MorikTheMad's page

I do understand the arguments BNW & Garretmander are making, but I do not think it is clearly the case that "Soulfire is a fusion that cannot affect a small arm."

If you do read it as unable to affect a small arm, then yes the argument is valid and soulfire's benefit cannot be gained by solar flare.

But soulfire does not say, for instance, that it can only go on melee weapons. It says, essentially, that it can only go on weapons that can be augmented with a crystal. This does not categorically exclude melee weapons--if a particular melee weapon can be augmented with a crystal, it can work with soulfire.
It also does not categorically exclude small arms, thrown weapons, long arms, or any other category. If the thing in question can be augmented by the crystal, it can use soulfire.

This is quite different from a fusion that says "this only goes on melee weapons". This very clearly cannot go on a small arm, no matter what properties that small arm has (well, unless it has some specific rule that it can use melee-only things).

I.e., "only works with weapons that have property X" should not be read as "Can never be applied to <melee | small arm | long arm | thrown> weapons."

Going back to the AND gate inputs.

Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

italic = input A

bold = input B.

The arguments as I understand them:

1) Literally, soulfire goes on weapon crystals, small arms aren't weapon crystals, so B is false.

I don't find this particular argument compelling--the interaction between crystals & fusions is fuzzy enough that a literal 'this goes on crystals only, so can't go on a small arm' seems silly to me, in the same way that 'you can't use interposing on solar weapon, because you'd have to put it on a crystal, and a crystal isn't a melee weapon' seems silly.
I.e., if it is incorrect to say "soulfire can never work with a melee weapon, because melee weapons aren't weapon crystals", then I don't see why people are arguing it is correct to say "soulfire can never work on a small arm, because a small arm isn't a weapon crystal".
The most reasonable way to read it is that it works on things (whether they are small arms, melee weapons, or whatever) that can be augmented with the crystal.

2) Solar flare cannot use 'A' to qualify for soulfire, because 'A' doesn't come into play without first passing 'B', and you can't pass 'B' without 'A'. (I think this is perhaps why BNW found my argument circular earlier in the thread.)

My disagreement here is with considering soulfire as categorically excluding small arms; since it is possible for soulfire to work with a small arm (if it has the right properties), soulfire does not have the property "can never work with a small arm", so B doesn't trigger.

Just like 'only works on weapons that deal fire damage' doesn't exclude the categories 'ranged|melee|thrown|etc', 'only works on weapons that can be augmented with the crystal' doesn't exclude those categories either.
Just like "only fire damage weapons" != "can never work on a thrown weapon", "only weapons augmentable with the crystal" != "can never work on a small arm".

BigNorseWolf wrote:

There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.

I'm failing to parse this one.

No, there isn't an 'or'. But there is a 'though'.

And with Soulfire we have an item that does work on Solar Manifestations, but doesn't work on small arms. So why does the restriction take precedence? Why not the permission? There are plenty of other things that the restriction is restricting. So the restriction isn't unnecessary even if it doesn't apply to Soulfire.

i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?

I think they are saying this:

You cannot apply soulfire directly to a small arm, because it can only go on a weapon crystal.

What I am saying is: "applied to" should be read as "works with" given the funkyness in general around fusions on crystals. And I don't think it is correct to argue soulfire doesn't "work with" a small arm that "is affected the same way" as solar weapon by text referring to 'a solar weapon augmented with a crystal'. (Unlike, say, interposing, which does not work with small arms, whether or not they are able to augment with crystals. Soulfire doesn't categorically exclude small arms; it categorically excludes any weapon that can't be augmented with the fused crystal.)

Yet, they are also saying "you can apply interposing to a crystal, even though a crystal is not a melee weapon".

Morik the mad wrote:

Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...

EXCEPT things that won't work on small arms.

no, not 'things', only these 3: fusions/crit effects/weapon props.

Augmenting with a crystal is not one of those. Any text referring to "a solar weapon augmented by a crystal' applies to solar flare the same way it applies to a solar weapon.

----------------

Can you put interposing fusion on a weapon crystal? What is your rationale for this, given that "a weapon crystal is not a melee weapon, interposing can only go on melee weapons".

If the rationale is that the crystal transfers the fusion's requirements to the weapon, then the only reasonable way to interpret "crystal only" fusions, is that they work with any weapon (be it a small arm, melee weapon, or what have you) that can be augmented with the crystal.

If you are going to argue that "crystal only fusion cannot work with a small arm, even one that can be augmented with the crystal", how are you on the other hand arguing "melee only fusions can be applied to a crystal, even though it isn't a melee weapon"?

You've skipped a step. You aren't checking if the fusion's effect works with a solar weapon, then applying the fusion.

You are checking if the fusion can be applied on a small arm, which it can't.

When you check if a fusion's effect works (with any weapon), you check that all of the fusion's requirements are met.

In the case of, say, the interposing fusion & solar weapon, you would go through these steps:
- Put interposing on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Interposing's requirement is "You can add the interposing fusion only to a melee weapon." Is this requirement met? -> Yes (despite the fact that a weapon crystal is not a melee weapon)-> Fusion works.

Going through these same steps with flare:
- Put interposing on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Interposing's requirement is "You can add the interposing fusion only to a melee weapon." Is this requirement met? -> No, this fusion can't be applied to a small arm because a small arm isn't a melee weapon -> Fusion does not work.

Now with soulfire on solar weapon:
- Put soulfire on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Soulfire's requirements are
1) The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.
and
2) When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, <fusion has effects>
- Is the fusion on a crystal? Yes. Are you augmenting a solar weapon with the crystal? Yes. Fusion works, despite the fact that a solar weapon is not a solarian weapon crystal.

Now with soulfire on solar flare:
- Put soulfire on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Is the fusion on a crystal? Yes. Are you augmenting a solar weapon with the crystal? Yes, per "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way", the flare is treated as a solar weapon augmented with the crystal.
Is there anything in these requirements that prevents a (small arm) solar weapon augmented with the crystal from fulfilling these requirements? No. Is the solar flare a (small arm) solar weapon for the purposes of text that references/affects solar weapons? Yes.
So it doesn't fall afoul of the 'though' clause, because this particular small arm meets the fusion's requirements.

I don't see how you can argue on the one hand that things like "melee only" can go on crystals and transfer the requirement through to the weapon, but "a weapon crystal isn't a small arm"...
Either requirements all transfer through (so if it says crystal only, any weapon augmented with the crystal meets that particular requirement, and if it says melee only, you can put it on a crystal and check against the augmented weapon), or none of them do.
The argument that a small arm isn't a crystal, so flare can't use crystal-only fusions, is very similar to saying "you can't put interposing on solar weapon, because it has to go on the crystal, and the crystal isn't a melee weapon".

MorikTheMad wrote:

Viewpoint 2 says "can this fusion be applied to a small arm that is treated as a solar weapon with regard to weapon crystals", and the answer is yes--the only requirement for the soulfire fusion to work is that it is fused to a crystal, and that crystal is augmenting a solar weapon.

This is more than a mite circular.

How so?

Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...

--> Solar flare can be augmented with crystals, and things that affect a solar weapon augmented with crystals affect the solar flare the same way.

I.e., for the purposes of things that say "when you do X with a solar weapon augmented by a weapon crystal", the flare is affected the same way.

Soulfire's requirement is that you "hit something with a solar weapon augmented with the fused crystal".

Solar flare meets this requirement. The fusion doesn't care whether its a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, a thrown weapon, a grenade, or a piece of ammo. All it cares about is that you "hit something with a solar weapon augmented with the fused crystal". Flare meets this requirement.

And completely ignores why people say it doesn't work

The notion that the fusion being only applicable to the crystal discounts it from being applied to a small arm, despite that small arm being augmentable with the crystal is, to use your words, a jerk-ass genie argument.

The fusion is not restricted from being put on a small arm any more than it is restricted from being put on a melee weapon.

All of the requirements of the fusion are met:
- The fusion is on a crystal
- You are hitting something with "a solar weapon augmented by the crystal"--flare counts as a solar weapon augmented by the crystal due to the first part of that sentence (Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...)

breithauptclan wrote:

The first says that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare, the seconds says that it shouldn't.

It's one sentence, and the clauses are not contradictory. The second half is a clarification of the first.

For example, a solarian weapon crystal (and the weapon it's attached to) can gain these effects:

The defending fusion
The soulfire fusion
The menacing fusion
The throwing fusion
The block special property
The reach special property
The shell special property

The ', though it can't gain' excludes those effects from the solar flare with that same crystal getting those effects.

I understand for all of those except soulfire.

If a fusion said "this can only go on weapons that deal fire damage" you wouldn't say "a small arm is not necessarily a weapon that deals fire damage, so it doesn't work". You would check whether the specific small arm you are applying it to does fire damage.
Similarly, when soulfire says "this works when you hit someone with a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal", you check this against flare, and this condition is met--the flare is a solar weapon augmented by the crystal.

This doesn't work for any of the others, because when you check the fusion's conditions, they categorically exclude small arms (or larger categories small arms are part of, such as ranged weapons).

The ability to jump from solar weapon to solar flare is dependent on being able to go on a small-arm.

I think this is where the contention lies.

Viewpoint 1 says "can this fusion be applied to an arbitrary small arm" -> no -> doesn't work.

Viewpoint 2 says "can this fusion be applied to a small arm that is treated as a solar weapon with regard to weapon crystals", and the answer is yes--the only requirement for the soulfire fusion to work is that it is fused to a crystal, and that crystal is augmenting a solar weapon.

'When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion' is satisfied by the flare, per:
"Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way".

Is flare a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal? Yes, per the above. (Fusions don't even come into it yet; the though statement is not triggered for this part--the flare definitely counts as a solar weapon augmented by the weapon crystal.)

Can it use the soulfire fusion? Here the though statement comes into play.
Some fusions have a blacklist condition, such as "you cannot put this on ranged weapons". Some have a whitelist condition, such as "this can only be put on melee weapons".
The soulfire fusion has a whitelist condition: it works if you hit something with a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal.

Do you disagree that the fusion is treated as "a solar weapon augmented by the crystal"? If you don't disagree with that, then I don't see how you can argue that the fusion's requirements aren't met. It works with any weapon that is treated as "a solar weapon augmented by the crystal".

MorikTheMad wrote:

.

Is this the understood process for fusions interacting with solar

This isn't even wrong.

At no point in the process is the idea to make a hard set of rules that you then follow like a jerkass genie. (and even THEN get wrong because soulfire specifically points out that it goes on the crystal but applies to the weapon)

At no point is the idea to turn a very complicated and straightforward process into an idea so complicated it breaks, and then blame the original idea rather than the rube goldberg process read into it.

I cannot make sense of any of that. If you have an argument or something for why what I said is incorrect, please present it. I read this as an attack against how I am arguing, without attempting to refute what I said.

There is some set of rules for how you apply these things.

You're relying on the idea that there is something different about the soulfire fusion when I'm telling you its the same It's just worded differently. You cannot change that premise and then claim its an internal contradiction with my reasoning. Which is what you're doing here

You just got done saying "and even THEN get wrong because soulfire specifically points out..." --> that is the thing that is different.

What premise am I changing?

Soulfire specifically doesn't check the 'can only be applied to weapon crystals' requirement against the solar weapon the crystal augments. But you are arguing that the flare must check this requirement (and fail because a small arm isn't a weapon crystal), despite being affected by weapon crystals in the same way.
I sort of understand your argument--the 'though' clause forces a check against the general fusion requirement, and fails, so the flare won't be affected in the same way.

I don't understand how you don't see the other side of this--that the flare uses the crystal (the though clause doesn't turn this off), the fusion gets checked, the question 'is a small arm incompatible with this fusion' is checked, and the answer is 'no, this small arm is augmented with a weapon crystal and is treated as a solar weapon, it meets all the requirements of this fusion.'

Quote:

3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.", solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so the fusion doesn't work.

The fusion is made to go on a solar weapon. you check legality with the solar weapon. Its fine.

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a.. no wait.

If you cannot put the fusion on a hand cannon, it won't work with solar flare.

Soulfire won't work with a hand cannon

It won't work on solar flare.

If you cannot put the fusion on a melee weapon, it won't work with solar weapon.

Soulfire won't work with a melee weapon.

It won't work on solar weapon.

^ How is your argument regarding flare different from this? You are disregarding the text of how soulfire checks compatibility.

You can put the fusion on a hand cannon, if that hand cannon is treated as a solar weapon. Which it is: "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way"
The only requirements of the soulfire fusion to work with a weapon are:
- The fusion is on a crystal
- The weapon using the crystal is a solar weapon.

The 'though' clause prevents silly, as you would call it, jerk-ass genie arguments like "I can put interposing fusion on flare, because I put it on the crystal and put the crystal in flare, and this would work on solar weapon, and so it gets treated the same way.'
The though clause would prevent this--interposing can only go on melee weapons, so it doesn't work.

Morik the mad wrote:

Soulfire works a little differently than how other fusions work with a solar weapon. Does everyone agree with that?

No. It works the same it just spells out the difference.

I think you are missing something here, or I'm not understanding you.

Is this the understood process for fusions interacting with solar weapon?
1) Put the fusion on a crystal.
2) Put the crystal in the weapon.
3) Check the augmented weapon's properties against the fusion's requirements, if the requirements are met, the fusion works normally. Otherwise the fusion does not have any effect.

If so, consider, say, a tactical fusion on solar weapon.
1) Tactical fusion applied to crystal, fine.
2) Crystal augments weapon, fine.
3) Tactical fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "You can add the tactical fusion only to a ranged weapon", the solar weapon is not a ranged weapon, so the fusion does not have any effect.

(A)
If you do the exact same thing with soulfire, it doesn't work on anything:
1) Soulfire fusion applied to crystal, fine.
2) Crystal augments weapon, fine.
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.", solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so the fusion doesn't work.

This is obviously wrong, and I don't think you are arguing that the above is how you check whether soulfire works on the weapon or not.

BUT, you seem to be arguing that the above IS how you check whether it works on flare.

(B)

Instead, soulfire has a more specific rule overriding the general way to check whether the fusion is active. That more specific rule is "When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion". Rewriting the above steps with this override in mind:
1) Soulfire fusion applied to crystal, fine.
2) Crystal augments weapon, fine.
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion is on a crystal augmenting a solar weapon, so the fusion functions when hitting things with that augmented solar weapon. (Note that the fusion is NOT disabled due to the solar weapon not being a weapon crystal.)

-------------------------------------------------------

The viewpoint that soulfire doesn't work on flare seems to be saying that you use process B when determining whether it works on solar weapon, but use process A when determining whether it works on solar flare.
The argument is something like, flare can't act like a solar weapon augmented by the crystal in this case (so can't be affected by 'When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion'), because the 'though' clause hard stops the fusion from working at all, because a small arm isn't a weapon crystal.

The viewpoint that soulfire does work on flare uses process B on both--flare is treated as if it is a solar weapon augmented by the crystal, there is no other requirement on this fusion that would rule out a small arm that is treated the same as solar weapon regarding crystal augmentation, so the fusion works.

EDIT: Another thought experiment to consider.
If a new manifestation, "Solar bashing stick" were created, which functions like a basic melee weapon, gets some extraneous bonuses in some situations (say, to combat maneuvers) to differentiate it from the advanced-melee-weapon solar weapon, with the text "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar bashing stick in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a basic melee weapon", would you say that soulfire doesn't work on this thing either?

I can see the argument from both sides, kind of like one of those optical illusions that have two different images in it.

Soulfire works a little differently than how other fusions work with a solar weapon. Does everyone agree with that?

With a normal fusion, you apply it to the crystal, augment the weapon with the crystal, and then check the fusion's requirements against the weapon to see if it can use it. Does everyone agree with that?

With soulfire, there is a specific rules exception in the text. Instead of checking the fusions requirements against the weapon (can only be applied to a weapon crystal, a solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so it doesn't work), the only requirement for this fusion is that it is applied to a crystal that is augmenting a solar weapon.

And here is where I think the two sides diverge.

One side says that you do have to do the normal fusion requirement check against flare, see that a small arm is not a weapon crystal, and so it doesn't work.
In other words, something covered by the 'though' (crit|prop|fusion) that says 'this only works on solar weapon' cannot work on solar flare, because a small arm is not a solar weapon. If there were a hypothetical critical hit effect that said "this only works with solar weapon", this viewpoint would say it doesn't work, because a small arm isn't a solar weapon.

The other side is that you apply the same specific rule from soulfire; you don't compare "small arm is not a weapon crystal', just like you don't do that on solar weapon ("a melee weapon is not a weapon crystal"). Solar flare is augmented by the fused crystal, the fusion says it works on solar weapon when it is augmented by the crystal, flare can be augmented by the weapon crystal in the same way as solar weapon can, so it is affected in the same way. By this argument, soulfire is not prohibited from being applied to small arms; it is prohibited from working with things that aren't augmentable by a solarian weapon crystal. A small arm that can be augmented by a solarian weapon crystal is thus compatible with soulfire.
In other words, something (crit|prop|fusion) that says "this only works on solar weapons" would work on flare the same way, so long as that thing didn't have other requirements that exclude a small arm.

The first viewpoint could be summarized as: Flare doesn't get to pretend its a solar weapon for (crit|prop|fusion) that only affect solar weapon, because a small arm isn't a solar weapon.

The second viewpoint could be summarized as: For crit|prop|fusion, flare is treated identically to the solar weapon, with one exception: it is a small arm rather than an advanced melee weapon.

You could argue soulfire's wording makes it compatible with any weapon that can use weapon crystals in the same manner as solar weapons do.
I.e., it is not prohibited from applying to a small arm, so long as that small arm is able to use weapon crystals the same way a solar weapon can.

With the understanding that fusions and solar weapon interact like this:
- Put fusion on a weapon crystal (always allowed)
- When augmenting with that crystal, check if the fusion is compatible with solar weapon. I.e., can it be applied to a melee weapon, can it be applied to a weapon dealing whatever damage type your solar weapon deals, etc. If not, the fusion doesn't work.

Soulfire's text replaces the usual 'is this fusion compatible with a melee weapon dealing <whatever> type of damage' (which would normally exclude soulfire, as a melee weapon is not a weapon crystal), with 'this fusion works in a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal'.

Soulfire's more specific compatibility check should also be used with flare. I.e., soulfire is not excluded from being used on small arms; it is excluded from being used on weapons that cannot be augmented with a weapon crystal. If a small arm can be augmented with a weapon crystal the same way solar weapon can, then that small arm can benefit from soulfire.

If I were to give up some of the mobility feats, what feats would you consider slotting in instead?

Here is what I eventually reached in my mind: You can argue that the intent of that clause is to restrict it to things that can apply to small arms in the same way that it is understood the solar weapon (melee) can only get things that can be applied to melee weapons.

But the way the clause is written goes further. I don't see any reasonable way to argue that a crit effect/weapon property/fusion that said "This can only be applied to a solar weapon" would be applicable to a solar flare, due to the though clause (because a small arm isn't a solar weapon).

Regarding knockdown, there is no text in either the crit description or the graviton crystal that I can see which would prevent its use on a small arm.

Anything other than moving your movespeed does stuff other than moving.
Guarded step lets you ignore one threatened square. I don't see how that language could be read as RAW allowing you to guarded step, but not allowing you to blazing orbit; both give you a side benefit in addition to moving you.

Either way, Glitch step would work with it; it can modify the move your movespeed action, and you can definitely use the move your movespeed action with the haste benefit.

I consider speed pretty useful. Being able to flank/circle behind/etc is useful, especially if you can do it in a single move action.
I feel like situations come up fairly often where extra movement results in being able to target someone you couldn't otherwise, or having a clear shot vs shooting through cover.

The only feat I would swap in would be kip up so I can play with move (or activate plasma sheath/etc), drop prone (swift), fire. Next round stand up (swift), move, fire. Etc.

But in rounds where I want to full attack (with or without haste), I won't have any swift actions to use anyway.

"When making a full attack, a hasted creature can also take a separate move action in order to move. The movement can occur before, after, or between the attacks from the full attack. All movement must occur at the same time."

I guess you could also read it as granting the use of any action that both:
- Costs a move action
and
- Allows you to move

Rather than granting only the 'move your speed' action. Not perfectly clear, but personally I read it as specifically just granting the 'move your speed' action.

It seems pretty clear to me without an official ruling there is enough confusion here that whatever your GM decides for your specific game is what the mechanics the Soulfire Fusion will be under.

That being said I am in the camp of because it can't be applied to a small arm it can't be applied to the weapon as RAW, but RAI is not very clear.

See this post

The technical wording on flare means that by RAW things in those 3 categories (crit effect, weapon property, weapon fusion) which can only be applied to a solar weapon do NOT work on flare, as a solar weapon is not a small arm.

But it appears this was intended to work.

Original wording:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

What it seems the devs intended (my words):
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though when considering compatibility with any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion, treat the flare as a small arm rather than an advanced melee weapon.

From 'actions in combat':
Move actions:
Crawl
Direct or redirect an effect
Draw or sheathe a weapon
Guarded step
Manipulate an item
Move your speed
Reload
Stand up

I read haste as: when you make a full attack, you may also use that specific 'move action to move your speed'.

So you couldn't guarded step. A Solarian couldn't use blazing orbit. Etc.

Hmm, so haste is an enhancement bonus to speed.
If I picked up the haste circuit armor upgrade, it wouldn't stack with speed suspension. (Though the other effects would still work.)

I'm not sure it would be that great though--at the start of combat or on rounds after I use a zenith, I'd probably want to use a move action to re-activate plasma sheath. (And, if I have grav resist, use a move action the round after that to activate it, though I don't need to repeat after zenithing.)
Since haste only lets you move (if I'm reading it right), I wouldn't be able to activate plasma sheath with a move and also do a full attack while hasted.

So if I need a move action for sheath & grav resist, that takes up move actions the first two rounds of combat.
After I zenith, plasma sheath takes up a move action the next round.

So, assuming proportionate revelations (so fully attuned in 3 rounds):
R1: No haste benefit (move action sheath)
R2: no haste benefit (move action grav resist)
R3: no haste benefit (standard action zenith, using move afterward to activate sheath useless as I'm not attuned and it would fall off at the start of my next turn)
R4: no haste benefit (move action sheath)
R5: haste benefits
R6: no haste benefit (standard action zenith)
etc

I.e., it seems the full-attack and still move benefit is only useful once every 3 rounds (except the first 3, where it isn't useful).

The speed boost may still be useful, but since it is an enhancement bonus I can get that with speed suspension.

If I did get disproportionate revelations (no grav resist), it would be useful in 2 out of 4 rounds:
R1: no haste benefit (move action sheath)
R2: haste benefits
R3: haste benefits
R4: no haste benefit (standard action zenith)
R5: no haste benefit (move action sheath)
R6: haste benefits
R7: haste benefits
R8: no haste benefit (standard action zenith)
etc

Bionic knee seems more useful when I don't have defy grav, too. So if I went disproportionate, I may get:
- Bionic knee
- haste circuit

If I did pick up grav resist at some point, it would mean haste is only beneficial in one of the first 4 rounds. (Well, the speed boost is useful in all the rounds where I am moving.)

Since haste circuit is magical, it only gets those 10 charges per day and can't be recharged by normal means, so I'd still get solar acceleration. I think I'd be using 3 haste circuit charges per combat (round 1 activate as a swift, round 4 deactivate as a swift). (I assume it doesn't use a charge in round 4 if I deactivate it? Not quite clear to me.)

With proportionate, I'd get speed suspension & use that armor upgrade slot for something else. I'd get solar acceleration @ lvl 9 and just have distant burst supernova for aoe damage.

EDIT: Also seems to me that blazing orbit doesn't work with haste, as orbit requires spending a move action to activate it (and lets you move your speed as part of that), while haste just lets you spend a move action to move your speed.
One of the things I like about the disproportionate build is getting blazing orbit early; not being able to use it when full attacking with haste makes that a bit less attractive.

I'll probably end up doing the proportionate build.

I will put down equipment goals too I suppose, though I don't want a detailed 'this is the equipment I want' at each character level as that would be tedious.

But generally, I think I want as much base speed as I can get, so I can get where I need to go with just one move action. Base speed will limit how high I can jump, for instance. If I can get 60' base, I could do a 10' move then jump 50 feet up @ dc 25 (with jet dash), grab on to the ceiling or wall I jump to, shoot from there for the turn. (Flat footed & need a climb check to hang on, but with focus on athletics & the halfling & the grav boost bonuses, hopefully that won't be too hard.)

Equipment goals:

Solarian weapon crystals:
- Focus on increasing damage.

Weapon fusions:
- Soulfire fusion (GM says this works with flare at his table)
- Not sure what else.

Augmentations:
- Speed suspension definitely
- Personal upgrades for dex, cha, con (in that order), or int instead of con if I am not having survivability trouble and want more skill points... (I see the int boost gives retroactive skill points, which is nice)
- Vision -- darkvision capacitors look promising
- Not sure what else, haven't browsed them all yet. I'll be focusing on mobility & evasiveness. Things like glass skin look interesting for evasiveness, or nimble soles for the bonus to acrobatic tumbling.

Armor: Staying with light armor with a high enough max dex bonus that I can use my full dex bonus.

Armor upgrades:
- Early, before I have darkvision capacitors, infrared sensors look good.
- Targetting computer looks good
- Force fields
- Not sure what else

Hybrid & magic items:
- Not sure what to get, I haven't browsed through them yet... any suggestions?

Tech items:
- Not sure, need to browse these. Any suggestions?

Does speed suspension not stack with fleet? My naive guess was that if a specific type of bonus (e.g., insight/enchantment/etc) is mentioned, only one of that bonus type applies, but both fleet and speed suspension do not have a bonus type listed, so I was assuming they stack.

Which revelations are you referring to? The only one giving skill bonuses that I picked above is gravity boost, which works unattuned (bigger bonus when attuning grav mode, I miss out on that doubled bonus but the base bonus should always be on).

For the photon-attunement-only build, I gave it some more thought.

Option 1: No disproportionate revelations

2 distant burst
4 gravity boost
6 plasma sheath
8 defy gravity
9 solar acceleration, <any grav won't use>
10 soul furnace
12 grav resist
14 blazing orbit
16 ultimate grav
17 solar incursion, <any grav, won't use>
18 luminescent inquisition
20 burn enchantment

Can swap defy & grav resist if desired.
I figured luminescent/burn enchantment will have more utility in late-game than hypnotic glow. Not sure on that--could always pick it up instead of one of those options.

Feats:

1 weap focus sm arms
3 Divine blessing (Sarenrae)
5 enhanced resistance
7 fleet | jet dash
9 fleet | jet dash
11 mobility
13 nimble moves
15 improved init
17 constant alertness
19 skill synergy (athletics, acrobatics)

Though perhaps with defy gravity in the mix, jet dash isn't needed.

Option 2: Disproportionate

2 distant burst
4 gravity boost
6 plasma sheath
8 blazing orbit
9 solar acceleration, <any grav won't use>
10 soul furnace
12 hypnotic glow
14 curving flare
16 ultimate grav
17 solar incursion, <any grav, won't use>
18 luminescent inquisition
20 burn enchantment

Feats: Same as option 1.

This gets blazing orbit a lot earlier, you get utility from hypnotic glow, curving flare may be useful for hitting targets out of your line of sight (though you only get the 2nd attack if the first hits, and at lvl 13 you are giving up your 3rd attack).
I still picked up ultimate grav for the acrobatics bonus from boost (which should make tumbling pretty successful).

In exchange, you lose out on the bonus to reflex saves from gravitic resist, lose out on the defy grav (though with jet dash & grav boost it won't matter most of the time?), and take 4 rounds to fully attune from lvl 8-19.

I think I prefer option 1. I would consider replacing defy gravity, maybe with gravity surge (unclear whether ultimate grav lets you trip/disarm 2 targets simultaneously with this), though I don't think it would be of much use until ultimate grav for the range boost.

Alternatives to the last two revelations:
- Gravitic reinforcement (decent bonus to all saves by lvl 18 when taken, or just to reflex when in photon mode but still useful)
- Superlative constellation for 3x uses on glow/soul furnace.

I went towards ultimate grav for the grav boost bonus to acrobatics, and to enable crush to be decent (60' range, 2 targets) when obtained at 20.

The other way I was thinking of going would be pure photon attunement.

This build would end up with unbalanced revelations at some levels..

Something like:

Level Revelation Feat
1 weap focus sm arms
2 distant burst
3 Divine blessing (Sarenrae)
4 gravity boost
5 enhanced resistance
6 plasma sheath
7 fleet
8 grav resist
9 stellar acceleration, <any grav won't use> jet dash
10 soul furnace
11 mobility

(Unbalanced revelations from now on.)

12 hypnotic glow
13 nimble moves
14 blazing orbit
15 improved init
16 luminescent inquisition
17 solar incursion, <any grav, won't use> constant alertness
18 ultimate grav
19 skill synergy (athletics, acrobatics)
20 crush

Could instead get crush at 12 & ultimate grav at 16 to stay balanced, leaving two of those photon revelations to be taken at 18 & 20.

If going this route, I'd probably fit Divine Blessing (Sarenrae) into feats early, to help mitigate fire resist/etc. (Though leaving sheath off and just dealing cold dmg with the flare also works; at lvl 9+ can use solar acceleration as zenith. Pre 9 you won't have a zenith that works well against fire-resist enemies.)

Not sure what I'd replace ultimate grav/crush with... I think the bonus to acrobatics makes tumbling more likely to succeed by a good bit, which is nice. I figured once I have that, may as well pick up a 2x range, 2x targets crush ability for disrupting hard enemies.

Here is what I have so far:

Race: Halfling
Theme: Pilot

Stats @ lvl 1:
str 8
dex 18
con 11
int 10
wis 10
cha 16

Revelations:
2 plasma sheath
4 gravity boost
6 gravity pulse | blazing orbit
8 gravity pulse | blazing orbit
9 stellar acceleration, nebula storm
10 debris field
12 soul furnace
14 gravitic shield
16 glow of life
17 constellation blast, gravitic calling
18 ultimate grav
20 crush

- No defy grav--rely on jet packs when actual flight is needed, otherwise jet dash lets you jump 2x as high, should be sufficient for battlefield positioning? (Alternatively, drop gravity pulse since it gives 2 saves if you are pushing them off a cliff/etc, and grab defy gravity or agile wavelengths instead.)

Feats:
1 weap focus sm arms
3 fleet
5 enhanced resistance
7 jet dash
9 nimble moves
11 mobility
13 kasathan battle dance
15 improved init
17 constant alertness
19 indirect retreat? (not having to run in a straight line)

- I like the idea of jet dash + reasonably good base move speed + grav boost; can do things like run up a 300' building at lvl 7 (50' base, with fleet & speed suspension) with no athletics check needed.

Is this mobility overkill?

Skills:
Acrobatics for tumbling, athletics for maneuvering/climbing/etc, some stealth for scouting, and diplomacy/intimidate. (Max acrobatics & athletics, can give up some stealth & diplo/intim for minimal ranks in a few other skills as desired. Though maybe that much athletics won't actually be needed, with the other bonuses.)

General strategy:

Out of combat: Scouting (stealth & crazy mobility), social stuff (cha bonus, ranks in diplo/intimidate). Fitting hypnotic glow into the build would be nice for out of combat utility... (and also sometimes about-to-combat utility).

Combat:
Pre lvl 10:
- Generally attune photon. Use plasma sheath if enemies aren't fire resistant. (Use a cold dmg flare so without sheath you can deal with fire resist.) Use blazing orbit when it will help. Acrobatics for tumbling away (halfling bonus + class skill + dex bonus is helpful), grav boost can help position in places enemies can't get to easily, especially after lvl 6 (grav boost gives spider climb but with running allowed) and jet dash (6x speed run, no flat footed), and fleet to boost base speed. Get speed suspension when able to boost this further.

- If the terrain has a lot of stuff that would be bad to be moved into (falls, damaging terrain, etc), once grav pulse is attained, attune graviton & use that to force enemies off cliffs/onto bad terrain/etc. (Though I notice it gives 2 saves; one to resist moving at all, and a second to resist moving into bad stuff...)
- Could replace blazing orbit with distant burst; the only thing in this build it would affect is supernova. Up to 40 feet away is a big boost. I opted not to go this route--I figured it is most useful in early levels then falls off as more zeniths open up.

Post 10:
- When safe to do so, attune photon & use pre-lvl-10 strategy, building to solar acceleration zenith generally.

- If not feeling safe to do so, can position in all sorts of places (e.g., hanging off the wall too high up to melee attack) with debris field making it hard to hit you. Once grav shield is in play that would more than compensate for flat footed. (If there are platforms or something that enemy melee can't get to you on, that is better, but even if there aren't, you can hang off a wall and probably be ok.) Should succeed on the athletics check to climb, with halfling bonus, grav boost of 2/3 level bonus (attuned grav), and putting ranks into athletics.

- Grav boost from photon mode can be useful for clutch repositions, but really it is for when attuning graviton mode, all attacks while attuned will have gravitation 20 ft.

- If unable to maneuver (small, flat battlefield with no walls that can be climbed), debris field & grav shield should still provide decent defenses, while gravity pulse can help keep melee enemies away.

Thoughts/advice?

I'm confused--Soul Furnace has the language "When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can also use this revelation to...", and in the other thread you said this is a separate thing, you either choose the first part (remove affliction), or the second part (remove condition), paying the same cost either way (move action & 1 RP).

This is worded "When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can use this revelation to...", but it is an added bonus, not a replacement here?

Reading it again it looks to me like you can:
- always spend a move, get a +4 bonus to stealth that lasts until you leave graviton

- and separately (whether you've activated that bonus or not), while you are attuned to graviton, you can make a normal stealth check per the usual skill rules (use a move action, take a penalty if you move too far, you can stay where you are if you like), without cover or concealment needed. You lose the HiPS part if you attack/force someone to make a save/don't make another successful stealth check at the start of your next turn.

One more question: When using stealth warp, you always spend a move action. Does this always provide +4 stealth, even if you are using the attuned/fully attuned benefit of being able to stealth in plain sight?

Or do you choose either the +4 bonus, OR the ability to hide in plain sight?

For hiding in plain sight, you roll the stealth check when you use the move action, but don't actually get to move, right? So move action to get the 'hide in plain sight' benefit, and another move action to get away? Does that second move action require another stealth check (with penalty for moving over half your speed, if applicable)?

Ah, I see your point--the spell itself doesn't have an immobilize effect, just the move/lift effect (as a move action), so I see there is some fuzziness around whether immobilize just requires activating the spell, or also requires a move action.

theelcorspectre wrote:

HammerJack wrote:

theelcorspectre wrote:

As a person who has to wait until the 13th to look at the COM, what does Double Tap do, and does it specifically work with the Solarians new Solar Flare manifestation?

Double tap uses 2 shots to get a +1 to hit and full level specialization. A solarian would only gain the +1 to hit from that, with a solar flare that already has full level specialization.

So it’s probably not worth it for Solar Flare Solarians. Still though, that sounds like a great feat.

It's redundant for solar flare solarians. They don't get the +1 to hit, but they can full attack.

Wait, why don't they get the +1 to hit? (I understand it wouldn't do anything for damage, as flare already gets full specialization damage, and I understand it wouldn't work with a full action attack.)

Also, anyone know how it interacts with plasma sheath and curving flare?

"This attack cannot benefit from the boost, guided, or variant boost weapon special properties, or any other ability or effect that is a move action and alters the effect of your attack or damage. "

It sounds to me like plamsa sheath would NOT work with double tap, as sheath is a move action that affects your damage.

I think curving flare would work ok? It isn't altering the attack or damage of the double tap shot, it is a separate attack that can be triggered by hitting with double tap?

Overall though it does sound not very good for a solar flare; no plasma sheath damage allowed. Maybe with curving flare it is not completely terrible in that you can make a +1 boosted normal attack with double tap, and then get a 2nd attack with curving flare, but the loss of plasma sheath damage hurts.

You must use a standard action to activate it and force someone to save. If they fail, they would be immobilized. It would not provoke an attack of opportunity because it's a Supernatural ability, and neither using Supernatural abilities nor concentrating (on anything, including regular spells or SLAs) triggers an attack of opportunity.

There are no actual rules for interrupting a concentration duration spell by inflicting damage, either. Not spending the standard action to maintain it is the only published way to "break" concentration as a spell duration. (Concentration on the initial casting of a spell, which doesn't apply to a Su ability, is different.)

You do need to spend a separate move action if you want to move/lift the creature, instead of holding it immobile. Otherwise you can concentrate to sustain as a standard action and run around or do something else with your move action while they are stuck until they save.

"you can use the psychokinetic hand ability of your gravity hold to immobilize, lift, or move a Medium or smaller creature."

The language for immobilize seems to be the same as for lifting or moving--how is it that you do not need to use a move action to do so for immobilize?

Also, if you are only using the first part of this ability, does that just require a move action, or do you first have to activate the ability (standard action) in order to unlock the ability to spend a move action to lift/move non-creature objects around?

Interestingly, supernova doesn't indicate that you are immune to the effect... though I think it would be a bad call to rule that you aren't immune to the damage.

I don't think you can extend this assumed self-immunity to a mount though.

Psychokinetic Hand

Casting Time 1 standard action
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one unattended object of no more than 10 lbs. or 1 bulk
Duration concentration
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
You point your finger at the target object, gaining the ability to lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range. You can’t perform complex operations, such as firing a gun or using a computer, but you can shut a mechanical door or lid and work simple buttons to open or close automated doors or trigger an alarm.

Gravity Hold

This revelation allows you to move objects at a distance as per psychokinetic hand (see page 370).

When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can use the psychokinetic hand ability of your gravity hold to immobilize, lift, or move a Medium or smaller creature. The creature can attempt a Fortitude save to negate the effect. While under this effect, the target creature cannot move, but can take any other normal actions. This ability follows all of the restrictions of the spell other than the weight limit, but you can’t lift a creature higher than 5 feet off the ground. When you spend a standard action concentrating to maintain the gravity hold, the target can attempt a new save to end the effect. Once a creature successfully saves against this ability, it becomes immune to further uses of this revelation for 24 hours.

I want to verify my understanding of how this works. I think it works like this:

Is that correct?

Or does "allows you to move objects at a distance as per psychokinetic hand" mean that you are counted as always having the spell active, can spend move actions at any time to move stuff around, and only need to spend standard actions if using the 2nd portion of the ability to lift a creature and maintain that lift for more than one round?
E.g., combat starts, turn 1 you attune graviton mode and lift a creature by spending a move action. You then spend your standard action attacking. At the start of your next turn, the creature is freed unless you spend a standard action. If at any time you lose concentration, the creature is freed.

Actually, after thinking about this more, I agree with you.

Soulfire works with solar weapon because it specifically says it does, which works around the issue of soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon.

Solar flare can be augmented by the fused crystal, but cannot use the fusion as the though clause excludes it.

I.e., #1 in my post above is not correct.

The following thought experiment got me to this conclusion:
Pretend solar weapon and flare had item levels and could have fusions applied directly.
If a fusion said "this fusion can only be applied to a solar weapon", it would indeed exclude solar flare due to the though clause.

Though I think the intent is that solar flare should work with that fusion, it clearly does not by RAW.

MorikTheMad wrote:

Wait, are you arguing that "can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal" means "can't be applied to a small arm", but does NOT mean "can't be applied to a melee weapon"?

No.

Please stop trying to pick every answer apart for a nonsensical contradictory result. This is the 5th or 6th one that hasn't been said, hinted, or implied by anything I've said but that you've leaped on as if you'd found a flaw.

What I am saying is not complicated. It is very plain, it is very straightforward. You are darting from what is written through 12 layers of implication like a literature major that hasn't slept in a week.

Dude, I said "An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon)" and you said "Soulfire does not have that restriction."

Perhaps I wasn't clear, or you misread my statement; I was not saying soulfire has a restriction that it can only go on melee weapons. I was saying soulfire has a restriction that it cannot be applied to melee weapons.

Your argument is: solar flare cannot use fusions which cannot be applied to a small arm.
A small arm cannot gain soulfire because soulfire can only go on a weapon crystal.
Solar flare cannot gain soulfire.

My argument is:

1) You can say the exact same thing about solar weapon, and arrive at an absurd conclusion:
Solar weapon cannot use fusions which cannot be applied to a melee weapon.
A melee weapon cannot gain soulfire because soulfire can only go on a weapon crystal.
Solar weapon cannot use soulfire.

2) So, since solar weapon can in fact use soulfire, what is the reason it can do so?
I am arguing that the reason is that soulfire's text is a specific exception, for weapons augmented with the fused crystal, to the general rule that a weapon cannot use fusions which can't be applied to that weapon type.

Do you disagree with this? If so, what is your explanation of why soulfire works on a solar weapon?

3) Things that are not a solar weapon cannot use things that apply only to solar weapons. (Yes, I'm aware this is a tautology.)

4)
The first part of the sentence: "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way", is establishing an exception to 3.

5) The second part of that sentence, "though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.", is putting a limitation on the exception established in 4, re-establishing the general rule that a weapon cannot use things that don't work with that weapon type.

This language is necessary to prevent a strict reading of the first sentence from leading to absurdity. I.e., preventing non-solarian class features that require a melee weapon type (such as a weapon crystal granting reach, or a fusion that can only be applied to melee weapons) from being usable by flare.

6) The soulfire exception in 2 above is more specific than that though statement.

If your disagreement is with #6, then I do understand your argument, I just disagree with it.
If your disagreement is with #1-#5, then I do not understand your argument; can you clarify?

The only threads I could find on this were several years old. (I'm not sure if this community prefers a new thread over a necro in this case; if not let me know & I'll necro next time.)

Was a consensus reached on whether you can benefit from a revelation's "while attuned..." bonuses while you are attuned to the opposite mode?

E.g., if you are attuned to graviton mode, does plasma sheath provide the extra fire damage equal to half your level? (And then end after one round as you aren't in photon mode.)

Or do attunement bonuses only work when the mode you are attuned to matches the mode of the revelation?

My reading is that you only get the bonus if you are in the appropriate mode:

Some of your stellar revelations are graviton powers and get stronger if you’re graviton-attuned....

Some of your stellar revelations are photon powers and get stronger if you’re photon-attuned...

I wanted to double check my understanding as the old threads seemed uncertain, since the actual revelation descriptions (aside from zenith) generally just say "attuned or fully attuned". Given that there hasn't been discussion on this in years, I'm guessing there is a general consensus on this?

Quote:

but does not do any such checking that the thing works with a melee weapon.

I am absolutely NOT saying that and it should be absolutely clear that I am not saying that. Otherwise I wouldn't have the tactical example above.

I am saying you do not check for legality when you put the enchantment on the crystal you DO check for legality when you use the solar manifestation

I don't disagree with any of that.

Tactical CAN be applied to a crystal and works with a pistol so it can work with the solar flare

Tactical can be a applied to a crystal but will not WORK if you're using the solar weapon light saber.

I don't disagree with any of that.

Quote:

An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon)

Soulfire does not have that restriction.

Wait, are you arguing that "can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal" means "can't be applied to a small arm", but does NOT mean "can't be applied to a melee weapon"?

If you are not saying that, I do not understand what you mean by "does not have that restriction".

From an earlier post of yours:

Soulfire does not apply to small arms.

Soulfire also does not apply to melee weapons.

Quote:

should work the same way for flare (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a small arm), because this exception is a more specific rule overriding the general rule that you cannot use fusions that aren't applicable to your weapon type.

No.

The "though" makes the small arms only grammatically the more specific case.

Trying to read the rules the other way gets you the words saying absolutely nothing. Theres no reason for them to be there, at all.

Soulfire may be an intended exception but it does not work by whats written.

I don't understand what you mean by "only grammatically the more specific case".

I am claiming that the specificity of "the flare cannot gain fusions that can't be applied to a small arm" (A) is at the same level of specificity as the implicit "the solar weapon can't get fusions that can't be applied to a melee weapon" (B).

I.e., if soulfire (C) can override B for the solar melee weapon because C is a more specific rule than B, then C can also override A for the same reason.

Are you saying you read the flare rule about not gaining fusions that can't go on small arms as being a more specific rule than the general rule that weapons cannot gain fusions that can't go on their weapon type, AND as a more specific rule than whatever special exception we assume to allow soulfire to be used on a solar melee weapon?

To summarize my confusion with interpretations that it doesn't work:

Solar weapon has an implicit rule that you cannot gain crit effects/weapon properties/fusions that can't be applied to a melee weapon. (Just as all weapons have this implicit rule.)

Solar flare has an explicit rule stating the same. Which, if it weren't there, would allow someone to claim that by RAW, the flare can use melee-only things since it affects the flare 'in the same way' as the solar weapon.

I.e., they both have this rule.

Soulfire is an exception to this rule; it can work on anything that can be augmented by the crystal it is fused to. (If it weren't an exception, it wouldn't work on solar weapon.)

The only way that it would work on the melee solar weapon, but NOT work on the flare, is if you are reading the explicit flare rule as a more specific rule (so NOT overridden by the soulfire exception to weapon-type compatibility check), and yet maintaining that the implicit rule on solar weapon is a more general rule (so does get overridden by the soulfire exception).

I don't understand how you can classify the implicit solar weapon rule as more general than soulfire fusion's exception, but classify the explicit solar flare rule as more specific than the soulfire fusion's exception.

Thanks, makes sense.

Doesn't the "you can also" indicate that it is in addition to, not instead of, the normal effects?

E.g., compare to the language of Flare:

As a move action, you can shed light in a 30-foot radius for 1 minute. You choose dim, normal, or bright light each time you activate this revelation. As a standard action, you can create a flash of brilliant light, forcing one creature within 30 feet to succeed at a Reflex save or be blinded for 1 round. Once you’ve targeted a creature with flare, you can’t target it with this revelation again for 10 minutes. Blind or sightless creatures are not affected by this use of this revelation.

When you create a flash of light as a standard action and you are attuned or fully attuned, you can instead choose to make all enemies within range dazzled for 1 round (no save).

I agree it is clear you can't end multiple afflictions, or multiple conditions. It isn't clear to me that you can't end one affliction and also (if attuned) one condition.

Right, but stealth warp doesn't actually grant you total concealment. It says that if you were being directly observed, the enemy is now 'aware of your location' until you stealth away to cover/concealment.

The 'aware of your location' rules say you can attack, but treat the target of the attack as if they have total concealment.

Does that mean an opponent who is only 'aware of your location', but who you do not have concealment/total concealment from, cannot make an opportunity attack against you?
Or does it mean that they can, but will suffer from a 50% miss chance because they treat you as if you have total concealment?

In other words, solar weapon has an implicit "you can't get crit effects/weapon properties/fusions that can't be applied to a melee weapon".
The exception that soulfire can work in solar weapons would override this general rule. I don't see how it is justified to say the soulfire exception wouldn't also override the same (explicit) rule for flare.

I think we are talking past each other a bit here...

I am not reading a hypertechnical gotcha into the answer.
I am not seeking a particular answer and trying to corkscrew my way into it.
I flipped my belief about whether this is legal by RAW several times while researching this prior to participating in this thread.

I am actually arguing in good faith here--I genuinely do not understand your position.

While I am not sure the following is supported by RAW, I am fine with this assumption:

I have a pretty shiny rock solar crystal. I put a Knockdown enchantment on it.

Check legality: can the fusion go on the pretty shiny rock. Yes.

By RAW, knockdown can only go on weapons that deal bludgeoning dmg. This particular shiny rock does not deal bludgeoning dmg. But it is still legal to apply it to. It isn't clear to me that this works by RAW, but I agree it is a reasonable assumption given dev feedback that fusions can be put on crystals.

I have a pretty shiny rock solar crystal. I put a Knockdown enchantment on it.

Check legality: can the fusion go on the pretty shiny rock. Yes.

WhackWhack the melee solarion with a mallet weapon that deals bludgeoning damage picks it up

Can he gain knockdown. Yes. He has a solar mallet. it deals bludgeoning damage.

SliceSlice the melee solarion with a solar saber picks up the exact same pretty shiny rock. He does slashing damage. Can he gain knockdown?

No. His solar weapon deals slashing damage, it doesn't work.

PewPew the solar flare solarion picks it up. Does it work? not unless he someone makes his solar flare do bludgeoning damage.

I do not disagree with any of the examples you gave in your prior post--I agree all of that is correct.

The process for applying a fusion seems to be:
- Put it on a crystal, always legal (unless specific text that it can't go on a crystal).
- Put the crystal in a weapon capable of being augmented with said crystal.
- Check that any fusions on the crystal are compatible with the augmented weapon. If they are, they work. If they aren't, they don't work.

(I think you agree that is the process--let me know if I am mistaken in this belief.)

Soulfire: Can it go on the pretty shiny rock? Yes.

WhackWhack the melee solarian with a solar weapon class feature puts the shiny rock into it.

Does soulfire function in this weapon?
EITHER:
- No, because a melee weapon is not a shiny rock
OR
- Yes, because it works in any weapon that can accept the shiny rock.

My impression is that you see this:
"Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."

As saying, in essense: Solar flare works with everything that affects solar weapons, except things that can't be applied to a small arm.

And, you seem to be saying that solar weapon can also work with anything that affects solar weapons (yes, this is a tautology), but does not do any such checking that the thing works with a melee weapon.
(But I don't think you actually hold this position--I think you would say you cannot apply a ranged-only fusion to a solar weapon.)

I see that sentence as saying, in essence: You don't get to pretend this is a melee weapon for these effects--just like solar weapon cannot gain a fusion that can't affect melee weapons, a solar flare cannot gain a fusion that can't affect small arms.

An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon), should work the same way for flare (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a small arm), because this exception is a more specific rule overriding the general rule that you cannot use fusions that aren't applicable to your weapon type.

The only way soulfire would work on solar weapon and not on solar flare is if the 'though' clause is read not as re-asserting the general rule about weapon type compatibility, but as specifically adding a limitation to solar flare that does not have an analogue for solar weapon. Such a reading just doesn't make sense to me--solar weapon CANNOT gain weapon fusions which can't be applied to melee weapons.

I think the first. It's an additional possible use, but with the same costs and limitations as the unattuned option.

Just to make sure I understand you--you mean that this effect can be used in addition to, not instead of, the saving throw to remove an affliction?

Ascalaphus wrote:

We've gone over this several times already in this thread and rehashing that would just be tedious. I'm not convinced that it forbids it, and you are, and neither of us has convinced the other. I think that's enough to conclude that it doesn't "clearly" forbid it :)

This is why we need a FAQ, and I encourage everyone to click the FAQ button if they haven't already. If the AR team has access to discussions that could get a developer to FAQ this, I would further recommend you exercise those and implore them to FAQ this.

I'm convinced the text does clearly forbid it, so I'm not going to allow it in any of the SFS games I run. If you, and others, are convinced the text doesn't, you're going to allow it in the SFS games you run. A player that plays in both of our games is going to have a drastically different experience. That isn't healthy for OP in general, and makes GM's that honestly feel like they're playing fairly and by the rules look like the 'bad guys' taking away players toys. That isn't fun for anyone. If it's allowed, it needs to be clearly and emphatically allowed.

Thanks I didn't know about the FAQ button.

This is my main concern--I am new to starfinder. I was introduced to it by a GM who runs SFS games. I asked him if soulfire works on solar flare, and he quoted both the solar flare section (with the 'though' statement included), and the soulfire text, and said "it clearly works by RAW". So it is allowed in his games.

What happens to this character if I want to use it in a session with a different GM who has the opposite reading? I guess worst case, I just pretend it is a non-functional fusion that is taking up space towards my fusion level limit? (Better case: Replace with equivalent level of permitted fusions for the session?)

Morik the mad wrote:

Are you claiming that the solar weapon does not check the fusion application requirements of fusions that are on the crystal, because it is the same thing as the crystal?

No.

The fusion needs to be able to go on the crystal (as far as I know, there's technically no reason any fusion can't BE PUT on the crystal)

In order to WORK the fusion needs to be able to work with whatever the crystal is doing.

Quote:

So I can put a knockdown fusion on a crystal (because any fusion can go on a crystal?), and then use that crystal in the solar weapon, and this works even if the solar weapon does not deal bludgeoning damage?

Yes, you can put knockdown on a crystal

No, that property will not work unless you make your solar weapon bludgeoning (i think there's something that does this)

You just pick every level

Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it. At 1st level, choose whether your Solar weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.

Quote:

What is special about soulfire that bypasses this?

Even ignoring common sense of what a fusion on a crystal does, this part.

When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion

Do you agree with the following statement:

If you do agree, I do not understand why you think there is a difference between saying "soulfire can not be applied to a small arm, so it cannot work on solar flare" and "soulfire can not be applied to a melee weapon, so it cannot work on solar weapon".

Could you use this hypothetical fusion on a solar weapon? (My answer is 'no'.)
"Splitting fusion. This fusion may only be applied to small arms. When you make an attack with this weapon, you may choose to attack two targets instead of one target. If you do so, make one damage roll. Each target (if hit) takes half of the damage (rounded down)."

Why can't you use it on a solar weapon? Because a solar weapon is not a small arm.

What is your justification for claiming that by common sense, solar weapon does not check soulfire's application condition (which I agree with), but solar flare DOES check it?
This is the part of your argument I don't understand.

Morik the mad wrote:

A solar weapon cannot gain the benefit of a fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon. Do you agree with this statement?

If so, what is your rationale for why soulfire is able to work on a solar melee weapon?

Because the argument you're relying draws a distinction between the solar weapon and the crystal is hypertechnical bunk that the existence of soulfire as well as developer clarification refute.

Soulfire works on the solar melee weapon because the weapon and the crystal are the same thing. The crystal is the weapon, the weapon is the crystal.

Umm, what?

Are you claiming that the solar weapon does not check the fusion application requirements of fusions that are on the crystal, because it is the same thing as the crystal?

So I can put a knockdown fusion on a crystal (because any fusion can go on a crystal?), and then use that crystal in the solar weapon, and this works even if the solar weapon does not deal bludgeoning damage?

No, the solar weapon checks fusion requirements.
Can a solar weapon gain a fusion that cannot be applied to an advanced melee weapon? --> NO, it cannot.

What is special about soulfire that bypasses this?

Stealth warp says:
"When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can use this revelation to reduce your sensory output so much that you can attempt a Stealth check even when you’re directly observed and lack cover or a distraction. You are not invisible, simply difficult to see clearly, and if a creature was observing you prior to your Stealth check, it remains aware of your location until you successfully reach cover or concealment."

Aware of location says:
"When you are aware of a creature’s location, you know exactly where the creature is located, but you still can’t observe the creature with a precise sense such as vision. Generally, this occurs because you have blindsense, or because the creature is hidden but you have succeeded at a Perception check to pinpoint the creature with an imprecise sense. You must at least be aware of a creature’s location in order to directly attack it, though it is considered to have total concealment from you (see page 253). It is, however, subject to area effects affecting that location."

If I am adjacent to an opponent (so they are observing me), and use stealth via Stealth Warp. If I move away, I provoke an opportunity attack. Am I considered to have total concealment from this opportunity attack?

Morikthemad wrote:

I'm not sure which thing you are referring to as "common sense"--that a solar flare is treated as a small arm for fusions?

Yes.

Quote:

That same common sense applies to solar weapon--it is treated as an advanced melee weapon for fusions.

This is not a new rule specific to flare. Every weapon follows this rule.

So why are they stating this here?

To spell it out and make it clear because common sense isn't common and isn't always applicable to the game. Without that rule being stated you can conclude, but don't KNOW, that a solar flare takes fusions as if it were a small arm.

So: Please explain how soulfire fusion is able to work on a solar melee weapon.

Any argument that you cannot gain the benefit of soulfire fusion on a flare, because a flare is a small arm, not a solarian weapon crystal, also applies to a solar weapon.

A solar weapon cannot gain the benefit of a fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon. Do you agree with this statement?

If so, what is your rationale for why soulfire is able to work on a solar melee weapon?

Morikthemad wrote:

Quote:

"Unless there is specific text stating otherwise, a weapon can't gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to its weapon type."

The problem with applying it to this situation is

What the heck kind of weapon is a solar flare?

If the rule is "a solar flare is a small arm" then it can't get soulfire, because soulfire won't go on a small arm.

This exact same argument applies to the solar melee weapon.

If there was no rule there, there would be no guidance on what kind of fusions would or would not make sense on a solar flare.

Is your position that the lack of such a statement on solar melee weapon means that you can put any fusion you like on the solar melee weapon, regardless of the fusion's requirements?

The idea that it CAN"T possibly be spelling out something that's common sense in order to make a new rule and MUST simply be restating a rule is really really weird.

I'm not sure which thing you are referring to as "common sense"--that a solar flare is treated as a small arm for fusions? That same common sense applies to solar weapon--it is treated as an advanced melee weapon for fusions.

So why are they stating this here? Because in the prior sentence they stated that a solar flare can act as a melee weapon when seeing if it can use a solarian class feature that is specific to melee weapons.

They are clarifying that you cannot have it act as a melee weapon for the purposes of fusions/properties that you get via a thing that affects solar weapons.

I do not think it is 'weird' to have written that there--without that language, "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way" would mean that a weapon crystal granting reach (which would work on a solar weapon) affects the flare in the same way.

Morikthemad wrote:

The argument that the 'though...' clause is a more specific rule preventing the solar flare from meeting the soulfire fusion's application requirement is incorrect. That 'though' clause is not adding a new rule. That rule already exists for every weapon in the game.

This is just all sorts of wrong.

weapon special property that cannot be applied to a small arm: reach

Only melee weapons can have the reach special property. Wielding a weapon with reach gives you 10 feet of reach for attacks with that weapon. See Reach and Threatened Squares for more information.

critical hit effect that cannot be applied to a small arm

This is currently a nullset AFAIK

or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm

interposing, throwing, hindering....

I do not understand your post.

Are you saying that there is NOT a general rule, that a weapon cannot gain crit effects, weapon properties, or fusions that cannot be applied to its weapon type?

I am not saying that reach works on solar flare. It does not, because of the general rule that a weapon cannot gain weapon properties that cannot be applied to its weapon type. A solar flare is a small arm. Reach can only be applied to melee weapons. You cannot apply reach to solar flare.

What I am saying is that soul fusions's requirements cannot be met by the solar weapon, because the solar weapon isn't a crystal. So there must be something special about this requirement that soulfire only be applied to a weapon crystal. I.e., this particular fusion's requirements are a more specific rule that must allow a weapon augmented with the crystal to meet the requirements of the fusion.
If that isn't the case, soulfire cannot work with anything, because no solar weapon (or solar flare, or hypothetical solar boomerang, etc) is a solarian weapon crystal.

My argument is that the 'though' clause is NOT a more specific rule than the specific rule for how soulfire fusion works. That though clause is a clarification that the general rule of weapons only being able to gain fusions that can be applied to their weapon type applies to effects gained from things other than solarian class features (where the flare does get to pretend its a melee weapon).

Can you explain your justification for how soulfire is able to work with a solar melee weapon?

"You can stoke the internal energy of your entire physiology, allowing you to boost your life processes. As a move action, you can spend 1 Resolve Point. If you are suffering from an affliction (a curse, disease, drug or poison), you can immediately attempt an additional saving throw at the affliction’s normal save DC. If you succeed at this saving throw, the affliction ends (regardless of how many successful saving throws it normally takes to end the affliction). Once you have used this revelation, you can’t use it again until the next time you regain Stamina Points after a 10-minute rest.

When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can also use this revelation to end any one of the following conditions you have: bleeding, blinded, burning, cowering, dazzled, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, panicked, shaken, or sickened."

For that 2nd paragraph, how does it work?
Do you spend a resolve, save against an affliction (if you have any), end one of the conditions listed in the 2nd paragraph, and then cannot use this revelation again until 10 min rest?

Or is the 2nd paragraph a separate activation; you use a move action (and a resolve point?), and just remove one of the conditions listed in the 2nd paragraph, but do not get to save against an affliction? (And then cannot use the revelation again until 10 min rest?)