I guess but without elemental overflow, and not working with any unarmed feats you'd be getting, it looks kind of bad.
Melkiador |
I was thinking pummeling charge might be good, but that is also very late level for the kineticist.
If I were going to add a little something to the ascetic, I might give it the ability to count its levels as monk levels for meeting prerequisites. That would also give it the ability to get pummeling charge at level 9, or 8 with retraining.