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Actually, after thinking about this more, I agree with you.
Soulfire works with solar weapon because it specifically says it does, which works around the issue of soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon.
Solar flare can be augmented by the fused crystal, but cannot use the fusion as the though clause excludes it.
I.e., #1 in my post above is not correct.
The following thought experiment got me to this conclusion:
Pretend solar weapon and flare had item levels and could have fusions applied directly.
If a fusion said "this fusion can only be applied to a solar weapon", it would indeed exclude solar flare due to the though clause.Though I think the intent is that solar flare should work with that fusion, it clearly does not by RAW.
...Somebody spent max ranks in acrobatics. *Joke*
In the long run I want this to work on all solar weapons. But it says
Soulfire wrote:
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.
In addition to your strength bonus.
In addition to your strength bonus.
That means it can only apply to melee solar weapons. Not even looking and lawyering the first part but in context of the last statement.
In the long run I want this to work on all solar weapons. But it says
Soulfire wrote:
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.In addition to your strength bonus.
In addition to your strength bonus.That means it can only apply to melee solar weapons. Not even looking and lawyering the first part but in context of the last statement.
I guess I should put it this way, if there were any questions about the intention of Soulfire the last sentence removes all doubt that Soulfire is to be used in melee only.
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We've had a statement from the author that Solar Flare was intended to work with Soulfire. But due to a wording snafu, technically maybe it doesn't.
The only real question is whether the designer thought the same thing as the author (and also didn't catch the snafu), or whether the designer did notice the snafu but misunderstood the author's intent and thought it wasn't supposed to work together.
The only statement about intent that we've had was that of the author. The designer has said nothing to contradict it.
The only statement about intent that we've had was that of the author. The designer has said nothing to contradict it.
Designers chime in after a longer process and then not always. I don't think you can read too much into an absence of evidence on that front.
The intent may have been going for -stuff that goes on the pew pew solar flare has to make sense for a finger laser- , but I cannot work through the words that are there in any way except to exclude soulfire.
Also, I think in theory a solar flare solarion with soulfire runs neck and neck with a ranged soldier, but in practice the free, always fully upgraded solar flare is pretty far ahead. But my sense of class balance isn't very good evidence either.
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Designers chime in after a longer process and then not always. I don't think you can read too much into an absence of evidence on that front.The only statement about intent that we've had was that of the author. The designer has said nothing to contradict it.
Yeah, but Xenocrat is doing the reverse:
This is very strange. Notwithstanding the inability of many people to understand it, the language as published clearly does forbid soulfire to work with a solar flare. It's quite possible the developer reviewing the turnover thought about the soulfire issue, correctly interpreted the text, and accepted that's what he wanted.
I think that's unreasonable. In the absence of the designer chiming in, the author is the best authority.
The assumption that the designers always know what they're doing and never misread something doesn't really hold up, if you look at past books and errata discussions.
Xenocrat's theory that the designer saw the subtlety in the RAW, decided it meant exactly what it meant, but didn't realize that wasn't what the author meant, and the published the entire text without changes to make it more explicit - I think that's a bit too much of a conspiracy theory.
I think it's much more reasonable that the subtleties of exactly how Soulfire is formulated (which works unlike any other fusion) just slipped by. Because this really is a problem most people don't notice until they go over the sentence with a microscope looking for problems.
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Your problem is that you don’t understand here is no subtlety in the rule. It doesn’t allow Soul Fire. I don’t know if it’s the failure of people to learn how to diagram sentences in high school or take formal logic in college (I got a 100), but it’s not unclear or ambiguous. It’s only motivation and some degree of incompetence at reading comprehension that is confusing people.
I assume the developer wasn’t incompetent. I’m open to a simple mistake on a quick read through, but I’d need the developer to say that’s what happened.
English language is always ambiguous.
I see this as a problem with the wording of Soulfire. Does 'solar weapon' mean specifically the Solar Weapon manifestation type, or does it mean any Solar Manifestation that is able to do damage?
Soulfire was added first, in Armory. At that time Solar Weapon manifestation was the only manifestation type that did damage and was the only manifestation type that could be affected by a Solar Weapon Crystal with a Soulfire fusion.
When Solar Flare was created, they tried to get Solar Weapon Crystals to also be able to affect the Solar Flare. Hence the rules text 'Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way'.
So now we have an overloading of terms. 'Solar Weapon' is both a specific type of Solar Manifestation (as seen in the class description for Solarian), and a generic term for any Solar Manifestation types that deal damage (RAI from Solarian Weapon Crystals and the Solar Flare manifestation, and used by the Soulfire Fusion).
The concession from MorikTheMad at the top of this page is due only to the argument that Soulfire can only affect Solar Weapons because the text of Soulfire specifically state that it does so. But the text of the rules for Solar Flare says that Solar Weapon Crystals can affect them too. So if a Soulfire-augmented Solar Weapon Crystal is able to affect a Solar Weapon manifestation, why wouldn't it be able to also affect a Solar Flare manifestation? The only reason to say that it doesn't seems to be that Soulfire specifically says 'When you hit a target with a solar weapon...'.
Is that actually intended to be specific to just the Solar Weapon manifestation? At the time that the Soulfire rule was written, Solar Weapon manifestation was the only one that did any damage. Now we have three.
Or is it instead that the rule for Soulfire should include any Solar Manifestation that is able to do damage? Or maybe just the Solar Manifestations that duplicate the effects of other weapon types (thus excluding Solar Shield)?
So yes, I think that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare. And with Solar Shield for that matter.
And yes, I think I am doing a fine job of parsing out the English language, thank you very much.
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Also,
Shouldn't the Solar Weapon manifestation type also say that 'it can't gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon'? It probably would if Solar Weapon Crystals, Soulfire, and Solar Flare all existed at the time Solar Weapon was written.
So yes, I think that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare. And with Solar Shield for that matter.
What about the exception from things that won't affect small arms?
So yes, I think that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare. And with Solar Shield for that matter.What about the exception from things that won't affect small arms?
You mean this text here:
it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
That is even more ambiguous. Off the cuff, I see two ways of reading that.
First:
it can't gain any:
* weapon special property
* critical hit effect
* weapon fusion
that can't be applied to a small arm.
Or:
it can't gain any:
* weapon special property
* critical hit effect
* weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm
.
In the first case it looks like it is restricting the effects allowed to be applied to a Solar Flare to be effects that are normally able to affect small arm weapons. This prevents adding effects like knockdown or something similar.
In the second case, it prevents all special properties and critical hit effects at all. It only allows weapon fusions that can be applied to a small arm.
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Language semantics aside:
What I find most odd about that last clause 'it can't gain any ... weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm' is that a Solar Flare also can't gain any weapon fusion that can be applied to a small arm either. Weapon fusions can't be applied to a Solar Manifestation.
So what is the intent with this?
In my RAI reading of the entire sentence 'Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.' is that it is trying to prevent effects from existing Solar Weapon Crystals that are not applicable to a ranged weapon, such as the Graviton Crystal that adds a knockdown critical hit effect. So (as far as I know) knockdown isn't permitted on a small arm, the Graviton Crystal wouldn't work on a Solar Flare even though a Solar Flare can generally use weapon crystals.
That is my understanding of the meaning of that restriction clause.
That is even more ambiguous. Off the cuff, I see two ways of reading that.
Since the weapon fusion is whats under discussion, both ways of reading it give the same result.
Either it can't gain a weapon fusion at all (in which case it can't get soul fire) or It can't gain (a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm) in which case.. it can't gain soul fire. You don't just need to argue ambiguity in the text (although I don't think there's much to be argued there between the two meanings) you also need ambiguity between a yes and no answer on soulfire, which your different readings here don't provide.
What I find most odd about that last clause 'it can't gain any ... weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm' is that a Solar Flare also can't gain any weapon fusion that can be applied to a small arm either. Weapon fusions can't be applied to a Solar Manifestation.
No.
It has been clarified that you can put fusions on the solarion crystal, and assuming the devs are not jerkass genies or math teachers, they can be put on the crystal AND then work with the solar manifestation they make. (and not just be more useful in bashing someone in the head with a pretty shiny rock)
This is why we keep saying you can't read the sentence to include the pew pew lasers working with soulfire without tossing the baby out with the bath water.
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No.It has been clarified that you can put fusions on the solarion crystal, and assuming the devs are not jerkass genies or math teachers, they can be put on the crystal AND then work with the solar manifestation they make. (and not just be more useful in bashing someone in the head with a pretty shiny rock)
This is why we keep saying you can't read the sentence to include the pew pew lasers working with soulfire without tossing the baby out with the bath water.
Yeah but this is where the leap of logic into the abyss happens. First you have to accept the fudge that the devs admitted to that lets you apply fusions to crystals at all. Then you get Soulfire which is a fusion which can only ever be applied to crystals. But when you then get Solar Flare and the author saying it's intended to be possible, you grind to a halt on the technicalities.
But if you want to be technical about it, this topic is "clarification of intent", and the intent of the author is clear. If the devs remain silent, then the author is all you have to get by for intent.
Either it can't gain a weapon fusion at all (in which case it can't get soul fire) or It can't gain (a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm) in which case.. it can't gain soul fire.
Hold up there...
It has been clarified that you can put fusions on the solarion crystal, and assuming the devs are not jerkass genies or math teachers, they can be put on the crystal AND then work with the solar manifestation they make. (and not just be more useful in bashing someone in the head with a pretty shiny rock)
Exactly. Why shouldn't this affect Solar Flare also.
Either it (Solar Flare) can't gain a weapon fusion at all (in which case it can't get soulfire), or It can't gain (a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm) in which case.. it can't gain soul fire. it can gain the effects of a Solar Weapon Crystal (as the rules say it can) which has the Soulfire fusion applied to the crystal.
I'm not trying to put Soulfire directly on the Solar Flare.
I'm not trying to put Soulfire directly on the Solar Flare.
A The solar whack you thingy
B The crystal
c The
But you are trying to put the effect from the soulfire onto the flare without apparently stopping to check the legality between A and C
This doesn't work unless you can dance between the ideas of "Im putting the fusion on the crystal" and "I'm putting the fusion on the weapon"
it can gain the effects of a Solar Weapon Crystal (as the rules say it can) which has the Soulfire fusion applied to the crystal.
If this was the case that you didn't need to check for compatibility between the flare and the fusions effect the prohibition would be entirely meaningless because it could never work.
Yeah but this is where the leap of logic into the abyss happens. First you have to accept the fudge that the devs admitted to that lets you apply fusions to crystals at all.
Which is a common sense, non technical answer that the rules use most of the time.
Then you get Soulfire which is a fusion which can only ever be applied to crystals. But when you then get Solar Flare and the author saying it's intended to be possible, you grind to a halt on the technicalities.
There's two problems with that idea.
1) I'm not seeing ANY kind of wording ambiguity here. Technical, non technical, both break the idea. If I keep the persnicket level consistent the result is a no.
2) We're not just dealing with something the author wrote, we're also dealing with its interaction with another thing out in the system.
But if you want to be technical about it, this topic is "clarification of intent", and the intent of the author is clear. If the devs remain silent, then the author is all you have to get by for intent.
point 2 in particalar works against that idea
Soulfire works a little differently than how other fusions work with a solar weapon. Does everyone agree with that?
No. It works the same it just spells out the difference.
The first viewpoint could be summarized as: Flare doesn't get to pretend its a solar weapon for (crit|prop|fusion) that only affect solar weapon, because a small arm isn't a solar weapon.
The second viewpoint could be summarized as: For crit|prop|fusion, flare is treated identically to the solar weapon, with one exception: it is a small arm rather than an advanced melee weapon.
Pretty much.
Somehow the developers are supposed to see the future and write their rules accordingly. Because if there is any addition of subtypes to things like Solar Manifestation, then all of the other existing rules stop working the way they are intended to.
So when the Soulfire fusion says
When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal
it must obviously be referencing specifically the Solar Weapon Manifestation, not any weaponized Solar Manifestation such as Solar Flare.
So when the Soulfire fusion says
When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystalit must obviously be referencing specifically the Solar Weapon Manifestation, not any weaponized Solar Manifestation such as Solar Flare.
The italicized part ignores that quote.
Anything that specifcally afects solar weapons (such as
solarian weapon crystals) afects your solar fare in the same
way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical
hit efect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
The bolded part makes it still not work. Though writer (not developer) intent was that it would work.
It is still ambiguous.
In the case of the rules text for Solar Flare and how that interacts with Soulfire, it becomes contradictory. It depends on which of these two clauses takes priority.
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
or
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
The first says that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare, the seconds says that it shouldn't.
I'm not trying to say that the rules reading that prevents Soulfire on a Solar Flare is wrong. I'm saying that the rules reading that allows Soulfire on a Solar Flare is also valid. That is what ambiguous means. There is more than one valid interpretation.
Here is another attempt to summarize this alternate reading:
Soulfire specifically says that it affects solar weapon. Solar Flare specifically says that anything that affects a solar weapon affects the Solar Flare in the same way. This specific rule set overrides the general rule in Solar Flare preventing applying weapon fusions that can't affect a small arm weapon.
There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.
.
Is this the understood process for fusions interacting with solar
This isn't even wrong.
At no point in the process is the idea to make a hard set of rules that you then follow like a jerkass genie. (and even THEN get wrong because soulfire specifically points out that it goes on the crystal but applies to the weapon)
At no point is the idea to turn a very complicated and straightforward process into an idea so complicated it breaks, and then blame the original idea rather than the rube goldberg process read into it.
You're relying on the idea that there is something different about the soulfire fusion when I'm telling you its the same It's just worded differently. You cannot change that premise and then claim its an internal contradiction with my reasoning. Which is what you're doing here
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.", solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so the fusion doesn't work.
The fusion is made to go on a solar weapon. you check legality with the solar weapon. Its fine.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a.. no wait.
If you cannot put the fusion on a hand cannon, it won't work with solar flare.
Soulfire won't work with a hand cannon
It won't work on solar flare.
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How is your argument regarding flare different from this? You are disregarding the text of how soulfire checks compatibility.
No for two reasons.
One, for at least the fifth time, soulfire is written to spell out it absolutely works with solar weapons at a time when people weren't sure solar weapons could get fusions. That wording does NOT create any difference in the effect, at all, about how it works. Arguing for a difference means that no fusion BUT soulfire works on solar weapons.
Two, The restrictions on the solar flare are clearly more specific than the allowances (they would be entirely meaningless if they weren't). Solar flare is NOT a solar weapon. The part that allows
the solar flare to get something that only goes on a solar weapon specifically denies anything that won't go on a small arm.
The only way for something to be more specific than solar flares restriction is to specifically mention solar flare and.. it doesn't. Time travel not being invented yet...
Soulfire CAN hop on a weapon crystal. It can go to a solar weapon. It CAN"T get to the solar flare. The ability to jump from solar weapon to solar flare is dependent on being able to go on a small-arm.
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The first says that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare, the seconds says that it shouldn't.
It's one sentence, and the clauses are not contradictory. The second half is a clarification of the first.
For example, a solarian weapon crystal (and the weapon it's attached to) can gain these effects:
The defending fusion
The soulfire fusion
The menacing fusion
The throwing fusion
The block special property
The reach special property
The shell special property
The ', though it can't gain' excludes those effects from the solar flare with that same crystal getting those effects.
Viewpoint 2 says "can this fusion be applied to a small arm that is treated as a solar weapon with regard to weapon crystals", and the answer is yes--the only requirement for the soulfire fusion to work is that it is fused to a crystal, and that crystal is augmenting a solar weapon.
This is more than a mite circular.
And completely ignores why people say it doesn't work
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If a fusion said "this can only go on weapons that deal fire damage" you wouldn't say "a small arm is not necessarily a weapon that deals fire damage, so it doesn't work". You would check whether the specific small arm you are applying it to does fire damage.
Similarly, when soulfire says "this works when you hit someone with a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal", you check this against flare, and this condition is met--the flare is a solar weapon augmented by the crystal.
You've skipped a step. You aren't checking if the fusion's effect works with a solar weapon, then applying the fusion.
You are checking if the fusion can be applied on a small arm, which it can't.
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Can I source this thread for my Advanced English Language Theory class?
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Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...
EXCEPT things that won't work on small arms.
This is more than a mite circular.
And completely ignores why people say it doesn't work
Hmm..... Actually, I think that is because of the nature of the contention.
What is under contention is the meaning of 'solar weapon' in the Soulfire rules. Does it mean just Solar Weapon, or any solar weapon? Also the specifics of the restrictions on Solar Flare.
But with those being ambiguous (or being considered ambiguous), the meanings of those have to be decided on in order to come to a conclusion. And the conclusion is rather fixed once those are decided on.
So to someone who reads those points under contention differently, it will feel like they are being decided on by axiom. They become an assumption in the logic that forms the conclusion.
So it always feels like circular logic to someone who reads those contended points differently.
From both sides.
And that is just the nature of ambiguity.
Can I source this thread for my Advanced English Language Theory class?
Might be a fun topic for the teacher.
When you check if a fusion's effect works (with any weapon), you check that all of the fusion's requirements are met.
No. I would assert that you check if a fusion can be applied to a small arm first and only. Then you apply it, and then check if it does anything. Such as fusions that only work with weapons that deal bludgeoning damage.
After all, you can have a defending fusion on a solar crystal affecting a solar weapon, then using extra manifestation, turn that weapon into a flare, and the fusion ceases to work.
There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.
I'm failing to parse this one.
No, there isn't an 'or'. But there is a 'though'.
And with Soulfire we have an item that does work on Solar Manifestations, but doesn't work on small arms. So why does the restriction take precedence? Why not the permission? There are plenty of other things that the restriction is restricting. So the restriction isn't unnecessary even if it doesn't apply to Soulfire.
i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?
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There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.
I'm failing to parse this one.
No, there isn't an 'or'. But there is a 'though'.
And with Soulfire we have an item that does work on Solar Manifestations, but doesn't work on small arms. So why does the restriction take precedence? Why not the permission? There are plenty of other things that the restriction is restricting. So the restriction isn't unnecessary even if it doesn't apply to Soulfire.
i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?
Soulfire fusions work on solarian weapon crystals. They do not work on small arms.
Therefore, they do not work on solar flare manifestations, despite writer intent.
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i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?
1) that's how the sentence is written.
Look, I'm all for reading things two different ways. Most of our conversations are picking apart between reading A and reading B. But this sentence as written drops that reading out like an F(x) problem.
2) there's no point putting restrictions on something that you can evade. There is no point for the words being there unless they restrict the first part of the sentence, they're meaningless.
I personal preferences for the RESULT is a mild no.
If they decide to say that we intended a larger view "no nonsensical stuff on the finger lasers" I'm fine with that. But I don't think you can get there from the wording
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This might not make total sense to people, but this sentence is essentially an AND logic gate:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
italic = input A
bold = input B.Soulfire is a fusion that affects a solar weapon. A = TRUE
Souflire is a fusion that cannot affect a small arm. B = FALSE
A B = Output (T/F)
F F = F
T F = F
F T = F
T T = T
In this scenario, A is true, and B is false, therefore, the AND gate outputs FALSE, the soulfire fusion does not apply.