My fellow players and I have a debate as we're working on building a tier 11 ship. Which do you feel is better: M10 Thrusters (10 hex movement, +0 Piloting) or M12 (12 hex, -1 Piloting)?
Underlying Assumption: Ship is equipped with long-range weapons.
In favor of the M10: No Piloting roll penalty, so you're more likely to win piloting checks (initiative) and succeed at stunts and maneuvering. Flak cannons can help deal with any incoming missiles that managed to close the distance, and winning the initiative helps keep them pointed the right way.
In favor of the M12: The extra speed will help keep you at a range beyond the enemy's initial missile envelope and perhaps other weapons as well. If you're outside the first missile envelop, that means they have to roll at least twice to hit you to maintain the TL. Dump the flak cannons and use the BP for something else.
Curious to hear the hivemind's thoughts. Thanks!
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Personally, I'd go with the speed. Gaining a +1 (or more) to Piloting checks is a lot easier (through feats and/or theme and class bonuses) than increasing the ship's speed (Sky Jockey is about it).
At my table I house ruled that if you have M12 thrusters you only take the -1 penalty if you move more than 10 hexes. This -1 would penalty would carry over to the next rounds initiative check if you moved more than 10 hexes in the preceding round.
It makes no sense to me to be penalized for moving 12 hexes even when you move 10 or less.
Our choice is speed. There is no piloting check to move full blast away from the enemy in straight line while withdrawing.
The extra two hexes could be a lifesaver.
This is a damn fine question and one I've debated myself.
Winning the piloting check is a very powerful thing and lets me (the pilot) control the engagement a lot via respective shield facings. I've rarely been in a position where I needed the extra speed, but always want to win the check. So even for the -1, I'm disinclined to take the penalty.
A "hilariously easy" example:
Damaya lashunta (Piloting as one of the Student skills) ace pilot mystic (star shaman); 10 Str, 16 Dex, 8 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wiz, 12 Cha at 1st level
1st- Piloting +10 (1 rank +2 race +1 theme +3 class skill +3 Dex)
5th (with Personal Upgrade/+2 Dex)- Piloting +18 (5 ranks +2 race +1 theme +3 class skill +5 Dex +2 insight)
10th (with Personal Upgrades/+4 Dex, +2 Wis)- Piloting +25 (10 ranks +2 race +1 theme +3 class skill +6 Dex +3 insight)
15th (with Personal Upgrades/+6 Dex, +4 Wis)- Piloting +34 (15 ranks +2 race +1 theme +3 class skill +8 Dex +5 insight)
20th (with Personal Upgrades/+6 Dex, +4 Wis)- Piloting +41 (20 ranks +2 race +1 theme +3 class skill +8 Dex +7 insight)
Even going with Wis, then Dex personal upgrades only drops the Piloting skill bonus to +17 at 5th, +24 at 10th, +33 at 15th, and +40 at 20th.
Looking at absolute numbers has little meaning - it's an opposed check. If the enemy starship pilot is statted appropriately, they'll be competitive. From my experience in the adventure paths, you don't always win.
In our games we've found better piloting checks to be better than high speed. Winning initiative allows for better positioning than high speed IMO.
High speed, no question for me. Outrun missiles, flee combat, catch up to targets before they dock, hit-and-run, circle and group targets for easier battlefield control...
If it was purely about static, 1v1 fights the hit to piloting would be more of a concern. The RP value of having a substantial speed improvement is really hard to ignore.
If we were in a massive battleship, though, I wouldn't care about speed nearly as much.
Yeah, I think this decision relies heavily on what kind of starship combat you're doing. In empty space where you're dogfighting with a single enemy that roughly matches your ship, the extra piloting edge might be worth it. But whenever the combat is more complicated - where there are obstacles, where you're in a chase with another ship, when the combat is lopsided, anytime you have to cover a lot of distance such as when you're escaping something - all these situations give the higher base speed the edge.
In general, I think the higher speed is worth a lot more than a measly +1 to piloting.
Looking at absolute numbers has little meaning - it's an opposed check. If the enemy starship pilot is statted appropriately, they'll be competitive. From my experience in the adventure paths, you don't always win.
If the GM always makes the enemy "competitive" then the +1 to piloting "has little meaning" as much as "absolute numbers."
Going by the example starships, which represent the baseline for starship combat:
%20Attack%20of%20the%20Swarm!"]Suskillon Whip (Tier 5): Piloting +16 vs. my example Piloting +18
Barrow Reaper (Tier 10): Piloting +24 vs. my example Piloting +25
Raxilite Crown Canopy (Tier 15): Piloting 30 vs. my example Piloting +34
%20Dead%20Suns"]Blackwind Annihilator (Tier 20): Piloting +34 vs. my example Piloting +41
Also, note that Designing Starship Encounters explicitly states: "Combat between starships of equal tiers is more evenly matched than a fight between PCs and opponents of an equal CR. Usually, there is only one PC ship in the fight, containing the entire party. This means that if the battle is lost, the PCs might be taken captive or perish. As a result, starship combats where the PCs face off against a ship of equal tier and capability are very difficult. Most encounters should be against ships of a lower tier." (emphasis mine)
Definitely appreciating everyone's thoughts and contributions.
Dueling maxims: "Speed is life" versus "Initiative is king".
FWIW, game is homebrew, so stating of the enemy pilots is really up in the air.