Rogue Damage

[Krapgame]

I created a rogue on hero labs new hero builder and it is giving my rogue +4 damage with a finesse weapon. Now he does have an 18 dex, but from what i can tell, all finesse weapons use str for damage. His is a 12. So is Hero Lab wrong?

thanks in advance
Krap

[SuperBidi]

It depends on your Racket. If he's a Thief Rogue, then he uses Dexterity for damage.

[albadeon]

Thief Rogues get a special ability as part of their racket allowing them to use Dex instead of Str for selected weapons.

[Krapgame]

He is! That clears up so much. Thank you.

[Wheldrake]

Except when they throw those finesse weapons, apparently.

[albadeon]

Yes, throwing weapons across the room makes them significantly less melee. While I understand that people are unhappy with this clarification in the errata, personally I think it makes sense to treat thrown weapons like ranged weapons here (and actually, my dex-based gnome rogue has always used his 8 str instead of his 18 dex to calculate damage whenever he was throwing one of his daggers around even before the errata document was published).

If you wanted to apply the bonus to thrown weapons, why not ranged weapons as well?

[Claxon]

albadeon wrote:

Yes, throwing weapons across the room makes them significantly less melee. While I understand that people are unhappy with this clarification in the errata, personally I think it makes sense to treat thrown weapons like ranged weapons here (and actually, my dex-based gnome rogue has always used his 8 str instead of his 18 dex to calculate damage whenever he was throwing one of his daggers around even before the errata document was published).

If you wanted to apply the bonus to thrown weapons, why not ranged weapons as well?

I also assumed it wasn't intended to work that way even though the wording was previously loose enough to allow that interpretation.

Which is why my rogue has a bow in case he needs it. It's still better than throwing my daggers, though it is disappointing to work that way.

Perhaps rogues need a class feat to allow them to use thrown weapons with dex, and potentially get dex to damage. Maybe even just with daggers specifically.

Actually I can imagine a chain of dagger specific feats. One that lets you use dex to ranged attack rolls and damage. Another one that increases the range increment (perhaps to that of a shortbow). Maybe another one that lets you throw daggers around corners by thematically throwing a follow up dagger to change the course of the first, a la Naruto. Or change it's course by bouncing it off a wall. Or something.

[K1]

Claxon wrote:

Perhaps rogues need a class feat to allow them to use thrown weapons with dex, and potentially get dex to damage. Maybe even just with daggers specifically.

That would be the best deal.

Not a base one.
Not mandatory.
A possibility which enhance your gameplay radically given the damage boost.

[albadeon]

I think it's just a case of "you can't have everything you'd like". The Dex bonus to damage is pretty strong and I don't think this should be extended too much. My rogue has essentially left his daggers behind and is now mostly using his rapier with the occasional hand crossbow for ranged. I might look into Kukris now that they've been unlocked for gnomes, but more because I'd still like a second damage type other than P, not because I miss the range of thrown daggers.

But I'm sure we'll have some type of throwing knife specialist archetype for the type of dagger bounce around a corner you envision eventually, just give it a few more years... :)

[Wheldrake]

I haven't played one yet, but it looks like a better bet for rogues to use attack cantrips (through Minor Magic or MC Wizard dedication) than rely on thrown daggers. This said, I have to agree that placing some limits on DEX-to-damage attacks is a good thing.

[albadeon]

Or you can get access to those cantrips via Gnome ancestry heritage/feats ;). For now, I'm mostly using Guidance with that, but yes electric arc and others are always an option. The big issue with attack cantrips is that, unlike finesse melee/thrown weapons and ranged weapons, attack cantrips don't trigger your sneak attack bonus damage so they do start to fall behind weapon attacks (which can also additionally be using runes and/or poison) in pure damage output quite quickly. But it's all based on the exact conditions.

At 5th level, that heightened electric arc for 3d4 electric damage against 2 enemies with no attack roll could quite possibly save the day under the right conditions. But in most cases, I'd prefer the 4d6+4 from my +1 striking rapier (or 4d6 from my +1 striking hand crossbow) against a flat-footed opponent, even if it's only single target and I have to roll an attack...

[Zabraxis]

albadeon wrote:

The big issue with attack cantrips is that, unlike finesse melee/thrown weapons and ranged weapons, attack cantrips don't trigger your sneak attack bonus damage so they do start to fall behind weapon attacks (which can also additionally be using runes and/or poison) in pure damage output quite quickly. But it's all based on the exact conditions.

Magical Trickster lets you attack w/ spells (cantrips included.)

[albadeon]

Ah, okay, nice. Thx for the info, I'll take that into account :).

[Atavist]

Could probably just have a feat allowing it with certain weapons.

One of my players was gung ho about playing a rogue in 1e and disappointed at knife throwing.

[Twilight2k]

Maybe it's just me but it makes no sense to me that a thrown dagger has the exact same mechanics as a composite longbow. It made far more sense to me when finesse thrown weapons could add Dex to damage. If nothing else, all finesse thrown weapons are 1d4 damage and have a range of 10' (simple) or 20' (martial). I can't see how that was remotely game-breaking...