Why can't witches choose the divine tradition?

[Charon Onozuka]

Rysky wrote:

Quote:

Demigods grant divine magic to followers. Demigods are not deities... So why is a not-deity able to grant magic when that is the definition you proposed for being a deity?

… demigods are indeed deities.

Demigod is basically a mechanical term meaning lower powered deity with stats that can be killed.

You said being super powerful had nothing to do with being a deity, so why are demigods not just listed as weak deities then? Looking at the list of demigods, calling them Planar Deities would have worked fine too - it's not like other groups of deities don't have a modifier before the term. Yet instead, they get a completely different classification and even have things like Inner Sea Gods describing demigods as, "Somewhere between gods and mortals stand demigods: semidivine creatures with enormous power and obscure agendas." If demigods are "between gods & mortals," that would imply that they are part of neither - which would make them not deities... who still can grant divine magic.

[Also amusing note: rereading bits of Inner Sea Gods and noticed Razmir is grouped with and classified as a "lesser deity," despite apparently being a fake who can't actually grant magic. Dunno exactly what to make of that, but thought it was interesting & worth mentioning.]

A similar problem crops up in Mythic Rules. I remember you previously saying that was because PCs were becoming deities (which rereading Mythic blurbs - I do not see suggested anywhere and only see deities/divine beings directly mentioned in 2/5 example mythic ascensions & 1/6 mythic paths). But a mythic character from any of the 6 paths can choose to become a divine source as a 3rd tier path ability. This path ability mentions "You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause" and also, "You grant access to these domains as if you were a deity." This would seem to imply that you are not a deity despite granting spells (after all, even 10th tier mythic is described as "the height of mortal power"). So again, if granting divine magic is what makes you a deity - then why are these mythic characters only "like a deity" rather than being a (weak) PC deity?

Bandw2 wrote:

i had an interesting thought.

what if witches could choose their list but always cast as an occult caster... they use occult casting spell for everything.

Interesting, but I'd still be wondering how my Witch learned magic from an Arcane Dragon Patron and suddenly had those same spells swap tradition when the Witch cast them.

[Temperans]

Not all deities are creatures (see the Monad) and you have 2-3 different types of originally mortal gods: Ascended (Passed the Starstone test), Godlings (were made into deities by another deity, Ex: Nivi Rhombodazzle), and what I call the miscellaneous (those who became deities one way or another).

Btw about what I call the Miscellaneous. Nethys became a god by knowing everything about the planes (he went mad); Urgathoa probably became a deity when she managed to escape Pharasma; Xanderghul (a Wizard) appears to had become a deity due to finding a divine source and still managed to get himself killed (probably why deities dont meddle in mortal affairs); Irori is said to have gained deityhood through sheer training and enlightment; Ziphus meanwhile is said to had become a deity because of how he died; etc.
In other words, there are no clear ways on how to become a deity, but granting spells is one of their abilities.

[Rysky]

Quote:

You said being super powerful had nothing to do with being a deity, so why are demigods not just listed as weak deities then? Looking at the list of demigods, calling them Planar Deities would have worked fine too - it's not like other groups of deities don't have a modifier before the term. Yet instead, they get a completely different classification and even have things like Inner Sea Gods describing demigods as, "Somewhere between gods and mortals stand demigods: semidivine creatures with enormous power and obscure agendas." If demigods are "between gods & mortals," that would imply that they are part of neither - which would make them not deities... who still can grant divine magic.

I'm confused by your confusion.

Full deities/gods do not have statblocks.

You can be a super powerful being and not be a deity (the Tarrasque).

Demigods/lesser deities (like Treerazer) is a deity because they can grant divine magic. They can also be killed.

Quote:

So again, if granting divine magic is what makes you a deity - then why are these mythic characters only "like a deity" rather than being a (weak) PC deity?

Because that's just being pedantic?

DnD uses/used tiering of deities (lesser, intermediate, grater/ a number ranking), that's not something Paizo wanted to copy.

[Temperans]

They clearly didnt copy that (which is really good Golarion wouldnt be the same), besides acknowledging that some deities really are minor with few followers and/or concerns.

***************
Back to the witches, I agree that if the Patron has direct control of the Witch's spells than they should have some say on the spell list.

However, if all the Patron is doing is giving energy and hints ("hey try wiggling your fingers"), then I can see witches not getting the same spell list.

It all really depends on how the patron and spell list/s are flavored.

[Bandw2]

Rysky wrote:

Quote:

You said being super powerful had nothing to do with being a deity, so why are demigods not just listed as weak deities then? Looking at the list of demigods, calling them Planar Deities would have worked fine too - it's not like other groups of deities don't have a modifier before the term. Yet instead, they get a completely different classification and even have things like Inner Sea Gods describing demigods as, "Somewhere between gods and mortals stand demigods: semidivine creatures with enormous power and obscure agendas." If demigods are "between gods & mortals," that would imply that they are part of neither - which would make them not deities... who still can grant divine magic.

I'm confused by your confusion.

Full deities/gods do not have statblocks.

You can be a super powerful being and not be a deity (the Tarrasque).

Demigods/lesser deities (like Treerazer) is a deity because they can grant divine magic. They can also be killed.

Quote:

So again, if granting divine magic is what makes you a deity - then why are these mythic characters only "like a deity" rather than being a (weak) PC deity?

Because that's just being pedantic?

DnD uses/used tiering of deities (lesser, intermediate, grater/ a number ranking), that's not something Paizo wanted to copy.

i have to agree, this seems overly pedantic.

the Empyreal lords and the archdukes of hell can all grant spells, and are deities, but they're also demigods.

there are countless countless beings that can grant spells if you view the wider universe beyond golarion.

inner sea gods and the book of the damned have a ton of information on deities that aren't the big crazy ones most people worship.