Charging mount + Thrown weapon

[kyubi3009]

This may sound like a weird question but can the rider of a charging mount do a full attack with a thrown weapon?

[CMantle]

kyubi3009 wrote:

This may sound like a weird question but can the rider of a charging mount do a full attack with a thrown weapon?

Yes because they’re ranged attacks.

“You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.”

The mount is charging and grants you the normal bonuses on your melee attack for charging, but does not restrict you into a charge action, only the mount is taking the charge action. However you don’t get the attack bonus for charge with your ranger attacks.

[LordKailas]

If your mount is taking the charge action (as opposed to simply double moving or taking a move action and attacking) as per this FAQ your character is also considered to be taking the charge action (which is typically a full round action). If you have the ability to make a full attack with ranged weapons while charging then you would still be able to make use of said ability. Otherwise, you're character is now charging same as the mount.

For example, abilities like Hurling Charge could still be used normally when performing a mounted charge.

edit: Just found this additional statement which seems to state that you can in fact have your mount charge independent of your actions. Just that you don't benefit from the charge if you do.

[CMantle]

I don’t think I’d ever seen either of those linked responses, I’ll have to save those somewhere for the future. Just to make sure I understood them after my quick read, you *can* still take full round actions (or a move and standard) if your mount charges, you just don’t gain the benefits of a mounted charge unless you *also* take the charge action?

To ask on top of that, you still take the -2 AC right?

[Derklord]

CMantle wrote:

To ask on top of that, you still take the -2 AC right?

I think that section in the CRB is supposed to only talk about the "both of you are charging" situation, but strict RAW, you do get the penalty. Of course, the mounted combat rules are a complete nightmare, and thus this kinda boils down to "ask your GM". Not the least because combining a ranged attack with a mount's charge is not covered by the rules. At all. It's a more extreme movement than a double move, but not even mentioned among the penalties for ranged attacks while the mount is moving.

Seriously, it's like they were trying to be as unclear as possible.

[Wonderstell]

CMantle wrote:

To ask on top of that, you still take the -2 AC right?

Eeeeh...

For some reason both SRD and Archives refuses to update the rules on mounted combat as per the FAQ, which doesn't exactly help to clear up the confusion about mounted combat. But you are supposed to replace the third paragraph of the 'Combat While Mounted' section of the CRB, which means that the paragraph dealing with the AC penalty disappears.

third paragraph of the 'Combat While Mounted' section wrote:

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.

The old rules stating that you take the AC penalty (when only your mount charges) are now gone, so you don't.

[Dave Justus]

Wonderstell wrote:

The old rules stating that you take the AC penalty (when only your mount charges) are now gone, so you don't.

The 'old rules' implied that you were not charging, only your mount was. The new rules say both of you are charging, and therefore the regular bonuses and penalties for a charge would apply.

It is unclear if your mount can charge while you do not (i.e. you take actions other than the charge action while your mount takes the charge action) and what penalties would apply if you did.

[Wonderstell]

Dave Justus wrote:

Wonderstell wrote:

The old rules stating that you take the AC penalty (when only your mount charges) are now gone, so you don't.

The 'old rules' implied that you were not charging, only your mount was. The new rules say both of you are charging, and therefore the regular bonuses and penalties for a charge would apply.

The question CMantle asked, when put in context of the thread, was:

"do I still take the AC penalty from charging when only my mount charges?"

That's the question I answered, but to avoid any confusion I clarified I was only talking about the specific situation where the mount is the only one charging.

Wonderstell wrote:

The old rules stating that you take the AC penalty (when only your mount charges) are now gone, so you don't.

====

Dave Justus wrote:

It is unclear if your mount can charge while you do not (i.e. you take actions other than the charge action while your mount takes the charge action) and what penalties would apply if you did.

We have designer input from those who were involved in the linked FAQ stating that yes, indeed, your mount can charge independent of your actions. If you read the last sentence of the first paragraph of the linked FAQ, you'll get further proof that it is possible.

Quote:

Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.

So it is very clear that your mount can use their actions to charge while you do not. It is however not a "Mounted Charge" if you do not also charge.

Since the old 'Combat While Mounted' rules have changed, you'd refer to the general rules for charging if you want to see what penalties would apply.
In this case the rider is not taking the charge action, so they would not suffer any AC penalty. Simple as that.

[Derklord]

I shouldn't post late at night. Wonderstell is correct, you don't get the penalty if only the mount charges, because post-FAQ, there is no rule that says you do.

The question of a range attack penalty is sadly left unanswered.

[CMantle]

I would imagine that ranged attacks take the penalty associated with charging according to their movement distance. If the mount only moves up to its speed on the charge, then the rider takes no penalty on its ranged attacks, if the mount moves more than its speed, up to double its speed, rider takes a -4, if somehow the mount can move more than double its speed on a charge, the rider takes a -8.

This isn't anywhere RAW, but I'm drawing my opinion based on precedent from the lines in mounted combat about ranged attacks on a "quickly moving" mount:

"You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."

And I'm drawing from the charge rules, where there is some indication that it is "easier" to charge only up to your speed, as opposed to double your speed, since if you only move up to your speed you can also draw a weapon as part of the charge (but cannot draw a weapon as part of a charge where you move any more than your speed (without quickdraw)). The quote below is taken from the "movement during a charge" rules:

"If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1."

This obviously has nothing to do with ranged attacks, but personally I think these two together serve as a standard for balancing for a good way to rule it. Obviously if there's any official ruling on this that I just overlooked, completely disregard what I've said.